[hypnos1]

Hi bt, sorry you are still having problems with those tubes. I am using the ones that H sold me, since they were a little microphonic he put the rubber rings on them and I have not had any noise from them at all. If you should decide you are not going to use them, please keep us in mind here. Wish you luck with them, a very worthwhile tube to have. Did you have a chance to try them as drivers as well as powers? I still have not gotten around to doing that, they sound so good as drivers have not got around to it yet. I also made a nice addition to my system, I bought a Furman Linear Power Conditioner, and that made a very nice change, lowered the noise floor to zero, on all inputs. Well worth the price.

Hi cf.

Glad to hear those tubes are still doing fine with those rubber rings. Not all microphonic tubes can be remedied of course, regardless of method used, but it's certainly always worth a try...nothing to lose, all to possibly gain lol!

So you too have discovered the benefits of mains electricity filtering/conditioning? WELL DONE! The improvements in overall sound reproduction are very clear (to most!!)...despite no obvious 'nasties' in the mains supply. Now your EL38s will perform even better, of that I'm quite sure . And your Furman does look very good value-for-money....ENJOY!...

 

[barontan2418]

They do look pretty ropey don't they, maybe the prototype? Anyway not too expensive and I believe I've kept them too long for a refund. Just put it down to experience and soldier on. By the way as many have said before me you've done a great job with this thread and inspired me to re- examine my bounderies which in turn has increased my musical enjoyment. So thanks for your advice and enthusiasm.

 

[connieflyer]

Hi H, the Furman has made a believer out of me, running the media off the PC, even with a great power supply and JRiver, and Gumby the power supplies on the pc and the NAS are switching and even though I thought my system was quiet, when connecting everything back to the Furman made such a difference. Funny, I had listened to the phones with nothing playing before and heard no sound at all, so assumed it was quiet. But once the Furman was in the circuit, could tell, it was a total almost inky blackness. Now all the sound comes up from the darkness. Well worth the price. Amazon had it at a reduced price , and with their guarranty was not concerned. If anyone is on the fence, I would recommend the unit or one with similar specs.

 

[hypnos1]

They do look pretty ropey don't they, maybe the prototype? Anyway not too expensive and I believe I've kept them too long for a refund. Just put it down to experience and soldier on. By the way as many have said before me you've done a great job with this thread and inspired me to re- examine my bounderies which in turn has increased my musical enjoyment. So thanks for your advice and enthusiasm.

And thanks for your kind words, bt.

Glad you used the word 'ropey' lol! ...can't believe they would have been from the Mullard/Philips (Europe) stable...(any ideas @Oskari ?).

And by the way, when I suspected microphonics in those tubes, and before using the rings, I pinched (hard) around the tubes' bottoms with thumb and finger, which reduced the noise enough to indicate the problem...(mind you, they were in the driver slot and hadn't been on long, so not too hot lol! Otherwise, gloves would be safer!! ). Still hoping they're retrievable......CJ

 

[barontan2418]

And thanks for your kind words, bt.

Glad you used the word 'ropey' lol! ...can't believe they would have been from the Mullard/Philips (Europe) stable...(any ideas @Oskari ?).

And by the way, when I suspected microphonics in those tubes, and before using the rings, I pinched (hard) around the tubes' bottoms with thumb and finger, which reduced the noise enough to indicate the problem...(mind you, they were in the driver slot and hadn't been on long, so not too hot lol! Otherwise, gloves would be safer!! ). Still hoping they're retrievable......CJ

From what I could find on-line United made their own tubes until around 1948 and then farmed out to far east and Europe. An American company still to be found in name only but brought out some time ago. I thought that as these tubes have no other numerical /manufactures codes that they might be the originals from 1948 era but I could well be wrong. I'm listening to Sarah McKenzie at the moment with a quad of well used Mullards and she is sounding superb and with totally black background. Good enough for me.

 

[hypnos1]

From what I could find on-line United made their own tubes until around 1948 and then farmed out to far east and Europe. An American company still to be found in name only but brought out some time ago. I thought that as these tubes have no other numerical /manufactures codes that they might be the originals from 1948 era but I could well be wrong. I'm listening to Sarah McKenzie at the moment with a quad of well used Mullards and she is sounding superb and with totally black background. Good enough for me.

Sure enough, bt...returning to all-Mullard (later) tubes is certainly no climb down lol! ...and they'll definitely have a much longer life, to be sure . And that there's still some around at silly (cheap!) prices for such a wonderful tube is very encouraging indeed....

If you should want to give those Uniteds another try any time, I first used a stout elastic band around the tubes before the permanent 'O' rings...a good test to see if it's worth going any further...(but only a temporary remedy of course lol!).

Now then guys, further to my recent assessment of the Dario versions of the EL38, I can pretty well confirm that they do indeed have a bit more 'edginess' over the other versions, and so might not be the best for bright systems/ears...unless you have a Chord Hugo2 DAC! I don't normally like any 'filtering' of sound output (unless by tubes lol!), preferring it 'straight', like my brandy - Hennessy XO, if someone else is buying (so be warned bt if ever I'm up Leeds way! ). However, I thought I'd give Rob Watts's filters a try out of curiosity, and his setting that retains full detail handling but with slight treble roll-off hit the mark perfectly. No more hint of harshness, and no appreciable loss of sparkle, detail or soundstage...wonderful! And as an added bonus, I was able to turn up the volume a tad, with the benefits this can bring...and without a return of said 'edge'. Then, at the press of a button, I can reset to 'Dave' setting for tracks that actually need that bit of extra energy...so the best of both worlds lol...and without having to keep swapping tubes to suit - something I avoid at all costs, for various reasons. In other words, the Darios can stay put...and no-one else is going to get their hands on 'em...sorry!! ...CJ

 

[Oskari]

Glad you used the word 'ropey' lol! ...can't believe they would have been from the Mullard/Philips (Europe) stable...(any ideas @Oskari ?).

I've been wondering myself but have no theory yet. I'll let you know if that changes.

 

[hypnos1]

I've been wondering myself but have no theory yet. I'll let you know if that changes.

Thanks O...and if you don't have the final answer yet, no-one has lol! ...(perhaps @barontan2418 's suspicion is a good possibility - that they were indeed a doomed American trial at producing the EL38?). So any new light on the subject would be interesting indeed, mon ami...

Whatever, I'm becoming more and more convinced that Philips/Mullard realised fairly quickly that this tube needed quite an overhaul to make it more reliable...hence the scarcity of these earlier versions and the more rugged-looking later ones, complete with ceramic post insulators in a smaller bottle, a la EL37, and upgraded (gold) signal grid wires...(btw, concerning said wires, I was surprised to find that the earlier tubes - not the later clear glass ones - have two going to the signal pin...something I've never before noticed in a pentode...interesting! ).

Now then folks...as an adjunct to my recent comments on 'taming' the slight edgy nature of the Dario EL38 with certain recordings, by using Hugo2's least intrusive filter, I have found that it does in fact also take away a slight amount of information related to spatial 'airiness' and sharpness of attack...both to treble and bass/mid frequencies. This is pretty well inevitable when playing around with treble especially, and in a highly resolving setup, so...no filter for me, unless absolutely necessary lol!

I suppose this comes down to the sort of choice we all have to make when choosing not only the tubes we prefer, but also every other part of the system....no wonder most of us just can't avoid falling down that bottomless rabbit hole! Finding the right combination that satisfies nearly all our heart's desires is a mammoth task indeed...especially as our tastes can change over time, not to mention the effects of ageing on our poor ears!! . And so I wish you all the very best of luck in this endeavour!

As for myself, the Dario EL38s - as partners to Euforia and the rest of my gear - have come closest so far to satisfying my own desires...perhaps!...(I wonder if 2x Darios driving 2x 'all black' balloon powers might actually remove the need for any occasional filtering?!!...hmmmm...must get working on my last two lol! )...CHEERS!...CJ.

 

[connieflyer]

WAIT! You say you have old ears? Blasphemy! I know how that goes. Sorry you can not use the filter that at first sounded better, but I have found that to be true as well. Interesting idea about using 2 Darios and 2 balloon tubes, that might just change the sound enough to lesson the slight brightness of the Darios. Did you try the old remedy that used to work well for me,when I was younger? When things did not seem to sound right, I would have a double scotch, and keep adjusting that until everything sounded just right again. And it is not permanent! So you might have to try it the next night as well. Henesey would make it just smooth enough, me thinks.

 

[connieflyer]

Hi BT, I tried swapping out the balloon tubes from the driver position to the power slot last night. Listened for a few hours that way, and came to the conclusion, that, for my system at least, it sounded a little different . Went back to the balloon tubes in the driver position, and like that much better. In the power slot, the balloon tubes sounded a little more bassy, and a little less clear. That was my impression last night and after swapping them back this morning, confirmed, at least in my system, it was better as drivers. The balloon tubes seem to have a little more bass and that is emphasized in the power slot. If you have not tried to swap the tubes, you should give it a try and see what it sounds like.

 

[hypnos1]

WAIT! You say you have old ears? Blasphemy! I know how that goes. Sorry you can not use the filter that at first sounded better, but I have found that to be true as well. Interesting idea about using 2 Darios and 2 balloon tubes, that might just change the sound enough to lesson the slight brightness of the Darios. Did you try the old remedy that used to work well for me,when I was younger? When things did not seem to sound right, I would have a double scotch, and keep adjusting that until everything sounded just right again. And it is not permanent! So you might have to try it the next night as well. Henesey would make it just smooth enough, me thinks.

Hi cf.
Yo...ears might be getting a bit old, but hopefully years of analytical scrutiny (and education!) of subtle - and not-so-subtle - sounds help to make up for it lol?!! ...(But your remedy of using Hennessy (XO!) sounds a darned good assistant, even if not permanent...but certainly a darn sight more expensive, alas! However, smooth is the operative word...).

And speaking of smooth, that ploy I mentioned of replacing 2 of the Darios (as powers) with Philips 'balloons' just might do the trick. While checking my last NOS and near-NOS ones from Holland before surgery, the sound is already looking promising. But it's a way off being sure as yet, of course...However, logic would point to a positive result - especially as they would probably be a tad lighter in the 'energy' stakes as powers, but without the downside of filtering. So stay tuned......

ps. Both these Philips EL38s were silent as the grave (background!) right from the off...no hiss/rustle/crackle/squeak/ping/plop from either of them...phew!! ...(obviously treated with care in the past! )...CJ

 

[barontan2418]

Hi BT, I tried swapping out the balloon tubes from the driver position to the power slot last night. Listened for a few hours that way, and came to the conclusion, that, for my system at least, it sounded a little different . Went back to the balloon tubes in the driver position, and like that much better. In the power slot, the balloon tubes sounded a little more bassy, and a little less clear. That was my impression last night and after swapping them back this morning, confirmed, at least in my system, it was better as drivers. The balloon tubes seem to have a little more bass and that is emphasized in the power slot. If you have not tried to swap the tubes, you should give it a try and see what it sounds like.

Hi connieflyer
With the balloon tubes as drivers I get noise ( these are two new balloon tubes) whilst using them as power tubes all is back in order and quiet. I've not noticed any adverse effects on the bass as yet. I'm nowhere near as experienced as you at picking up on subtle differences in the presentation of music and have found it even more difficult as all the combinations since the EL32 have been so good. However the main thing is I'm completely happy with this present set-up as proved during my 2 hour session with Fleetwood Mac last night, they have never sounded so good.

 

[hypnos1]

Hi BT, I tried swapping out the balloon tubes from the driver position to the power slot last night. Listened for a few hours that way, and came to the conclusion, that, for my system at least, it sounded a little different . Went back to the balloon tubes in the driver position, and like that much better. In the power slot, the balloon tubes sounded a little more bassy, and a little less clear. That was my impression last night and after swapping them back this morning, confirmed, at least in my system, it was better as drivers. The balloon tubes seem to have a little more bass and that is emphasized in the power slot. If you have not tried to swap the tubes, you should give it a try and see what it sounds like.

Hey cf...this idea of swapping tubes around to 'fine tune' the sound from our tube amps is one I'm sure more folks could benefit from...and not just 'front to back' lol!

I first discovered that it was in fact possible - against all accepted wisdom - to 'mix and match' tubes even strictly from different families so that the 'whole is better than the sum of the parts', way back in Elise days...ie. the FDD20 with the ECC31, and which worked for most folks (the ECC31 being rather heavy in the bass department!!).

Anyway, fast forward to today, and although within the same family - which is much more likely to succeed, of course - my hunch that altering the mix by substituting one or more Dario EL38s for the Philips 'balloon' version might achieve what I was looking for is turning out more successful than anticipated. And this is with just one Philips as substitute in the power role! Even after just several hours in my testing adapter, that 'edginess' I mentioned previously has gone...and without any sacrifice elsewhere whatsoever...unlike trying to achieve the same thing via non-tube electronic filtering (via the Hugo2). And which has confirmed once and for all (for me anyway!) the superiority of such fine tuning via tubes lol! ...and hence my wish that more folks would experiment with altering their final sound output to suit using this method...especially with intimate knowledge of a particular tube's characteristics, and its shortcomings (no single tube on this planet can really tick all the boxes 100%!!).

And, of course, trial and error will also be needed...results may not always be as expected/hoped for! Witness your own findings re. the 'balloon' tubes as powers, compared to drivers. In your case, results follow what one would expect, ie. their extra bass being over-delivered as powers. And yet in my own, with the brighter Darios as drivers, the single balloon in power duties shows no sign whatsoever of being OTT in the bass...just proving that driver/power interaction will differ according to mix of particular tubes. But experimentation is well worth the effort, even if only for interest's sake!! ...so don't be afraid of giving it a try folks...CHEERS!

ps. Swapping front to back in our amps is only really successful with the EL family of pentodes (triode-strapped)...and their abilities in this area - as well as their other attributes - are quite remarkable, in fact!

 

[hypnos1]

Hi connieflyer
With the balloon tubes as drivers I get noise ( these are two new balloon tubes) whilst using them as power tubes all is back in order and quiet. I've not noticed any adverse effects on the bass as yet. I'm nowhere near as experienced as you at picking up on subtle differences in the presentation of music and have found it even more difficult as all the combinations since the EL32 have been so good. However the main thing is I'm completely happy with this present set-up as proved during my 2 hour session with Fleetwood Mac last night, they have never sounded so good.

Hi bt.

Really glad your 'balloons' are fine as powers...thank goodness lol! ...(still the Uniteds, I presume?). And it's really strange they aren't any good as drivers...I and @connieflyer have no problem at all in that respect, with Mullard/Philips tubes...weird!! . Ah well, such is life in tubeland sometimes...

ps. I just love 'Never Going Back Again'; 'Oh Daddy' and 'Gold Dust Woman' especially...these tracks sound awesome in my current setup - a million dollars, even! ...

 

[connieflyer]

Hi BTW, glad to see that you tried the balloon tubes in both positions. The fact that they were a little noisy in the driver's spot could possibly be because they are so new. After you get 60 or 80 hours on them you might want to try rolling them back there again just to see if it's any different. But the main most important thing is that you are enjoying them so much. That is the true test not how experienced you are or how much you paid for any one particular or all the items that you have. It's your enjoyment. That is the most important part. We are all different we all hear things just a little bit different from one another so what works for you may not work for me, but I find it very interesting for people to share their thoughts I'm what it is they like about an item or what they don't like for that matter. I am happy that you found some balloons tubes, these are so hard to find you scored big there my friend. Enjoy the music!