Feliks-Audio EUFORIA - A Wolf in "Sheep's" Clothing...
Jul 2, 2019 at 11:01 PM Post #6,271 of 11,413
Hey Johnny, glad to hear about the good pairing with your HD-579's. I remember hearing the headphones more like vivid, somewhat 'front row' and a great slam to the dynamics with soundstage that's good but a step behind the HD-600's. Very good it suits you that way. Now it makes me curious how it compares to other similar Sennheiser HD's on the Euforia such as HD-600 or 650 if you've ever tried those on the amp?
PS those are discontinued, as told from someone at Sennheiser at CanJam.
 
Jul 3, 2019 at 12:22 AM Post #6,272 of 11,413
Sorry @DecentLevi , but I must confess to being somewhat perplexed at your recent comments re. the Empyrean headphones and Euforia...viz. only "fairly good on Euforia, but not as good as on other amps". Perhaps you can give more details as to the different partnering equipment used, for both Euforia and these other amps, and the length of time given to assessment...

To any folks possibly interested in these wonderful headphones, my own personal experience with them in my system has shown them to be every bit as good as @teknorob23 's recommendation... (and a look at his 'ex equipment' profile re. his experience of top end headphones is a good pointer! :wink:).

But don't just take our word for it...the fact that Meze collaborated with Feliks-Audio (specifically the Euforia) in developing the Empyrean's sound gives further vindication, plus the encouraging words from one of the guys at Meze saying of my own system : "Hugo2 + Euforia + Empyreans...a match made in Heaven". To me personally, this confirms a product that is far beyond "fairly good", and one that can be wholeheartedly recommended lol! :dt880smile:...CHEERS!...CJ

Well I don't want to encourage further upgrade-innitus so to speak, as I personally have no plans on going this way (not with the Euforia anyway), but here was my experience:
For a brief time at SoCal CanJam I tried the Meze Emypyrean headphones on the Euforia. I had to ask a vendor at another table to borrow them since they weren't at the table with F.A. amps and he was escorting me so it had to be a brief listen, maybe 2 min. at each of 3 amps. First off was the Euforia amp pairing, indeed sounded "fairly good". Mind you the Euforia itself was not up to full potential either using stock tubes and the only source was just a good DAP (forgot which model) via 3.5mm to RCA output. Definitely everything was 'there' and sounded right, and if that was the only thing around I could certainly have gotten used to the pairing and even become quite fond of it... but quite the opposite, myself being in a super CanJam filled to the max. with basically every current mid to top-tier flagship Headphone, DAC, amp - an audiophile's dream where we can experience first-hand what is really possible with sound reproduction without pre-condition or bias. So next up was the Prima Luma EVO 200 tube amp - though not their priciest model I was told that it's headphone output is on-par with their higher models which are more built to drive speakers. The difference with the PL 200 amp was immediately noticeable, taking me much deeper into the scene of the music... instead of 'observing' things in the recording you can actually 'taste' them - drums are real instead of simple being a good recording, to make an analogy, and a better performance with everything from instrument separation harder hitting dynamics, etc. These headphones scale well and these types of incrimental improvents are obvious when climbing up to higher amps. Next I tried them with the Quad PA One + amp (using internal DAC) which to me was quite unique: dynamics were possibly just as hard hitting as with the PL 200 amp costing almost 3x more and with a more vivid sound but not quite as detailed and a slower decay to the drums. To me this pairing may have been better than the Euforia in some ways, seeming like this amp has much more sheer power for a more dynamic / weighty experience but I do suppose the scale could tip either way with the Empyreans on the Euforia or the Quad PA One depending on source, tubes, etc.

I also tried the Empyreans with other amps such as WA33 and it came really close to being a showstopper, but as mentioned with the endless array of super hi-fi gems being at a Can Jam, even with cutting edge protoypes on hand I can tell you this with certianty: The Empyreans sounded better on the WA33 than former amps (more resolving, more of everything), however this experience is faint in my memory compared with: The new planar Headphones Rad-0 from Rosson Audio on the GSX-mini solid state amp drivin by Qutest + Mscaler which was bested by the Rangarok 2 amp + Yggdrasil 2 DAC with this headphone, which was also bested by what I currently with no reservations whatsoever consider the all-time current king: the divine, the sensational new breakthrough in "electrodynamic" technology known as HEDDphone One made by a German company who are making a solid entry into headphone production after 30 years of making speakers used in studios. This headphone blew me away even on mid-fi amps I tried it with such as the Quad PA One and especially with the PL 200 amp. A sound that's hard to put into words, just look at my post in recent pages here to my review of it. However as a Euforia owner I'm not recommending any of these as an "upgrade" path. The Rosson Audio Rad-0 did not have 'synergy' with the Euforia and the HEDDphone One was simply not driven loud enough even with the volume up all the way. Of these the most comparable is the Rad-0 to the Empyreans, as these are both planars of around the same general cost. I preferred the Rad-0 to the Emypryeans for a more 'coherent' sound somewhat more vivid, lush and engaging but certainly the Empyreans are resolving and do basically everything right and are by no means in-coherent, but my contrast the others had a more refined and modestly more laid back sound. These would rather be a side-grade than an upgrade if any at all since you would need to also replace to an amp with more raw juice to properly drive them.
 
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Jul 3, 2019 at 12:48 AM Post #6,273 of 11,413
Also since I already basically let the 'cat out of the bag' on the Quad PA One + amp I will point out a few more things:
It has substantially more power than the Euforia at least with the two headphones that it didn't drive well enough; being the HEDDphone One @ 38 ohms, and the Rad-0 at 29 ohms - these were driven well with room to spare on the Quad amp and sounding great enough to make me literally jump up and interrupt someone to take a listen (with the HEDDphone, which to me was comparable to the Orpheus II though not exactly on-par has one up on them for being transportable and scalable). It's not an OTL amp, which the existince of an output transformer may explain what I heard as possibly a slower decay and modest muddiness; yet sounding more resolving at the same time, oddly. I confirmed with the exhibitor it does not have the same quality internals as the Euforia, using what they described as quality copper wiring and though is assembled in China was designed in the UK. I would need a head-to-head to do a real comparison, but for anyone on the sidelines I can say that it's only 1/2 the cost of the Euforia and has a fairly decent internal DAC, FWIW. It takes two 6SN7 and two 6SL7 which are a 6SN7 with higher gain.
And this is the + version which is newest.
 
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Jul 3, 2019 at 2:55 AM Post #6,274 of 11,413
I'll come back with some impressions. What provided you the biggest impact? Interconnects or the headhpone cable? I like a lot my Forza AudioWorks one but might try an silver/gold one on the future.

Hi @OctavianH, sorry for the delay in coming back to you. This weeks been a bit hectic workwise, but I’ve also been pondering an answer as to which cable has the biggest impact. They’re all integral to a systems performance, but my short answer today at least is the HP cable makes the most immediately noticeable impact, followed by interconnect, then usb, then mains cables. However if the judging criteria is focusing on more on fundamental impact then perhaps the order would reverse. Big problem for me when comes to providing a conclusive answer just with my own preferences is that I’d need to test, cross check, every link In the chain and having recently upgraded nearly every part, the scale of this task makes me shake and I might have to leave it until I’ve retired (if that happens). It would be interesting to get anyone else’s thoughts on this, if for any reason other than to save my sanity :wink:

As @hypnos1 mentioned that silver/gold UP-OCC in HP cable is very very good and it has had a big effect on my system. The depth alone, that it adds is something to be heard as it’s consequent effect on separation and layering. It is tonally natural with a lovely timbre. I’d definitely recommend it. But I’d also suggest trying and 8 core mix of silver and copper as it’s a slightly more dynamic, impactful full presentation with nearly same levels of detail retrieval. And that’s just with 24awg/28awg mix, so it you add more silver it might even outperform the silver/gold.

Obvs system synergy will have an impact but this neotech wire has very few weaknesses and seems pretty universal in its compatibility. Good news is I don’t think there’s a bad route here! :wink:
 
Jul 3, 2019 at 4:14 AM Post #6,276 of 11,413
@teknorob23 Please do not loose time on this. My question was just a curiosity. The conclusion is that both HP cable and interconnects have a good impact on sound quality. Thanks a lot!
@teknorob23 Please do not loose time on this. My question was just a curiosity. The conclusion is that both HP cable and interconnects have a good impact on sound quality. Thanks a lot!

You have opened pandora’s box now, because i need to know the answer! :wink:
 
Jul 3, 2019 at 4:47 AM Post #6,277 of 11,413
Well I don't want to encourage further upgrade-innitus so to speak, as I personally have no plans on going this way (not with the Euforia anyway), but here was my experience:
For a brief time at SoCal CanJam I tried the Meze Emypyrean headphones on the Euforia. I had to ask a vendor at another table to borrow them since they weren't at the table with F.A. amps and he was escorting me so it had to be a brief listen, maybe 2 min. at each of 3 amps. First off was the Euforia amp pairing, indeed sounded "fairly good". Mind you the Euforia itself was not up to full potential either using stock tubes and the only source was just a good DAP (forgot which model) via 3.5mm to RCA output. Definitely everything was 'there' and sounded right, and if that was the only thing around I could certainly have gotten used to the pairing and even become quite fond of it... but quite the opposite, myself being in a super CanJam filled to the max. with basically every current mid to top-tier flagship Headphone, DAC, amp - an audiophile's dream where we can experience first-hand what is really possible with sound reproduction without pre-condition or bias. So next up was the Prima Luma EVO 200 tube amp - though not their priciest model I was told that it's headphone output is on-par with their higher models which are more built to drive speakers. The difference with the PL 200 amp was immediately noticeable, taking me much deeper into the scene of the music... instead of 'observing' things in the recording you can actually 'taste' them - drums are real instead of simple being a good recording, to make an analogy, and a better performance with everything from instrument separation harder hitting dynamics, etc. These headphones scale well and these types of incrimental improvents are obvious when climbing up to higher amps. Next I tried them with the Quad PA One + amp (using internal DAC) which to me was quite unique: dynamics were possibly just as hard hitting as with the PL 200 amp costing almost 3x more and with a more vivid sound but not quite as detailed and a slower decay to the drums. To me this pairing may have been better than the Euforia in some ways, seeming like this amp has much more sheer power for a more dynamic / weighty experience but I do suppose the scale could tip either way with the Empyreans on the Euforia or the Quad PA One depending on source, tubes, etc.

I also tried the Empyreans with other amps such as WA33 and it came really close to being a showstopper, but as mentioned with the endless array of super hi-fi gems being at a Can Jam, even with cutting edge protoypes on hand I can tell you this with certianty: The Empyreans sounded better on the WA33 than former amps (more resolving, more of everything), however this experience is faint in my memory compared with: The new planar Headphones Rad-0 from Rosson Audio on the GSX-mini solid state amp drivin by Qutest + Mscaler which was bested by the Rangarok 2 amp + Yggdrasil 2 DAC with this headphone, which was also bested by what I currently with no reservations whatsoever consider the all-time current king: the divine, the sensational new breakthrough in "electrodynamic" technology known as HEDDphone One made by a German company who are making a solid entry into headphone production after 30 years of making speakers used in studios. This headphone blew me away even on mid-fi amps I tried it with such as the Quad PA One and especially with the PL 200 amp. A sound that's hard to put into words, just look at my post in recent pages here to my review of it. However as a Euforia owner I'm not recommending any of these as an "upgrade" path. The Rosson Audio Rad-0 did not have 'synergy' with the Euforia and the HEDDphone One was simply not driven loud enough even with the volume up all the way. Of these the most comparable is the Rad-0 to the Empyreans, as these are both planars of around the same general cost. I preferred the Rad-0 to the Emypryeans for a more 'coherent' sound somewhat more vivid, lush and engaging but certainly the Empyreans are resolving and do basically everything right and are by no means in-coherent, but my contrast the others had a more refined and modestly more laid back sound. These would rather be a side-grade than an upgrade if any at all since you would need to also replace to an amp with more raw juice to properly drive them.

Thanks for your more detailed info DL...but it simply highlights the points of contention lol! :wink:...viz :

1. Any serious head-fier will attest to the fact that judgment of any gear at such shows can only ever - at best - be a mild indication of a product's qualities. There are far too many impeding factors involved, from partnering gear (and cables) to the venue itself.

2. 2 to 3 minutes' testing of each? Nowhere near enough to get any true and proper result, I'm afraid. Any professional reviewer would spend weeks undertaking such a mammoth task as you set yourself.

3. I don't doubt that the Empyreans can sound even better in something like the WA33...but at $8000 to $15000, so it should! Not a fair comparison, by any means!

Of course you're entitled to your own opinion DL, but it's neither just nor fair to both Meze and Feliks Audio to make such bold statements as only "fairly good", especially without emphasising strongly the limitations to the process of assessment as previously mentioned. I personally would rather take Meze's own findings on their partnering with Euforia...as I suspect others would also, who may be interested! :ksc75smile:

ps. I make these points solely in the interests of not only your own credibility in assessments of important gear other than tube rolling in the public domain, but that of head-fi.org itself...especially in the eyes of such not-so-'Friendsly' :)wink:) sites where you would have been fed to the wolves long since!! :triportsad:...(we've been here before a while ago now alas, remember?!)...CJ
 
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Jul 3, 2019 at 9:39 AM Post #6,278 of 11,413
I can't strongly enough agree with CJ on the analysis of this mini headphones with so many various sources an amplification all at the same time trying to complete it in a two-day period. The fact that you need a lot more time with each phone and system and systems that are running at their Peak and not with just something the vendor through together to bring to the show leaves me cold. I have been doing this for many many many years and I can truthfully tell you that listening to a pair of headphones even on the same exact system takes time to hear the subtle nuances and develop a Synergy with what you're listening to. Just recently I went back to the original tubes on the efuoria using my Sennheiser 800 Gungnir multi-bit DAC premium interconnects, Draug 3 headphone cable and high-quality Source material. I was quite surprised how nice the original tubes did sound in the efuoria. They really did sound good. But not what I was used to hearing, so started substituting power tubes, and different drivers finally in the middle of the night ended up back with the el 39 driving the mesh plate el11 and everything that I had come to know about this music finally came back together. There was nothing missing, there was nothing that I was tired of hearing, there was both the excitement the slam and the quiet symphonic nuances that I had come to appreciate and love with this combination, mind you with each combination I listened to for quite some time to allow burn in both in the equipment and in my head. I would listen to each separate combination until I felt there was something missing something, that I'd heard before but could not really put my finger on it at the moment. Mind you I was up until 4 a.m. this morning before finally deciding that the best that I had heard on my system was the el 39 and el 11 mesh plates. It proved to me once again that the Euforia scales so well and does a very Workman like job to whatever it is used with it. I cannot speak to the Mezes Emypyrean I would have to agree with CJ then if a vendor that is trying to sell those headphones teams up with one of the Feliks amps they must believe in their own testing that it is a very good combination. Headphone listening app comparing can be done similarly to a date with a beautiful woman. It must go slowly, relaxed a bit and listen for the excitement, mind you that last part is from memory that sadly is starting to fail! Been too long! So in summing this dissertation up just let me say try various combinations for a good while of time before you reject something out of hand. I don't expect you to run out and buy all the equipment that I have just to see if it's true or not take your time experiment a little bit, but do so a little at a time and take your time for each part to burn in system gets used to each other and it develops into a cohesive unit.
 
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Jul 3, 2019 at 12:34 PM Post #6,279 of 11,413
Yes they were a bit of a steal, there's always that slight apprehensive moment though until you try them, of course, but I have given all of them a quick test and they all sound very good and dead silent phew!, oh I also forgot to mention there was also another 10 tubes, all Telefunken, of various types, EF11, EM11, UF11, UL11, UM11. As for the EL39's only had just over an hour with them so not much time to really evaluate, but already they are a superb sounding tube, micro detailing and imaging is the best I've heard, hopefully I can get more time with them tomorrow, btw your adapters look so much more elegant than mrs X's, so cheers CJ! :beyersmile:.

Hi Scutey. Yes indeed...along with their other great qualities, that fine detail has continued to develop even after a good many hours' burn-in (courtesy of testing all those adapters lol! :wink:). Quite uncanny, actually...:beyersmile: And thanks for the compliments btw...:ksc75smile:


Hi @OctavianH, sorry for the delay in coming back to you. This weeks been a bit hectic workwise, but I’ve also been pondering an answer as to which cable has the biggest impact. They’re all integral to a systems performance, but my short answer today at least is the HP cable makes the most immediately noticeable impact, followed by interconnect, then usb, then mains cables. However if the judging criteria is focusing on more on fundamental impact then perhaps the order would reverse. Big problem for me when comes to providing a conclusive answer just with my own preferences is that I’d need to test, cross check, every link In the chain and having recently upgraded nearly every part, the scale of this task makes me shake and I might have to leave it until I’ve retired (if that happens). It would be interesting to get anyone else’s thoughts on this, if for any reason other than to save my sanity :wink:

As @hypnos1 mentioned that silver/gold UP-OCC in HP cable is very very good and it has had a big effect on my system. The depth alone, that it adds is something to be heard as it’s consequent effect on separation and layering. It is tonally natural with a lovely timbre. I’d definitely recommend it. But I’d also suggest trying and 8 core mix of silver and copper as it’s a slightly more dynamic, impactful full presentation with nearly same levels of detail retrieval. And that’s just with 24awg/28awg mix, so it you add more silver it might even outperform the silver/gold.

Obvs system synergy will have an impact but this neotech wire has very few weaknesses and seems pretty universal in its compatibility. Good news is I don’t think there’s a bad route here! :wink:

I agree tr with the difficulty in knowing just what is having the biggest impact on sound when multiple upgrades have been made close to each other. In my own case, the most immediate improvement came when replacing my standard multi mains extension lead with the PowerInspired Mains Regenerator...truly a revelation! Then, further down the line, better ICs brought noticeable improvement, followed by headphone cable upgrade. Can't say for sure which of these two had the most immediate impact however. As you say, to try and backtrack and swap so many possible combinations for testing would be an almost impossible task...and life's too short lol!! :wink:

Re. the (wonderful) Neotech UP-OCC wire combo for hp cables, I personally have always preferred to mix solid silver with solid copper (NOT silver-plated copper!)...great dynamics and full-bloodied performance. And I'm sure it's the copper that really helps bass dig down deep and strong. In addition, I believe that using different gauges of silver wire - as in their 'XLR' IC cable, and used by makers of hyper-expensive cables - helps in retrieving that last bit of micro detail. Hence I made my own hp cable using 24AWG and 26AWG silver, and 24AWG copper wires. So impressed in fact that I made a second one, so as to be able to A/B another amp - hopefully the Anniversary Edition Euforia - my original one being connected direct to Euforia's internal wiring...for better or worse lol! :ksc75smile:

On the subject of bass response, the further burn-in during the recent mammoth adapter testing has also brought a surprising development in this area. The EL39's superior bass handling has morphed in a way I've never experienced before...from initial impressive solidity, depth and impact to a refinement that's very difficult to describe fully.

Coming back to my stalwart test track - 'Battle' from Gladiator's soundtrack - the amazing dynamism of the multiple bass lines is still hard-hitting, but somehow in a more subtle way, with more impressive control and ultimately more overall impact. Wasn't expecting this development...helped in no small way by the 12-core UP-OCC hp cable, no doubt lol! :L3000:...CHEERS!...CJ

ps. Hope your own 39s are coming along nicely...:smile_phones:
 
Jul 3, 2019 at 3:14 PM Post #6,280 of 11,413
81F56547-E776-4A0E-9C2B-CD18F34ACEFD.jpeg


Hi @hypnos1, are these the famous “mesh plates” ? This is a used TFK tube....
 
Jul 3, 2019 at 5:07 PM Post #6,281 of 11,413
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Jul 3, 2019 at 8:35 PM Post #6,283 of 11,413
...the best that I had heard on my system was the el 39 and el 11 mesh plates.
I am a brand new Elise owner, just received yesterday and super excited to set it up in my chain this holiday weekend. Per excellent advise in this forum don't plan to tube roll until I settle in w/the amp for several months. However, as I begin my learning curve and journey, I am interested in whether it's correct that EL tubes generate significantly less heat, since I am a bit worried about heat generation as we often have grandchildren at the house, I do plan to use a small, quiet fan and experiment w/placement of Elise to minimize access to small fingers, but would appreciate other's experience as to what I might consider next if heat is problematic (EL tubes, socket savers, even drastic stuff like a mesh plain wire or Faraday cage if EMF proves to be an issue).

Thoughts from the Feliks Audio cognoscenti much appreciated, and Happy 4th!
 
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Jul 3, 2019 at 10:20 PM Post #6,284 of 11,413
Hi LW,
I don't have the EL39 tubes, but I do have the EL11 tubes and they run very cool - no danger in burning your fingers in touching them.
However, I would worry about little curious fingers touching the tubes because of breakage and even worse, pushing them partially out of the sockets and causing loud pops and static which could damage headphones and speakers.
Your best bet is to find a place for the amp out of reach of little children. Re ventilation, as long as you have 2-3 feet of air above the amp it should be enough. If the amp is placed on an equipment rack or between shelves, a little 4" PC fan drawing away the air from the amp will lower the chassis temperature at least 10 degrees.
Socket savers save the amp sockets from wear and tear and also act as insulators, lowering the chassis temperature.
Good luck and welcome to the Forum!
 
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Jul 4, 2019 at 1:09 AM Post #6,285 of 11,413
Thank you, @mordy . If I elect to go in the EL direction is there a specific resource for adapters?

Also, any thoughts about whether placing the Elise on a desk where a wireless router is also present will produce audible interference? I've heard "yes" and "no" so am a bit confused.

Most importantly, thank you for the nice welcome. Please let me know if my posts should be to the FA Elise thread instead of here, but this thread seems to be far more "where the action is!"
 

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