Feliks-Audio EUFORIA - A Wolf in "Sheep's" Clothing...
Oct 12, 2018 at 1:37 AM Post #4,831 of 11,413
Hi cf.

Am so glad that you, like @Johnnysound , stuck with my pleas to give these ('coated') ST CV1052s lots of burn-in time...I personally found they need more time even than some of the (notorious!) Russian (small) tubes!! And I still cannot believe just how much they changed well after 100 hrs...especially when 'conditioned' by many different pieces of music across the entire FR.

These have proved beyond any doubt that tubes not specifically configured for in a circuit sometimes can perform brilliantly, regardless of what theory might dictate. As I have stated many times before, one should trust one's own ears in such matters, and not be overly swayed by what others (including 'experts') say...so long as said tubes are shown to be safe to use! On which subject, I have to say also that these ELs especially have been prone to none of the gremlins that sometimes curse other tubes used in 6SN7 and 6AS7G/6080/6BL7 circuits. On the contrary, mine have proved to be the quietest, hum-(and other gremlin-) free tubes I have ever used in my amps...bar none! That they also outperform all of them - often at a fraction of the cost - and run the amp incredibly cool, has me still in disbelief !.:triportsad:...CHEERS!...CJ

Hi H1, you mentioned the long burn in time needed by Russian “small” tubes...since all tubes are system dependent I must say (again) that I still consider my ( rare) Melz 6N1P-E triple mica, box plates from 63’ some of the very top drivers in the Euforia. In this particular amp, IMHO, superior to any 6SN7 that I have tried (and I have quite a few nice ones). I read that the 6N1P was designed as a cold war effort to surpass the specs of the U.S. 6SN7 in a small format, from the start as an audio tube, and it shows.

Super extended top to bottom, linear, quiet, and above all a rich, dense, dynamic, musical and pleasant sound. Curiously, they do need quite a warmup to sound best, probably an hour or so. I have used mine some 40 hours, and yes, I feel they need much more playing time to completely “open up”.

The good news is that right now there are a few offers of the 6N1P-E triple mica from the sixties on EBay at very good prices ! This is a quite rare tube, normally very hard to find, and believe me, the current stock will be sold in a few days, and will not appear again for a long time....

But the small Russians will have to wait , all my “amp time” is devoted right now to the CV1052 “dark glass” quartet. Some 130 hours plus...and I feel they have not reached their peak yet. These tubes are unlike any others that I know of.

All tubes improve with burn in, of course, and after some time you can be reasonably sure that the tube is “mature” , say some better defined bass, subtly more open sound, and so on, and it stays like that. Not the CV1052s. The current draw is so tiny that the process is not only extremely slow, but gradual and incremental in very small steps, and most important, in my experience the results are very different than with other tubes. While you can expect, say, marginally better bass, these tubes evolved (surprisingly) from a quite “polite” and a bit restricted bass to something very different: a seriously deep, tight and accurate presentation. This is not a “normal” burn in. This is not marginal. My mad theory is that the very low current draw maybe has some unexpected effects in the tube internals, apart from the quiet background. Slow cooking is always better....Who knows ?
 
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Oct 12, 2018 at 7:59 AM Post #4,832 of 11,413
Well Johnnysound, your results parallel mine exactly. The only thing is with mine I stopped at a hundred and twenty hours to put a hundred hours or so on the clear CV 1052 tubes. Right now the clear Tubes are showing that they are very close to the coated tubes. I can hardly wait till I get over the hundred hour burn in on these, so I can go back to the coated tubes and continue There long-term burning. I think these are some of the best tubes that I have used. I used to think the gec 6as7g where my best drivers along with the 6080 but I haven't use those and probably 4 months and will probably put them up for sale I'm sure somebody could use that type of tube. I am going to stick with the CV tubes I can hardly wait to see just how good they will eventually get. Take care and good luck on your journey with these tubes
 
Oct 12, 2018 at 10:09 AM Post #4,833 of 11,413
Hi H1, you mentioned the long burn in time needed by Russian “small” tubes...since all tubes are system dependent I must say (again) that I still consider my ( rare) Melz 6N1P-E triple mica, box plates from 63’ some of the very top drivers in the Euforia. In this particular amp, IMHO, superior to any 6SN7 that I have tried (and I have quite a few nice ones). I read that the 6N1P was designed as a cold war effort to surpass the specs of the U.S. 6SN7 in a small format, from the start as an audio tube, and it shows.

Super extended top to bottom, linear, quiet, and above all a rich, dense, dynamic, musical and pleasant sound. Curiously, they do need quite a warmup to sound best, probably an hour or so. I have used mine some 40 hours, and yes, I feel they need much more playing time to completely “open up”.

The good news is that right now there are a few offers of the 6N1P-E triple mica from the sixties on EBay at very good prices ! This is a quite rare tube, normally very hard to find, and believe me, the current stock will be sold in a few days, and will not appear again for a long time....

But the small Russians will have to wait , all my “amp time” is devoted right now to the CV1052 “dark glass” quartet. Some 130 hours plus...and I feel they have not reached their peak yet. These tubes are unlike any others that I know of.

All tubes improve with burn in, of course, and after some time you can be reasonably sure that the tube is “mature” , say some better defined bass, subtly more open sound, and so on, and it stays like that. Not the CV1052s. The current draw is so tiny that the process is not only extremely slow, but gradual and incremental in very small steps, and most important, in my experience the results are very different than with other tubes. While you can expect, say, marginally better bass, these tubes evolved (surprisingly) from a quite “polite” and a bit restricted bass to something very different: a seriously deep, tight and accurate presentation. This is not a “normal” burn in. This is not marginal. My mad theory is that the very low current draw maybe has some unexpected effects in the tube internals, apart from the quiet background. Slow cooking is always better....Who knows ?

Hi J.:wink:

Interesting that the 6N1p should perform so well in our amps...like so many others, this is not meant to happen lol! But, as you know, I have found many such non-conformities that have performed extremely well in Elise and Euforia, regardless of what theory and some might say!

And as for the ST CV1052 with internal coating, this tube has - like yourself, and others have found - turned out to be the most 'mystifying' of all. The dramatic changes/improvements over extended time have certainly confounded also myself, @connieflyer et al to an astonishing degree. When I first spied and then adapted this tube, I never thought such a diminutive "coke bottle" (or anything else, for that matter!) could ever match my extremely rare mesh-plated Valvo EL11/TFK EL12 Spezial combo... and to be honest, first impressions weren't overly encouraging. But my gut instinct told me to persevere with it - years of experimenting with 'unconventional' tubes have, fortunately, somehow instilled in me a certain ear for potential at least. And as the weeks went by, I noticed the kinds of development you described - different to any others I have tried before. At first I thought my hearing had simply altered temporarily, or it was a case of 'brain burn-in'. But when I noticed such changes even after a few days' rest from listening, and old, familiar test tracks sounding like never before, I discounted these possibilities entirely! And when cf and yourself confirmed I wasn't just fooling myself, I finally accepted that this tube is truly a very rare creature indeed. And precisely why it should perform as it does, I too don't really know whether it's due to the low current draw, or something else. Theory would say that as this tube is not conforming to our amps' circuit topology, it should be operating below par, to say the least. So this is indeed an interesting conundrum lol, and one for which I will be forever grateful :ksc75smile:...
 
Oct 12, 2018 at 10:18 AM Post #4,834 of 11,413
I totally concur with H on these tubes. It is funny that he should mention hearing, as I had the same thoughts! That for some unknown reason, my hearing had some how changed and allowed me to hear frequencies in the music that I had not heard before, thanks H for confirming I was not crazy. Well, at least that is one thing in my favor for not being "called" crazy. Amazing sound that these tubes are providing. Extremely pleased with them. Thanks H for putting us on to such a premium sound.
 
Oct 12, 2018 at 11:11 AM Post #4,835 of 11,413
Well Johnnysound, your results parallel mine exactly. The only thing is with mine I stopped at a hundred and twenty hours to put a hundred hours or so on the clear CV 1052 tubes. Right now the clear Tubes are showing that they are very close to the coated tubes. I can hardly wait till I get over the hundred hour burn in on these, so I can go back to the coated tubes and continue There long-term burning. I think these are some of the best tubes that I have used. I used to think the gec 6as7g where my best drivers along with the 6080 but I haven't use those and probably 4 months and will probably put them up for sale I'm sure somebody could use that type of tube. I am going to stick with the CV tubes I can hardly wait to see just how good they will eventually get. Take care and good luck on your journey with these tubes

Hi cf.

All I can say is...well done for sacrificing more time with your 'specials' in the interests of 'rollers anonymous' lol! :wink::ksc75smile:...(reckon you should take over my mantle as mad tube experimenter...so get brushing up your soldering skills, mon ami! :ksc75smile:. But then, why would you want to, given the sound we're now enjoying from our Euforias?!! :)...not to mention looming bankruptcy, courtesy of Feliks-Audio!!!).

And glad to hear the clear ST version is developing nicely as well...should prove to be a very useful 'stand in', if ever necessary.

120 hours on the 'coateds'?...you could well be in for further surprises yet!....HAPPY LISTENING...CJ
 
Oct 12, 2018 at 12:21 PM Post #4,836 of 11,413
No worries about me taking over over your mantle as mad tube experimenter, just trying to add to the general knowledge of these tubes.
 
Oct 13, 2018 at 3:37 AM Post #4,838 of 11,413
Well Johnnysound, your results parallel mine exactly. The only thing is with mine I stopped at a hundred and twenty hours to put a hundred hours or so on the clear CV 1052 tubes. Right now the clear Tubes are showing that they are very close to the coated tubes. I can hardly wait till I get over the hundred hour burn in on these, so I can go back to the coated tubes and continue There long-term burning. I think these are some of the best tubes that I have used. I used to think the gec 6as7g where my best drivers along with the 6080 but I haven't use those and probably 4 months and will probably put them up for sale I'm sure somebody could use that type of tube. I am going to stick with the CV tubes I can hardly wait to see just how good they will eventually get. Take care and good luck on your journey with these tubes

Hi, Cf, It is great to know that your impressions, those of H1 and mine are totally coincident. Now we can rest assured that our hearing (and our mental health) is perfectly ok (LOL). And yes, I also wondered if some changes in the sound were real or just my imagination...! The fact that our systems are probably very different only confirms our findings...with Euforia as a preamp, the CV1052/EL32 quartet is very useful as a reference to “tune up” my power amp, (which has a great preamp section of its own) so you can roll pre tubes and perform an instant A/B comparison against the reference.

Fantastic experience. Since this combo in the Euforia is so utterly neutral and quiet, the sonic character of the other tubes is revealed at once. Almost like a lab instrument, so here you go, another use for the Euforia...
 
Oct 13, 2018 at 6:44 AM Post #4,839 of 11,413
Hi, Cf, It is great to know that your impressions, those of H1 and mine are totally coincident. Now we can rest assured that our hearing (and our mental health) is perfectly ok (LOL). And yes, I also wondered if some changes in the sound were real or just my imagination...! The fact that our systems are probably very different only confirms our findings...with Euforia as a preamp, the CV1052/EL32 quartet is very useful as a reference to “tune up” my power amp, (which has a great preamp section of its own) so you can roll pre tubes and perform an instant A/B comparison against the reference.

Fantastic experience. Since this combo in the Euforia is so utterly neutral and quiet, the sonic character of the other tubes is revealed at once. Almost like a lab instrument, so here you go, another use for the Euforia...

Yes indeed J...my current Euforia setup, even though rather humble compared to the new 2A3 flagship, should still be a very good reference for assessing the newcomer lol...:gs1000smile:...(counting the days...:smile_phones:...or is that weeks/months?!! :triportsad:).
 
Oct 13, 2018 at 3:46 PM Post #4,840 of 11,413
Just remember H, you are reviewing in good faith for the rest of us! Might make sense , that after you get the demo amp, for me to fly over to England and give it a listen!
 
Oct 14, 2018 at 7:39 AM Post #4,842 of 11,413
That's a great idea Johnny sound! We get a few more people we all go over there to H place, and we'll just party until the demo burns up! Of course with all this talk of a visit I have a feeling that H might decline the demo or at least changes address! Of course I couldn't blame him. Take care keep up the good work
 
Oct 14, 2018 at 9:09 AM Post #4,843 of 11,413
Hi Erwan....welcome...and glad to hear you're another "happy owner" of an Euforia...an extremely good amp IMHO!!

You have some very good tubes there to spoil her with...and I'm sure a good few folks would be scratching their heads somewhat that you rate the fairly humble Sylvania combo over WE421A etc.! :wink:
However, that's a prime example of everyone's tastes being different, along with accompanying gear lol. And all that's important in this hobby is what pleases your ears and brain...and as I've stressed many times before, the most important thing is to trust your ears!!

Re. the coated ST CV1052s you have, your early findings are precisely what the rest of us have found...so please persevere a good while longer yet (100 hrs plus) - your patience will most surely be rewarded. Bass will develop, as will perceived dynamics and greater frequency range. But I must point out something here that is sometimes not fully appreciated - ie. there is a great difference between bass quantity and quality. If too much of the former is presented, it can often result in loss of detail and precision...along with masking many of the more subtle frequencies higher up the scale. It can sometimes take quite a long time to really notice and appreciate this...it took me a good long while!!

And again with dynamics, greater separation and better placement of instruments and voice can sometimes appear less dynamic at first, simply because of there being less 'compression', and a wider soundstage. This is most certainly the case with these particular tubes...more so than any others I have ever tried. And a somewhat uncanny result of this is the sudden appearance of notes that were never before heard in certain pieces of very familiar music - a trait noticed by others, as well as myself.

So please give these tubes much longer burn-in yet, and I hope you too may notice these aspects I have mentioned...plus others!

Re. the sale of your excess tubes, without (I hope!) casting any aspersions on your genuine sincerity/honesty, I suspect many folks might like to have the protection of ebay and PayPal, for example, in such purchases...especially as anyone new to head-fi is not allowed to post items in the 'for sale' classifieds until a member for 30 days, and with at least 15 posts under the belt.

But notwithstanding, I do hope you manage to find a buyer very soon...I myself have a good supply at the moment, but may well be in the market for some more if I can't afford the new flagship 2A3 amp. Hopefully, however, someone else will be able to enjoy the special qualities of these tubes, given their scarcity lol! :L3000:

Whatever, I wish you all the best Erwan...and GOOD LUCK! Not to mention continued enjoyment of your Euforia....Sante! (Please excuse the lack of acute accent! :) ).

Hi H1,

Thanks for this welcome message.

Yes, I put lot of my time (and money) in tube rolling on the Euforia, and I was surprised myself by the Sylvania6SN7GTB+TungSol6080WA combo over the whatever-driver+WE421A.
Now, I'm not saying the WE421A are bad in any way, they are actually one of the best tube to power out the Euforia: quite detailed, punchy, wide... better than the 5998 from TungSol (I own as well) in every way, but not that much as the 5998 are great tubes as well.
It's just that to my ears the Sylv+TS6080WA are outperforming all other tube combinations I've tried on the Eurforia, But I agree, it's definitely a matter of each one preference at this level.

Back to the 4xCV1052 combo, I remain skeptical.
Yes, the sound is improving as the burn-in goes on (I'm at 50h+ now).
Yes, those tubes allowed me to discover some new notes/details on tracks I thought I knew by heart. Yet, there are two drawbacks that keep on puzzling me:
1) background noise is revealed and can become too present on some tracks
2) if I can make an analogy to picture reviewing, it would be as if you were using a magnifying glass that would present some details you were previously missing, but that would also make all the rest of the picture "washed-out". Yes, the sound is wide and very detailed with those tubes, but it's also "hypertrophied" and somewhat "hollow", lacking precision, dynamics and depth.

Again, it's just my opinion, and things may keep-on arranging as the burn-in goes on, but the general lack of "incisiveness" is a problem to me.
I actually enjoy the Euforia for the dynamics it brought to me, dynamics I've currently lost with those tubes.

Thanks and regards,

Erwan.
 
Oct 14, 2018 at 9:24 AM Post #4,844 of 11,413
Just remember H, you are reviewing in good faith for the rest of us! Might make sense , that after you get the demo amp, for me to fly over to England and give it a listen!

Hi again Cf, very good idea ! I am located in Panama because of my job (an important airline hub) and plenty of flights to England are available!!

That's a great idea Johnny sound! We get a few more people we all go over there to H place, and we'll just party until the demo burns up! Of course with all this talk of a visit I have a feeling that H might decline the demo or at least changes address! Of course I couldn't blame him. Take care keep up the good work

Hey guys...that sounds a tremendous idea. But just be sure to bring your own coffee beans (I'll grind 'em!! :wink:)...methinks we'd be in for some pretty mammoth sessions, and in need of tons of caffeine lol!! :astonished::ksc75smile:.

And don't forget I'd also be wanting some honest opinions of just how (if!) my Euforia system might differ from your own! Plus, you might just find yourselves out of pocket when you hear the effects of Balanced Mains/Filter Conditioning and the use of Neotech UP-OCC solid silver and copper wires throughout...so be warned lol!! :smile_phones:

And on the subject of assessing the newcomer, I have discovered one of the main music pieces I shall be using for this task...Mahler's 5th Symphony, with Leonard Bernstein conducting the Vienna Philharmonic. The quality of recording is amazing, especially given its age, and the performance is outstanding. There must be very few pieces to match this in all its rich glory...from ear-shattering kettle drums, tubas and horns, through trombones, trumpets and woodwind to soaring strings and the most delicate chimes and triangles....utterly sensational.

And such massed 'turmoil' demands a very good sound system indeed to keep everything under tight control, and in perfect balance. Euforia, and the ST CV1052s (with the help of Hugo2 as DAC, etc...) handle all this with consummate ease - the mass of different instruments being kept sufficiently apart, but without loss of cohesion, and within a soundstage to die for (my T1s Gen1, with replacement UP-OCC cable, here being easily a match for the Senn HD800...).

Dynamics handling, from pianissimo to double forte, is superb... and although I recently may have implied that these tubes' bass excelled in quality and detail over quantity, this recording has proved more than enough of the latter to be present...any more in fact would overwhelm everything else. Simply perfect lol! Reproduction of the finest detail across the entire frequency range is such as I've never experienced before - better than with any other driver I've trialled, and better even as powers than the mighty 'Holy Grail' GEC 6AS7G variants and TFK EL12 Spezials...all of which also cost VASTLY more!!

And so I await comparing the new amp even more now...it really is gonna have its work cut out to improve much upon this performance!...CHEERS...CJ
 
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Oct 14, 2018 at 9:53 AM Post #4,845 of 11,413
Hi H1,

Thanks for this welcome message.

Yes, I put lot of my time (and money) in tube rolling on the Euforia, and I was surprised myself by the Sylvania6SN7GTB+TungSol6080WA combo over the whatever-driver+WE421A.
Now, I'm not saying the WE421A are bad in any way, they are actually one of the best tube to power out the Euforia: quite detailed, punchy, wide... better than the 5998 from TungSol (I own as well) in every way, but not that much as the 5998 are great tubes as well.
It's just that to my ears the Sylv+TS6080WA are outperforming all other tube combinations I've tried on the Eurforia, But I agree, it's definitely a matter of each one preference at this level.

Back to the 4xCV1052 combo, I remain skeptical.
Yes, the sound is improving as the burn-in goes on (I'm at 50h+ now).
Yes, those tubes allowed me to discover some new notes/details on tracks I thought I knew by heart. Yet, there are two drawbacks that keep on puzzling me:
1) background noise is revealed and can become too present on some tracks
2) if I can make an analogy to picture reviewing, it would be as if you were using a magnifying glass that would present some details you were previously missing, but that would also make all the rest of the picture "washed-out". Yes, the sound is wide and very detailed with those tubes, but it's also "hypertrophied" and somewhat "hollow", lacking precision, dynamics and depth.

Again, it's just my opinion, and things may keep-on arranging as the burn-in goes on, but the general lack of "incisiveness" is a problem to me.
I actually enjoy the Euforia for the dynamics it brought to me, dynamics I've currently lost with those tubes.

Thanks and regards,

Erwan.

Hi Erwan. Thanks for getting back to us, and explaining your findings.

Even without the full burn-in needed, it sounds to me like something is not at all right with your particular situation.

First, you shouldn't be getting any background noise whatsoever...these are the quietest tubes I have ever encountered, as confirmed by @connieflyer and @Johnnysound .
Plus, in my (and others') system, dynamics and precision are exemplary...even though the former does need a fair while to fully develop.

The difficulty is going to be finding out just what is causing the problem, alas!...:

1. If your tubes were NOS, they should be OK...assuming the pins, and the top metal cap, are shiny clean!
2. Hopefully, your adapters are good...but sometimes it's difficult to know if they're 100%, especially if you haven't made your own lol! And check the top cap connection is good and tight!
3. On rare occasions, and if one is very unlucky, with these tubes being triode-strapped pentodes, they can be prone to distortion from external sources of interference - EMI/RFI - from such equipment as nearby mobile/cordless 'phones; routers; 'fridges; air-con etc. etc....and not just in your immediate vicinity!! Not to mention possible mains interference!

From what you say about background noise, at least one of these areas must be involved, so I can only advise that you do extensive checking where you can, and hope you manage to pinpoint the culprit(s) concerned. It might also be a good idea to swap tubes around, and mix with others, to try and eliminate a possible bad one...

So good luck in this quest...I wish you all the best, as you are evidently not getting the performance you should be from these particular tubes...unfortunately. CHEERS!...CJ
 

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