Feliks-Audio EUFORIA - A Wolf in "Sheep's" Clothing...
Jan 18, 2017 at 1:24 AM Post #136 of 11,413
  Yeah I was saying that from what I've heard, the Euforia may potentially compete with summit-fi amps costing much more, so if one would theoretically gain only a small improvement from a greatly more expensive amp, the ball still lies on Euforia's side for bang-for-buck.

 
  ...
 
If I had to speculate on the Euforia, I'd say I'd expect it to be a much better bargain for all your wonderful TOTL cans; and perhaps a very nice treat to my modest 600s. Now, would you pair it with an $4000 set of cans? Perhaps, but there must be some reason why the other Summit–fi amps cost that much. In that sense perhaps @DecentLevi has a point: a modest improvement might not cut a budget raise; a significant improvement might put it up against other established amps in the price range; and an omg experience might just as well justify breaking the bank once again to satisfy our OCD for upgrades. But Elise owners need to remember they are a spoiled group: the Elise became known as an exceptional bang for the buck, albeit it seems like the greater part of its returns is by pairing it to exceptional tubes which often cost more than the amp a pair (still waiting to form an opinion of my own here)! It was never a Summit–Fi investment.
 
As always, @DecentLevi—with his usual over the top enthusiasm—brings up numbers that defy logic. In that aspect he validates my claim, that the Elise has, in fact, spoiled you (us?) all! But I wrote this earlier: I'd very much like to see which other amps do you guys feel the Euphoria compares to in terms of what makes sense. Obviously one should wait until all the new owners accumulate actual listening experience, and hopefully have the opportunity to compare with other amps (can jam?). Until then, new owners will follow our fearless Dean @hypnos1 once again in his ventures (and happily benefit from the pre-sale price!). But if you guys conclude that the Euforia compares to a $6000 amp, then I say our University should definitely get some big time sponsors!

Good points. And I'd say there becomes a tipping point in regards to price / performance ratio, so spending far too much for just a modest improvement may tip the scale against your favor... but granted all this talk of comparisons of the Euforia to other pricier summit-fi amps is all speculative, as has never been done yet. I for one however wouldn't see the its' comparison against other pricier amps to be too unfair, as sometimes price / size 'labels' can become blurred in the face of sonic performance, which is really what's important. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Euforia can compete with pricier tube amps as well.
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 1:35 AM Post #137 of 11,413
What does an audiophile say when someone is screaming? ​
  Aah, those levels are clipping!
 ​
What does an audiophile say when eating great quality 'dollar store' pizza? ​
 Wow that pushes way above its' price point!
 
 
Anyway I've got a few interesting points to share that were passed along from an inquiry this week from Feliks Audio.. just FYI in case it wasn't known yet:
 
  1. The presale ends on January 31st which will not be extended
  2. The Euforia will be shipped only with tubes; no option without
  3. The power output is similar to the Elise, "but the sound has number of extra qualities to it"
  4. RE the sonic performance of Elise compared to Euforia:
    "we havent yet confirmed face to face, but we believe it's now playing in 1 or 2 higher league than Elise"
 
For me, the 3rd point brings up an interesting point - I wonder if perhaps the power output may measure slightly more than the Elise; likewize I'm curious if the transformer is any different or if it really is just its' case being larger.
 
But especially the 4th point peaks my interest - can only imagine what 1-2 leagues higher than the Elise may sound like!
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 6:30 AM Post #138 of 11,413
@DecentLevi  I want to apologize if I was inappropriate in my comments to you. You and I just have different approaches to our hobby. As I recently said in another place, Live and Let Live)))) However, I do hope all of us will honor H1's guidelines for appropriate moderation in the language we employ on this thread.
 
With respect to Sumit-Fi amps, I may never hear one unless I'm able to attend London CanJam in July. But it doesn't matter to me. Until I finally gave it up in 2009 I was involved in high end audio since the 60s and was in constant pursuit of the latest and greatest. In retrospect, I'm personally convinced that high price does not necessarily mean a better sounding amp. As I have said before, the law of physics apply even to our hobby. It's a matter of reproducing the waveform reaching out ears as accurately as possible in comparison to the waveform that hit the recording mic. With the appropriate equipment (which almost no home enthusiast has) that can be measured very accurately. There is no voodoo or magic fairy dust involved. There is no hitherto undiscovered principle of electromagnetic theory waiting to be discovered. And above a certain price point (I don't know what that is) I'm not convinced improvement is possible. But this is just my own personal view.
 
In the Elise I found something very special at a reasonable price. It brought me a level of enjoyment with headphones I had not experienced before. Because of my faith in FA Audio and H1's guidance, I feel Euforia is a good move for me. I honestly believe it will be my endgame. And with my pending move to Europe I'm guessing I will have a lot of new experiences that may relegate headphone based musical enjoyment to a slightly lesser priority than it has been for the past year and a half. But that's months away. For now I say, "Long Live Elise"
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Jan 18, 2017 at 7:17 AM Post #139 of 11,413
  I just placed my Euforia order for delivery in 3 months when I get to Europe. I feel so morally clean, as I can now legitimately participate on this thread. But oh my!!! I just spent more money.
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Please no more posting here for next 3 months. I don't want to feel jealous.
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GREAT NEWS pct...but 3 months? - I feel your pain already...courage, mon ami!! We are all here to support you in your trials lol!
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What does an audiophile say when someone is screaming? ​
  Aah, those levels are clipping!
 ​
What does an audiophile say when eating great quality 'dollar store' pizza? ​
 Wow that pushes way above its' price point!
 
 
Anyway I've got a few interesting points to share that were passed along from an inquiry this week from Feliks Audio.. just FYI in case it wasn't known yet:
 
  1. The presale ends on January 31st which will not be extended
  2. The Euforia will be shipped only with tubes; no option without
  3. The power output is similar to the Elise, "but the sound has number of extra qualities to it"
  4. RE the sonic performance of Elise compared to Euforia:
    "we havent yet confirmed face to face, but we believe it's now playing in 1 or 2 higher league than Elise"
 
For me, the 3rd point brings up an interesting point - I wonder if perhaps the power output may measure slightly more than the Elise; likewize I'm curious if the transformer is any different or if it really is just its' case being larger.
 
But especially the 4th point peaks my interest - can only imagine what 1-2 leagues higher than the Elise may sound like!

 
Thanks for passing on and confirming F-A's info, DL.
 
It sure would be interesting indeed for someone to measure the actual output figure...but as I mentioned before, I've a feeling that Lukasz's "stronger/cleaner" power output is more down to the same principle that's at work with Yamamoto's highly respected, but apparently under-powered amps (wattage wise) - ie. the circuitry lol!...and delivering therefore what appears to be increased 'power'. I myself have had no confirmation of a different transformer...only that the housing was enlarged and apparently made even more robust.
 
Glad you found my previous impressions of Euforia...and of course there's more cumulative info. re. my findings over on the Elise "Impressions" thread.
 
As for your comments re "deeper into the scene", I do indeed feel this amp delivers a more 'immersive' experience...what I termed more 'intimate', without being too forward/in your face. I don't really like the term "presence" - far too nebulous IMHO! - but somehow music can, depending on how well recorded, sound more 'natural' with even better cohesion and balance...effortless, if you will. Another difficult one is the 'emotional' quality of performance...perhaps the most difficult one of all, as we all vary so widely in just how we experience this aspect of our being. All I can say is that already, a good few of my favourite tracks have stirred in me more feeling than ever before...
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...
 
Which brings me to an observation that can sometimes be a double-edged sword - Euforia's increased detail resolution/clarity/dynamics show up poorly recorded/engineered tracks more so even than Elise lol!.. IMO any amp that 'flatters' a poor recording must (by definition) be doing something at the expense of true and accurate reproduction. But feed Euforia a really good signal - and it needn't always have to be hi-res! - and it will do real (deserved) justice to a good sound engineer. Of course, much also depends on source/DAC (or TT!)/cables/mains PS quality/tubes etc. etc., but my own results are, naturally, based upon everything remaining the same except the amp.
 
Such differences - in my book - counter JazzVinyl's assertion that you can only determine these by double-blind experiment. And especially, I believe an amp's ability to have you feeling differently can often be a better indication than other, more (perhaps!) 'audiophile' aspects.
 
And yes, I know full well we can indeed be fooled by such emotional feelings in the Honeymoon stage with new equipment, but I now believe I'm past that and the real marriage is setting in...(and still no warts lol!...yet!!!
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...despite the fact my cynical side continues to try and find fault/weakness!
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).
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 8:35 AM Post #140 of 11,413
While I don't doubt your opinions for a moment H1, the scientist in me would like some empirical confirmation via some double blind, (or at least blind) testing of Elise v Euforia.
I hope UT has an understanding, patient and co-operative spouse / partner, as he will be one of the first people to own both amps concurrently...
Ideally, this testing would involve the same tubes being used in each amp. Not just the same brand, but swapping over the actual tubes, to remove that variable.
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 8:45 AM Post #141 of 11,413
  @DecentLevi  I want to apologize if I was inappropriate in my comments to you. You and I just have different approaches to our hobby. As I recently said in another place, Live and Let Live)))) However, I do hope all of us will honor H1's guidelines for appropriate moderation in the language we employ on this thread.
 
With respect to Sumit-Fi amps, I may never hear one unless I'm able to attend London CanJam in July. But it doesn't matter to me. Until I finally gave it up in 2009 I was involved in high end audio since the 60s and was in constant pursuit of the latest and greatest. In retrospect, I'm personally convinced that high price does not necessarily mean a better sounding amp. As I have said before, the law of physics apply even to our hobby. It's a matter of reproducing the waveform reaching out ears as accurately as possible in comparison to the waveform that hit the recording mic. With the appropriate equipment (which almost no home enthusiast has) that can be measured very accurately. There is no voodoo or magic fairy dust involved. There is no hitherto undiscovered principle of electromagnetic theory waiting to be discovered. And above a certain price point (I don't know what that is) I'm not convinced improvement is possible. But this is just my own personal view.
 
In the Elise I found something very special at a reasonable price. It brought me a level of enjoyment with headphones I had not experienced before. Because of my faith in FA Audio and H1's guidance, I feel Euforia is a good move for me. I honestly believe it will be my endgame. And with my pending move to Europe I'm guessing I will have a lot of new experiences that may relegate headphone based musical enjoyment to a slightly lesser priority than it has been for the past year and a half. But that's months away. For now I say, "Long Live Elise"
beerchug.gif
 

Couldn't have said it better myself @pctazhp, albeit I have heard systems in the past that are transcendental (in @DecentLevi's terminology)—e.g. the Lamm/Verity system I posted before.
 
As I've written in the past, I've no experience with headphones therefore I was flying blind when I ended up choosing my setup. Reading and cross referencing between opinions about a variety of setups as much as one possibly can, I ended up with the HD600/Elise. I explained my rationale earlier. Nevertheless, when I was researching on the subject it also struck me that I found absolutely no claims that would whole–heartily maintain that the "x" setup ticks every single box that one would hope for in audio reproduction. Hence it felt that choosing a setup would greatly be a matter of personal preference rather than X% better.
 
On these premises, A–to–B comparisons make sense as long as you compare with the full understanding of the subjective parameters involved. For me it was comparing with my Benchmark DAC1 that let me gain insight about the Elise's character. Different beasts, I know, but it let me know whether I actually liked the Elise as much as the cash I had to churn out for it. I did. Now, I'm waiting for the new tubes. Hopefully I'll be able to enjoy what all of you knowledgeable people rave about, namely how well the amp scales with different tubes.
 
As for @DecentLevi, I'm convinced that the poor lad just wants someone to tip him over to the Euforia's bandwagon. To this I say: man, you've got all the fancy tubes and all the fancy headphones—just get on with it! I'm only wary about the others having to cope with your quirky ravings about how the new Euforia with the X tube combination stand for a:
(...)
Mountain top experience
Heavens open and angels descending
The earth move beneath my feet
She sings like a shilah

Etc etc etc
 

:innocent:
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 8:48 AM Post #142 of 11,413
  While I don't doubt your opinions for a moment H1, the scientist in me would like some empirical confirmation via some double blind, (or at least blind) testing of Elise v Euforia.
I hope UT has an understanding, patient and co-operative spouse / partner, as he will be one of the first people to own both amps concurrently...
Ideally, this testing would involve the same tubes being used in each amp. Not just the same brand, but swapping over the actual tubes, to remove that variable.

 
I hear you S67...but certainly much easier said than done in our circumstances lol! I can't say I've ever come across any amp reviews that have been conducted in this way...especially under strict double-blind conditions. And, of course, the mere act alone of having to wait for the tubes to cool down properly, then warm up fully again will incur a long time period, which will have our ears not in precisely the same state lol...etc. etc. etc....TRICKY!!!
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...
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 8:53 AM Post #143 of 11,413
While I don't doubt your opinions for a moment H1, the scientist in me would like some empirical confirmation via some double blind, (or at least blind) testing of Elise v Euforia.
I hope UT has an understanding, patient and co-operative spouse / partner, as he will be one of the first people to own both amps concurrently...
Ideally, this testing would involve the same tubes being used in each amp. Not just the same brand, but swapping over the actual tubes, to remove that variable.
one of the biggest concerns I would have with blind testing or double triple or quadruple blind testing the two amps together you want the exact same headphones the exact same settings got to be measured by an instrument not by ear and you also want the exact same Tubes from one amp to the other so you have to wait 5 minutes until the tubes cool put them back in the other amp and then allowed to warm up and in the meantime your perception of hearing has gone you have to assume I hear this or that memory for hearing is fleeting the only way to accurately compare one to the other would be with instrumentation and there again you're using tubes that have to be warmed up stable and then cool down reinserted warmed back up until they're stable and then conduct the test not saying it can't be done but for an individual to do it without proper instrumentation it's still just a guess.
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 9:26 AM Post #144 of 11,413
We found one of the most important factors is proper distraction of the listener while the rigs were swapped. Someone to talk to the listener and start interviewing his impressions while another prepared the next amp (or not).

If Listener could catch audio cues from behind him as to which rig was coming, it vastly affected his perception of the upcoming amp.

So ideally you need three people, a listener a distract-or and someone 'good with the gear' that can quickly assimilate the next rig (or not, and pretend to).

I think same tubes all around is a step too far, 4 powers and 4 drivers that measure close to one another should be fine.

In the end, you will be surprised at "what you thought you knew" after a proper blind test....

Luck and Cheers...
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 9:39 AM Post #145 of 11,413
We found one of the most important factors is proper distraction of the listener while the rigs were swapped. Someone to talk to the listener and start interviewing his impressions while another prepared the next amp (or not).

If Listener could catch audio cues from behind him as to which rig was coming, it vastly affected his perception of the upcoming amp.

So ideally you need three people, a listener a distract-or and someone 'good with the gear' that can quickly assimilate the next rig (or not, and pretend to).

I think same tubes all around is a step too far, 4 powers and 4 drivers that measure close to one another should be fine.

In the end, you will be surprised at "what you thought you knew" after a proper blind test....

Luck and Cheers...

 
Yo JV...luck being the operative word here lol!!
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...which presumably is why I have yet to read of any such reliable experiments with regard to the sorts of amps in question here. And can't see much hope of this being a practical exercise for us either, I'm afraid!  In the real world, we do indeed have to rely on much less-than-perfect assessments of our experiences...and not just with regard to music LOL!!
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...for better or worse...
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...
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 10:14 AM Post #146 of 11,413
   
Yo JV...luck being the operative word here lol!!
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...which presumably is why I have yet to read of any such reliable experiments with regard to the sorts of amps in question here. And can't see much hope of this being a practical exercise for us either, I'm afraid!  In the real world, we do indeed have to rely on much less-than-perfect assessments of our experiences...and not just with regard to music LOL!!
redface.gif
biggrin.gif
...for better or worse...
darthsmile.gif
...

I have never seen any either, and don't expect to. Such reported true DBTs in audio-land are rare, although millions of words have been spilled over the decades by us audiophiles arguing about DBTs - usually in full food-fight mode. There just aren't the trained professionals, resources or motivation to conduct such tests in the audio realm in a truly scientific manner. And to be truly "scientific" they would have to be repeatable and peer-reviewed. Anyone know where I can find copies of the Journal of Applied Audiophile Science????
 
But if anyone wants to set up something, I'll volunteer as the Distracter - only role for which I'd be qualified.
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PS. I am very aware of the shortfalls of sighted comparisons, expectation bias and all that. And I know any kind of "blind" test is perhaps better than un-sighted comparisons. But remember there are Head-Fi rules about where that is to be discussed, as arguments over "blind" test can easily derail and destroy a thread.
 
PSS. I can hardly wait to see @connieflyer's next "blind" joke
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Jan 18, 2017 at 12:14 PM Post #147 of 11,413
Just pulled the trigger on the new Eforia - inv#100 and scheduled for March 8, 2017.
 
Regarding comparisons, double blind tests etc etc.:
 
I have a completely different approach. One of my measurements connects to the sub conscious - i. e. what I call the toe tapping index. If I play a familiar recording and find myself involuntary tapping my toes with varying intensity (on a scale from 1 - 5, where 5 is the highest), this indicates how much the presentation engages me in the music.
 
On a more serious note I have discovered (and I really was very skeptical about my own ability in the beginning) that my personal judgment of how something sounds, often correlates well with what some other people on this forum hear.  Because of this I am not afraid to recommend certain tubes/combinations, with an emphasis on lesser known and less expensive alternatives.
 
In conclusion, since everybody has different tastes and different equipment, IMHO it is possible to recommend a group of tubes/combinations that are certain to please most people.
Such recommendations are based on listening for an extended time, and not on initial impressions. And to be respectful of others - after all, people are different - never to make fun of somebody who claims that his Photon 6N7S with RCA 6AS7G is the best he has ever heard.
 
Re enthusiasm - wish I had more of it! It is a special feeling to put in a new set of tubes and hear great sound - better than you heard before. Then you have to take your time, and see if your initial impressions stand the test of time. Sometimes flaws in the sound reproduction take a while to identify and comprehend; there might be this little something that grates your nerves in the long run, which you did not hear initially.
 
So I don't feel a need for double blind studies - it's more than good enough to rely on the findings of people on this thread that have a lot of experience listening and whose tastes I have gotten to know.
 
Jan 18, 2017 at 12:59 PM Post #148 of 11,413
@mordy. I love the toe tapping test )))  I first heard about it way back when Linn was still fighting digital and attempting to perpetuate vinyl. Works great for me
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Jan 18, 2017 at 1:34 PM Post #150 of 11,413
I just need to say this one more time. The F-A people not only make very special amps, but they are wonderful to deal with. I hope that someday I will have the pleasure of meeting Lukasz and/or his father.
 

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