[bigshot]

If you have to shove your ears up next to the tweeters, it doesn't matter. I thought you were talking about hiss that was audible at normal listening levels from a normal listening position. You shouldn't be able to hear that with a decent modern solid state amp. If I was getting that, I'd try to chase it down, whether it is a mistake in the way it's set up (impedance? interference? etc.), or a defective amp. If I bought an amp with audible hiss like that, I sure wouldn't keep it. I'd send it back for a refund.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

If you have to shove your ears up next to the tweeters, it doesn't matter. I thought you were talking about hiss that was audible at normal listening levels from a normal listening position. You shouldn't be able to hear that with a decent modern solid state amp. If I was getting that, I'd try to chase it down, whether it is a mistake in the way it's set up (impedance? interference? etc.), or a defective amp. If I bought an amp with audible hiss like that, I sure wouldn't keep it. I'd send it back for a refund.

If I turn my pioneer A-209R direct button off, even if i am a few feet away from my speakers, there is an audible hiss. And I've also tested this having the amplifier in the middle of the room when i tested a subwoofer setup. This is the sort of thing that other people I know don't seem to notice other than if they are really sensitive like me. The direct button makes it go completely, unless i do the pointless ear to tweeter test. But I've come across many amplifiers that don't have a perfectly hiss free output. Most are very quiet. And if it is quiet for someone like me, then most others really won't notice it. I just find these things annoying at times when amplifiers are on with no music playing. The tangent amplifier does the same sort of hiss as the pioneer, just louder and doesn't have a direct button that seems to help with it.

it is a similar story with my Yamaha AS300. There is a hiss that actually does just about become apparent when direct is off. This is noticeable if you happen to be sat close to the speakers such as within a few feet. There was a time when someone else in my family a bit younger than me noticed a hiss when they were sat near them doing something else and I worked out it was the amplifier. We used to have it off direct so we could turn the bass down a notch when it was in use. But with no sound playing and direct off, you can hear a hiss, especially if your ears are close to being level with the tweeters. All my amps are in a different location and they all do seem to hiss a bit, it just varies with each and the direct button (which two of them have) seems to cut it out. Given it is the same sort of sound on all of them (other than the volume of the hiss), to me, this almost is a "normal" occurrence on even modern hifi. It just seems a lot worse on my tangent amp.

 

[bigshot]

We're talking about audible hiss when the volume pot is at a normal listening level, right? It sounds to me like you have a noisy sound processing filter of some sort. If your amp has tone controls or EQ, it may be not performing to spec, or maybe you have the treble cranked? On my Yamaha AVR, I don't hear any hiss when I switch direct on and off. If all your amps put out audible hiss, are they all the same kind of amp? The only time I had an amp with audible hiss was back in the 70s when my dad gave me a Heathkit amp he made (and I think he did something wrong when he built it). Do you hear audible hiss on other people's systems? I'm trying to think what might cause this... Do they get hot? Could the amps be getting old? could you have had a lightning strike nearby that caused a line surge?

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

We're talking about audible hiss when the volume pot is at a normal listening level, right? It sounds to me like you have a noisy sound processing filter of some sort. If your amp has tone controls or EQ, it may be not performing to spec, or maybe you have the treble cranked? On my Yamaha AVR, I don't hear any hiss when I switch direct on and off. If all your amps put out audible hiss, are they all the same kind of amp? The only time I had an amp with audible hiss was back in the 70s when my dad gave me a Heathkit amp he made (and I think he did something wrong when he built it). Do you hear audible hiss on other people's systems? I'm trying to think what might cause this... Do they get hot? Could the amps be getting old? could you have had a lightning strike nearby that caused a line surge?

My Pioneer A-209R is around 8 years old. It has always made some kind of deep hum when in operation that can only be heard when very close when near the grill. It certainly does run warm compared to average I'd say for an amplifier. But within a year of having it, it had an unrelated fault which Amazon send me a replacement for. This one has been perfectly reliable, but still runs pretty warm even when not doing anything. It still makes this deep hum, but that is very quiet and doesn't bother me. Both with this and my Yamaha AS300 which are both very similar amplifiers, they do have something that makes a hiss audible from a few feet away from the speakers when direct is off, even if the EQ dials are in the neutral position. This admittedly is not where we listen to them from. They are normally just used with our TV from viewing distance and it isn't even audible with this amplifier. But when doing other stuff and we forget to turn the amp off, I sometimes notice this. There is a blu-ray player on top of the amp, but that is unplugged when not in use. So I doubt this will be interfering. The reason why I unplug it is unsurprisingly due to my sensitive hearing again again; it emits a high pitched whine even when turned off which drives me mad unless the area has enough background noise to mask it. This is probably just the transformer in the player, but I'm still quite amazed just how many audio visual devices have noisy transformers in them.

Given so many amps do this (some more than others), I do wonder if we could have a noisy mains circuit or just something interfering with it. But the amps that have a direct button always solve this problem when turned on.

Something that may help explain that my circuits may get interference in them easily was when I bought an LED dimmer switch that I had to return. In the UK at least, your lighting circuits are on a separate circuit to the mains sockets. But after installing the switch, when dimming the LED, the most obvious buzz could be heard through my amp and speakers weather direct was on or not. Anyone could have heard this, even at low volumes. I was baffled at the time as the lighting circuit (all in the wall and ceiling) doesn't even run close to any of my amplifiers cables or the mains circuit. But it does eventually meet up at the consumer unit obviously, but I still am puzzled by that issue even today. I bought a different dimmer switch and haven't had that issue since.

If it was a problem with my circuits though, I would have thought i would hear the same noise through my computer setup with my headphone amps. I hear a lot of computer noise when my FiiO A3 is charging, but I know that is due to the USB cable charging it coming from my computer. When connected to my DAC, if it is just running off the battery, the background noise is minimal, unless turned up louder than needed. This DAC is also outputting to my A-209r, which is what has this quiet hiss unless on direct.

Even my wharfedale subwoofer (SW150) has a rather noticeable hum. Even when just power and no input is connected to it. Due to where it is placed, it isn't really noticeable, but I reckon that if it was in the ideal position for a larger room (which I don't have), I would certainly notice it. Out of interest, I took the driver out and could hear that both the driver and amplifier were making this humming sound. Luckily I don't use the phono input on this subwoofer as as soon as I connect any cable to it (no matter how well shielded it is), it almost acts like an aerial and just amplifies that hum to the subwoofer. With my setup, I use the speaker cables from my amplifier and connect them to the terminals and then loop through to the speakers and that seems to have no issue. My two main amplifiers (the yamaha and pioneer) are not a problem as they are almost always used on direct. The tangent ampster amp is does make the speakers have same sort of hiss as both of the others do, just a bit louder and has no direct button, so that is what makes it come across worse. Then as I mentioned, it also has the common transformer whine that so many things seem to have these days. At least I can mask that as I've built a shelf around it.



I really don't know if this is going to be to do with my circuit in the house. Even every time I've been to a concert when no audio is playing, I can always tell when they have the speakers and mics connected. Weather other people hear this every time, I'm not sure, but I always hear a noticeable buzz or hiss. Even on many live albums recorded albums, hearing the buzz from the amps/speakers at the venue during quiet pieces of music as well as between tracks is what puts me of listening to it. I also remember when I was at school, I always got annoyed by the background noise from the PA systems in the halls when others wondered what I was hearing...


As the title of this thread suggests. Could it just be that i am just oversensitive and notice significantly more than average?

 

[Speedskater]

The only time I had an amp with audible hiss was back in the 70s when my dad gave me a Heathkit amp he made (and I think he did something wrong when he built it)

No the early 1970's Heathkit amps and control amps had a lot of hiss.

 

[bigshot]

Line noise is a hoodoo. Hard to know what will trigger it. Could cutting in a direct button make a difference with line noise? Maybe. Would a line noise filter fix it? Maybe not. That's the kind of stuff I just experiment with. If your phono input is causing noise, that definitely indicates ground loop problems. You might try earthing various parts of your system and see what happens. Your house has three prong power sockets, right?

PA systems are a whole different animal. There are a million potential problems there. Not a direct comparison.

 

[gregorio]

As the title of this thread suggests. Could it just be that i am just oversensitive and notice significantly more than average?

Although you may not realise it, your posts cover a very wide area, a number of different scientific fields and exhibit a number of false assumptions and correlations. It's entirely understandable that you would seek an explanation for what you are experiencing, especially if you believe it significantly differs from what others experience but unfortunately, you appear to have jumped to various conclusions based on incomplete information and without verifying cause/effect. For example, much of what you describe could simply be the result of [1] electrical issues and have nothing to do with your hearing, EG, You are not "hypersensitive". Even if you are actually [2] hypersensitive, the term "hypersensitivity" (with regard to hearing) doesn't mean what you appear to think it means and, [3] "noticing" and "noticing more than average" is a different thing again and can depend on [3b] environmental considerations.

I'll briefly explain the different points:

1. The most likely explanation of hum you mention is some sort of ground loop issue. With regard to hiss, ALL analogue audio devices MUST produce hiss, this can effectively be considered a "law of physics". Whether this hiss is audible though, depends on various factors: Electrical matching for example, inappropriate electrical characteristics (power/impedance/sensitivity) between the amp and transducers (speakers or headphones), can easily produce audible hiss and so can inappropriate gain-staging (with appropriately matched amp and transducers). And, these conditions are not uncommon.

2. This is a specialist medical field of which I only have passing knowledge. If you seriously suspect you have some form of aural hypersensitivity, please do NOT rely on or accept what I or anyone else here states, PLEASE seek a professional specialist medical opinion! Because: Aural hypersensitivity can be indicative of other medical conditions, can be progressive (EG. Get worse with time), can reach the point of being extremely debilitating (EG. Ruin your life!) and there are treatments which can reduce or in some cases completely eliminate the symptoms of certain types of hypersensitivity. Having emphasised this, here's the bit of knowledge I have: There's really no such thing as "hypersensitivity" in the sense of having better (lower) audibility thresholds than others. In fact it's the opposite, it's a hearing deficiency. Those with some form of hypersensitivity (of which I believe there are four types) typically have a higher audibility threshold but in some cases the threshold is the same. In other words, the quietest sound that those with hypersensitivity can hear is LOUDER than the quietest sound those without hypersensitivity can hear, although in some cases is the same. IE. "Hypersensitivity" is the opposite of what we might assume, it's LESS sensitivity to the quietest sounds! What is different with those who have some form of hypersensitivity is their response to relatively loud sounds. Some illustrative examples might help: Let's say we have a very quiet hiss at 10dBSPL that's just audible to most people, given certain listening conditions. Given those same conditions, those with most forms of hypersensitivity would not be able to hear this 10dBSPL hiss, some might have the same 10dBSPL threshold but none would have a lower threshold. Now let's say we have background hiss at 50dBSPL that's clearly audible. As it's a background hiss most people would either not be bothered by it at all or be mildly annoyed but someone with hypersensitivity could find it uncomfortable or in extreme cases, painful. Maybe a better term instead of "Hyper-sensitivity" would be "Hypo-tolerance"?

3. "Noticing" is also rather problematic/complex. It can be related to tolerance as in the previous point or it can be unrelated, say a consequence of listening skills. We have to remember though that we ALL fail to "notice" even relatively loud sounds. The most obvious example is our own heartbeat, most of the time we are unaware/don't notice it but under certain conditions, some high stress situations or in some cases extremely abnormal acoustic conditions (say an anechoic chamber) we do notice it and it's pretty loud! In such circumstances our heartbeat obviously doesn't suddenly become say 1,000 times louder, what changes by 1,000 times is our brain subconsciously filtering out that sound from our perception. Blood flowing through our blood vessels and our nervous system firing electrical signals is also moderately loud but again, we almost never "notice" it.

3a. Environmental conditions also make a huge difference. For example, a standard 100w incandescent light bulb produces about 10dBSPL and is quite easy to hear in certain environmental conditions (say an anechoic chamber) but if your listening environment has a more typical 40dBSPL noise floor, then you won't hear it. Plus, that 10dBSPL is at 1m distance, at several meters distance you wouldn't be able to hear it even in an anechoic chamber and at a very much closer distance it could be audible even in a more typical room (careful you don't burn your pinna though!). Pretty much every amp/speaker combination will produce at least that level of hiss and you'll hear it in a quiet enough room with your ear near enough the tweeter. PA systems commonly produce very high levels of hiss but at the listening distances involved and the relatively high environment noise floor it's not usually too much of an issue but I typically do notice it and sometimes to the point of annoyance. Another complication is that both our hearing and our perception can adapt to environmental conditions .... in a relatively few seconds/minutes to some conditions (large changes in volume for example) or over the course of weeks/months, in the case of certain acoustic room properties.

Another possibility, not mentioned above, is "placebo effect". It would be good to devise some tests/experiments to eliminate what you can (placebo for example), hopefully narrow down your issue to one of the above points and then it would be easier to come up with solution, rather than just guessing at all manner of things that may not have anything to do with your issue.

G

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Yea I did think myself that all my amplifiers did send out some kind of hiss and as I mentioned, I thought that was normal. I just find some amps are worse than others and I mentioned it as I notice it more than others.


You have raised a good point about thinking how sound is effecting me. It could possibly be that I think about the sounds too much, therefore i hear them more easily. It usually starts off with me hearing something that is only irritating when quiet, then having to identify where it is coming from and thinking about it a bit too much. Sometimes when I'm distracted by other things, I don't notice them. It has been the case that with certain sounds, if others who i know try to hear it, then they can also notice it. But they just don't normally think about it and obviously have managed to filter it out. This area of what I've been discussing will certainly be related to my Autism. I always do hear these things more than most others it seems, but sometimes I cope with better at certain times depending on what I'm doing.

It was difficult thinking of how to start this thread and it has gone in all directions and it may be best not to say too much more in it. I'm not at the point I need to worry about my hearing or anything.

Regarding the high pitched sounds that come from transformers and other things, that is something that I think is purely related to me having sensitive hearing just because of how high pitched it is. I'm not the only one that is around my age in my family that notices these sorts of things either. Given that not all transformers make this sound (audible noise) as well as not all of my amps making an audible hum, I'm not 100% certain about the loop problem but then i don't know enough about it to conclude that. The same amplifiers make this hum it wherever you put them. Same story with the ones that don't, so I think it is the products themselves. This hum is no big issue as deep sounds i don't get irritated by at least.

I did find it difficult to decide weather I should post what I did and I maybe have dragged it out a bit far. I also don't have good memory so I sometimes can end up repeating myself as i write. I also can end up looking like I've changed my view a little since my last point which is possibly what has made my points a bit messed up.

 

[bigshot]

I would recommend trying to address a ground loop problem first. That’s the most likely culprit. It’s also the most maddening to track down!

 

[gregorio]

[1] Yea I did think myself that all my amplifiers did send out some kind of hiss and as I mentioned, I thought that was normal.
[1a] I just find some amps are worse than others and I mentioned it as I notice it more than others.
[2] You have raised a good point about thinking how sound is effecting me. It could possibly be that I think about the sounds too much, therefore i hear them more easily.
[2a] This area of what I've been discussing will certainly be related to my Autism.
[3] I'm not at the point I need to worry about my hearing or anything.

1. Yes, it's not just normal, it's unavoidable but in any properly matched decent system (my point #1 previously) AND with reasonable environmental conditions, for example an appropriate listening position (not with your ear next to the tweeters, my point #3a previously), then you shouldn't hear the hiss.
1a. This is where we have to be careful, especially here on head-fi, because this is an area where audiophiles commonly are not careful and end-up making factually incorrect assertions. For example, let's say we have two amps: Amp "A" with a max output power of 100w per channel and Amp "B" with 50w per channel. To get the same volume out of our speakers, which are say 100w, amp "B" will have to be set at a higher volume (gain). Typically, the higher the gain setting of an amp, the more hiss it will produce and in this example, amp "B" might need to be set to say 80% of it's max output (for the desired speaker volume), while amp "A" is at 40%, so amp "B" might be producing audible hiss while amp "A" might not. However, we cannot say that amp "B" produces more hiss! Because given the same conditions, both amps running at say 40% gain, they are probably producing roughly the same amount of hiss. The issue here is not the amp but the inappropriate load (the speakers). So, it's probably not that "some amps are worse than others" but that some amps have a lower power output (or other electrical property, such as too high an impedance) which requires a high enough gain setting to produce audible hiss with your particular speakers and listening environment.

2. That could easily be an issue of concentration/focus, effectively "listening skills" . It's a particular issue for sound/music engineers. For example: Let's say we're mixing a typical rock track, we isolate (called "solo'ing") say the snare drum, fine tune it's EQ and other processing and then un-solo it and fine tune it's balance with the rest of the mix (instruments) so it's perfect. Then we go home for the day, come back next morning and listen to the mix and it's rubbish! The snare drum isn't just a bit too quiet (relative to the rest of the mix), it's way too quiet, completely wrong. How could we have made such a big obvious error? That's human perception for you, the very act of focusing our attention on something is the act of causing our perception to emphasise that "something" and de-emphasise everything else, and in that state of heightened snare drum emphasis, the balance was correct with the rest of the mix. But on another occasion, without that perceptual snare drum emphasis, the balance is completely wrong. With experience we learn to minimise this effect, for example, not spend too long focused on a single instrument/sound when mixing, but we still have to spend time checking our previous work, to make sure we haven't fallen victim to it. Of course, there's nothing "wrong" with our hearing/perception, or even particularly "different". Given the same circumstances, other people would respond the same. The reason they don't is because "other people" typically do NOT have these same circumstances. However, from your description of "thinking about these sounds too much", you could be creating these "same conditions", in which case you could be completely "normal" and there is nothing wrong with your hearing or perception. Therefore:
2a. You cannot jump to that conclusion! It MAYBE related to your autism but isn't "certainly" related to it. There are two reasons (as far as I'm aware) that it maybe related: A). A symptom of Autism can be abnormal fixations or focus on specific details/subjects or B). Some forms of aural hypersensitivity that are rare in the general population are far more common in those who have autism. However, you haven't ruled out that you're not hypersensitive or that you're not just being a bit "fussy" as opposed to an "abnormal fixation" or even that it's just a "placebo effect". I know people who, according to your description, are equally fussy but do not have autism or any other disorder. So, you cannot be "certain"!

3. If it is related to your autism though and it's due to reason "A", there is nothing wrong with your hearing. BUT if it's due to reason "B", there IS something wrong with your hearing and it might be treatable, and long term might be detrimental if you don't treat it. So, you *might* be "at the point you need to worry about your hearing" but I really have no idea, the only thing of which I am CERTAIN is that I am NOT qualified in this area and have no more than a basic/passing knowledge!!!

G