[michaelhwolff]

Power conditioners may or may not be beneficial to you system. I would say that the majority of them are. So lets talk about the importance of the power cord that comes from the power conditioner to you CD player.

You have gone to the expense of adding a power conditioner to filter, regenerate, and make your power as clean as you can get it. Then after that expense you put the stock cord back in place which has a crucial effect on the power that has just been cleaned or conditioned.

Back to the water analogy. You use reverse osmosis and carbon to condition the water as it comes out of the tap. Then for some unkown reason you drink from a cup that has coffee stains in the bottom which was used for breakfast. Hmmmm. You just negated the reason for having all the filtration.

Does this help to understand that the power conditioner is just part of the link. I would say that any power cord used prior to the power conditioner would be where you might be able to use the standard cord.
But then you have to be a believer.

Regards,
Michael

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot People buy into expensive cables because they are the cheapest aspect of assembling an audiophile rig. People say to themselves, "I'll never be able to afford a $5,000 CD player or $12,000 speakers, but I can afford a $200 power cord!" That's putting the cart before the horse.

Some people may do that. Perhaps you have a friend or two who did that, and that leads you to believe what everybody does. On the other hand, I know a few "people" who bought expensive power cords for an entirely different reason. People do different things for different reasons, and you really can't put everyone into neat little categories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot The truth is, that expensive cables are the least effective way of improving your sound... getting better speakers, a cleaner source or a better amp will always make MUCH more difference. Once you've done all of those upgrades to the ultimate degree, then you might as well go the extra few bucks to get nice cables to hook everything together. Perhaps it might make a tiny improvement in the sound... But for a midrange system, buying fancy cables is like throwing money in a hole.

Depends what you mean by "expensive," "least effective," "midrange system," etc. But many people report significant improvements from upgraded power cords even though they haven't upgraded the rest of their system "to the ultimate degree," whatever that means. So like many other aspects of this hobby, what doesn't work for one person or doesn't yield an audible improvement to one person's ears in that person's system might have an entirely different effect in someone else's.

 

[Sinbios]

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelhwolff Power conditioners may or may not be beneficial to you system. I would say that the majority of them are. So lets talk about the importance of the power cord that comes from the power conditioner to you CD player. You have gone to the expense of adding a power conditioner to filter, regenerate, and make your power as clean as you can get it. Then after that expense you put the stock cord back in place which has a crucial effect on the power that has just been cleaned or conditioned. Back to the water analogy. You use reverse osmosis and carbon to condition the water as it comes out of the tap. Then for some unkown reason you drink from a cup that has coffee stains in the bottom which was used for breakfast. Hmmmm. You just negated the reason for having all the filtration. Does this help to understand that the power conditioner is just part of the link. I would say that any power cord used prior to the power conditioner would be where you might be able to use the standard cord. But then you have to be a believer. Regards, Michael

I think the water analogy is pretty broken; the cup would be the equivilent of your phones/amp. However, the tap would be the equivilent of the power cord. Now, if the water has travelled through thousands of kilometers of rusted piping, do you think putting in a fancy chrome or silver piping will fix the problem? I think in your example, you are assuming that the thousands of kilos of piping is /good/, and that the water that travels through these pipes and arrive at your house could be contaminated by something /bad/ i.e. as you say, a stained coffee mug. However, this isn't the case with electricity; the thousands of kilos of wiring is plain and cheap; much like my rusty pipe analogy, will a fancy tap/cable at the end of the line fix the problems with the rusty piping/cheap power grid wiring? I'd like to think that a chain is only as strong as the weakest link; if the electricity has to go through a lot of "weak links" before reaching the amazing "strong link", will that prevent the chain from breaking?

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS People do different things for different reasons, and you really can't put everyone into neat little categories.... what doesn't work for one person or doesn't yield an audible improvement to one person's ears in that person's system might have an entirely different effect in someone else's.

If what you say is true, all advice is worthless, because everyone's experience is totally different and no one's experience applies to anyone else. I'm sorry, I don't think the world is quite that random. Semantic and theoretical arguments don't interest me as much as logical and fact filled ones.

See ya
Steve

 

[Len]

As far as power to your gear is concerned, it really begins at the step-down transformer at your house (or arguably the circuit breaker). The miles of cable from the power plant is totally irrelevant. With that in mind, the electrical wiring of most houses is 14-12 AWG. Most equipment manufacturers provide you power cables that are only 18-16 AWG, with the worst offenders provding 22-20 AWG. The most important thing, IME, is feeding your amp with a power cable that can sufficiently channel enough voltage and amperage to your equipment. The secondary issue is filtering. For example, in one particular room in my house, I can readily hear differences between heavily shielded cables (e.g. ferrite impreganated) versus virtually uninsulated cables. YMMV.

I own a bunch of expensive bontique power cables, but to be honest, I can't discern most of them from one another. So why do I own these cables? I own them because they are better then stock, because I can't DIY to save my life, and because I can afford them.

 

[Len]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinbios I think the water analogy is pretty broken; the cup would be the equivilent of your phones/amp. However, the tap would be the equivilent of the power cord. Now, if the water has travelled through thousands of kilometers of rusted piping, do you think putting in a fancy chrome or silver piping will fix the problem? I think in your example, you are assuming that the thousands of kilos of piping is /good/, and that the water that travels through these pipes and arrive at your house could be contaminated by something /bad/ i.e. as you say, a stained coffee mug. However, this isn't the case with electricity; the thousands of kilos of wiring is plain and cheap; much like my rusty pipe analogy, will a fancy tap/cable at the end of the line fix the problems with the rusty piping/cheap power grid wiring? I'd like to think that a chain is only as strong as the weakest link; if the electricity has to go through a lot of "weak links" before reaching the amazing "strong link", will that prevent the chain from breaking?

If the plumbing is thousands of KM of rusted piping, a reverse osmosis (or deionization) filter will make pure water (for all intents and purposes) in the last few inches of the chain of custody. The "strong link" in this circumstance, fixes nearly all the the problems of the links proceeding it. I think that was the point being made, though I'm not convinced power cables have as dramatic of an impact.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot If what you say is true, all advice is worthless, because everyone's experience is totally different and no one's experience applies to anyone else. I'm sorry, I don't think the world is quite that random. Semantic and theoretical arguments don't interest me as much as logical and fact filled ones. See ya Steve

Your first statement is completely illogical, insofar as it is a deduction based on what I said previously (and you accuse others of not listening to what YOU say?!), while your last sentence purports to state you're interested only in logic and fact. Hilarious.

 

[Sinbios]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Len If the plumbing is thousands of KM of rusted piping, a reverse osmosis (or deionization) filter will make pure water (for all intents and purposes) in the last few inches of the chain of custody. The "strong link" in this circumstance, fixes nearly all the the problems of the links proceeding it. I think that was the point being made, though I'm not convinced power cables have as dramatic of an impact.

Indeed. Now equate the reverse osmosis filter with a power conditioner.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS Your first statement is completely illogical, insofar as it is a deduction based on what I said previously (and you accuse others of not listening to what YOU say?!), while your last sentence purports to state you're interested only in logic and fact. Hilarious.

One or two people you may have met might have agreed with you that my first statement was illogical, but that doesn't mean that others might not see it as perfectly logical. People believe things for different reasons, and you can't really put my comments in a neat little category like that.

Of course, it depends on what you mean by "logic" or "fact". You might think that my last sentence is hilarious, whatever that means, but there are other people who wouldn't find it funny at all. So what might be humorous for some people, might have an entirely different effect on someone else.

Can you see how meaningless this sort of argument is now?

See ya
Steve

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot One or two people you may have met might have agreed with you that my first statement was illogical, but that doesn't mean that others might not see it as perfectly logical. People believe things for different reasons, and you can't really put my comments in a neat little category like that. Of course, it depends on what you mean by "logic" or "fact". You might think that my last sentence is hilarious, whatever that means, but there are other people who wouldn't find it funny at all. So what might be humorous for some people, might have an entirely different effect on someone else. Can you see how meaningless this sort of argument is now? See ya Steve

Yes, I do find that talking with you is usually meaningless, as you are incapable of seeing anybody's viewpoint but your own, and you excel at misdirection and mischaracterizing what others say. I'm sure you think you're quite clever. Judging from other threads I've read, I'm also sure I'm not the first one to get sick of your sophistic arguments. Ta ta.

 

[bigshot]

Sorry if I made you cry.

Ref: http://members.aol.com/intwg/flamewars.htm
Another Ref: http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm

See ya
Steve

 

[Wmcmanus]

PhilS and bigshot, I'm about to lock this thread because, as always with DBT topics, it has degenerated into a flame war, trolling, and a general disrespect for each other's points of view.

In the meantime, I'll let this thread stand and serve as a solid piece evidence as to why we have to live with the DBT-free policy that is now in effect.

 

[aerius]

How? I have no idea yet, but I now know it does make a difference. About 3-4 weeks ago I replaced the 18ga lamp cord on my amp with 14ga romex house wire. Shouldn't make a difference since my amp only uses 60-70W total and has pretty extensive power supply filtering. But it did. Had a friend over and did an A/B test along with some blind testing, differences were small but clear and picked up on every time.

So I know they can make differences. How much potential difference I don't know, nor do I know how. Nor do I know what effects an expensive aftermarket cord will have.

 

[michaelhwolff]

And never the tween shall meet. I am always amazed that some people become enranged when others don't believe as they do.

Me, I will never believe it is possible for a powered machine to fly through the air.

 

[euclid]

im sorry but these thoretical debates are shot, if you cant tell the sonic difference a power cord or interconnect can make then your ears are shot too. i honeslty think thats the difference, just like some people cant judge the contrast or sharpness difference between camera lenses, so they hate on those who can and preach that everyone is wasting his money.

ultimately the haters are just cheap and even if some scientific proof did surface about which materials affect which audio frequencies they wouldnt buy the cables anyway. then the debate would twist to cost/benefit ratio not being worth it. fine with me, the more you know the less you talk.