[Ashimaru]

I think it's a Harman Target OE compare to Ety Target.
If Harman IE has more lower treble.

 

[AnyDave]

Interesting. Do you mean similar to ER2XR or ER(3|4)XR?

Also my question still stands about the "why" behind particulars of the bass-boost on the ER2XR.

Ah, sorry. The bass boost on the EVO is really closer to the ER2XR than the ER3/4XR. There are some mechanical limitations to what we can do with the single BA driver on the ER3/4. We have more sculpting ability with the EVO's dual bass drivers.

As far as the "why", it's because I (and others) happen to like that style of bass boost. We've been kicking around internal prototypes with similar curves (particularly with dynamic drivers) since 2008 or 2009, long before Sean Olive released his target. That's not in any way a dig at the curve, it just wasn't around when we started. Since accuracy in low frequencies wasn't the target, the boost ended up catering more towards our personal preferences, which in my case is a boost with a low enough corner frequency that it doesn't muck up the upper bass and lower mids. So no, we didn't really start out with a target "this is what we need to hit" curve for the bass. There was trial and error, a lot of listening and some arguments with some spirited discussions with driver manufacturers about what we wanted.

The biggest delay in getting the XR series made was internal. An intentionally inaccurate bass response wasn't really part of the company's ethos, so it took a bit of convincing. Sure, we had released the ER4P, but I've long argued (and still do) that it wasn't really a true bass boost. It was a tilt that gave the impression of more bass and less highs. But the motivation for it (back in the day) was gained sensitivity so that it could be used with the relatively weak outputs of portable players at the time. The XR series is the same sensitivity as the SE/SR series, so it's only about adding bass (thus reducing objective accuracy). Mead (Killion, Etymotic's founder) still makes fun of me on occasion for it, but it has been well received so his teasing doesn't bother me too much.

 

[tinyman392]

I think it's a Harman Target OE compare to Ety Target.
If Harman IE has more lower treble.

Regarding the slight differences > 1kHz, I'm curious if Harman's coupler differs slightly from Etymotic's where it results in a sightly different 2-3kHz spike for their target.

I've always seen the Harman target as being DF with a slight bass boost and a bit of control in the treble. I'd also note that the Harman Target for IEMs differs from the Harman Target for full-sized headphones in that it asks for about 10 dB of boost to the bass (in its current state). I think you're showing the headphone target that they have. The in-ear target also seems to boost the 5-6k further a couple dB too. Though I'll also note that the Harman Target has changed quite a few times throughout the years.

 

[InvisibleInk]

Ah, sorry. The bass boost on the EVO is really closer to the ER2XR than the ER3/4XR. There are some mechanical limitations to what we can do with the single BA driver on the ER3/4. We have more sculpting ability with the EVO's dual bass drivers.

As far as the "why", it's because I (and others) happen to like that style of bass boost. We've been kicking around internal prototypes with similar curves (particularly with dynamic drivers) since 2008 or 2009, long before Sean Olive released his target. That's not in any way a dig at the curve, it just wasn't around when we started. Since accuracy in low frequencies wasn't the target, the boost ended up catering more towards our personal preferences, which in my case is a boost with a low enough corner frequency that it doesn't muck up the upper bass and lower mids. So no, we didn't really start out with a target "this is what we need to hit" curve for the bass. There was trial and error, a lot of listening and some arguments with some spirited discussions with driver manufacturers about what we wanted.

The biggest delay in getting the XR series made was internal. An intentionally inaccurate bass response wasn't really part of the company's ethos, so it took a bit of convincing. Sure, we had released the ER4P, but I've long argued (and still do) that it wasn't really a true bass boost. It was a tilt that gave the impression of more bass and less highs. But the motivation for it (back in the day) was gained sensitivity so that it could be used with the relatively weak outputs of portable players at the time. The XR series is the same sensitivity as the SE/SR series, so it's only about adding bass (thus reducing objective accuracy). Mead (Killion, Etymotic's founder) still makes fun of me on occasion for it, but it has been well received so his teasing doesn't bother me too much.

This is fascinating. When you get a sabbatical, would you do us a favor and write a book about all this? I'm tired of reading histories of Apple, Microsoft, Google, etc.. I want to read a book about Etymotic's history for a change. Cheers!

 

[Zachik]

Ah, sorry. The bass boost on the EVO is really closer to the ER2XR than the ER3/4XR. There are some mechanical limitations to what we can do with the single BA driver on the ER3/4. We have more sculpting ability with the EVO's dual bass drivers.

Since Dave said it first... I totally agree that the bass on the EVO is "XR-style".

As far as the "why", it's because I (and others) happen to like that style of bass boost.

Yup! Count me in for "others" who like the bass boost
Currently, the only XR that I got is the ER3XR, and it is my favorite "previous gen" Etymotic IEM. I still got to try the ER2XR and see how the dynamic driver fair with the bass boost.

The biggest delay in getting the XR series made was internal. An intentionally inaccurate bass response wasn't really part of the company's ethos, so it took a bit of convincing.

I am really glad you prevailed.
One of my buddies keep saying I am a "closet basshead"... My reaction is: I am not hiding it

 

[qsk78]

Interesting. I expected more resolution/ larger soundstage/ better instrument separation from EVO in comparison with ER4 series but definitely not "more bass"

 

[Zachik]

Interesting. I expected more resolution/ larger soundstage/ better instrument separation from EVO in comparison with ER4 series but definitely not "more bass"

Which ER4 are you referring to? ER4SR or ER4XR?
Hopefully @EtyDave will have a FR graph soon, so we can have objective data on the bass.

 

[AnyDave]

Here's a start: Mead Killion, the founder of Etymotic, originally worked at Knowles designing receivers and microphones amongst other things. His knowledge on this stuff is very deep, as are his opinions.

Another tidbit: the ER4 was originally a skunkworks project and not part of the company plan. It wasn't until protos existed that Mead agreed to throw some money at it and make it a reality. The company origins was hearing health and audiometric research. Consumer products wasn't part of the plan. Without that off-hours project, I wouldn't be posting here in this thread (although I'd still be on Head-Fi as I was here before I worked for Etymotic).

 

[Zachik]

Dave - would this edited FR graph tell the story then?

 

[491838]

We've been kicking around internal prototypes with similar curves (particularly with dynamic drivers) since 2008 or 2009, long before Sean Olive released his target. That's not in any way a dig at the curve, it just wasn't around when we started. Since accuracy in low frequencies wasn't the target, the boost ended up catering more towards our personal preferences, which in my case is a boost with a low enough corner frequency that it doesn't muck up the upper bass and lower mids. So no, we didn't really start out with a target "this is what we need to hit" curve for the bass. There was trial and error, a lot of listening and some arguments with some spirited discussions with driver manufacturers about what we wanted.

I like the Etymotic target because it leans slightly towards warmth in the treble and mids compared to Harman. I liked the ER4 a lot except that it didn't quite follow the target completely. Some of the upper mids/treble was recessed around 6-8K compared to the lift above 8K. Also, getting the intended upper treble linearity is a bit tricky with the various options in terms of tips.

I'm hoping that the Evo is closer to the target or improves it in some way (i.e. by adding more treble). I'd love to see some measurements soon.

 

[AnyDave]

Dave - would this edited FR graph tell the story then?

Not accurately, but that's very funny.

 

[Zachik]

Not accurately, but that's very funny.

I wasn't going for accuracy, so I guess I succeeded

 

[SXero]

Mead Killion [...] His knowledge on this stuff is very deep, as are his opinions.

That's pretty funny too.

Dave - would this edited FR graph tell the story then?

Einstein once said you should simplify, but not simpler than that. I disagree; this is properly funny.

 

[qsk78]

Which ER4 are you referring to? ER4SR or ER4XR?
Hopefully @EtyDave will have a FR graph soon, so we can have objective data on the bass.

Well, I personally prefer the tonality of the ER3SE over ER4SR/S, still neutral but with more body and "meat on the bones".
The only XR version I heard was ER3XR and that was too much bass for me.

 

[CK Moustache]

For "serious" CD listening, my ER-4S and the ER4SR as well as on occasions the ER2SE are clearly my way to go (sometimes also my InEar ProPhile 8 or Ultimate Ears Reference Monitors, but the ER-4S and ER4SR get more ear time). But for recreational non-CD, "random" music listening, a bass boost with a certain shape that IEMs such as the ER2XR, Oriveti O400 or my Earsonics ES3, Moondrop Starfield or Shure SE846 have, is just the kind of bass boost implementation and fun that I enjoy as well (hence the ER2XR, Starfield and O400 are among my (all-time?) favourite IEMs (top 5-ish/top 10-ish) for recreational music listening/films (and interestingly enough all are heading into the same overall tonal direction and have got comparable bass boost implementations, but with different quantities) - the Starfield as a less strongly isolating, bassier, warmer but otherwise similarly tuned, more "conventionally" inserted alternative to the ER2XR, the ER2XR as the "they just do everything so well and are basically flawless" middle ground, and the O400 as IEMs with the most sub-bass-only bass boost implementations that I have heard (even less fundamental range warmth than the ER2XR and even my ES3), with an overall slightly milder, less strong boost in the lowest frequencies than the ER2XR). Based on that, it seems like the EVO could be really interesting for me for recreational listening as well, and I'm looking forward to seeing frequency response measurements of them as soon as anyone has measured them.