The Ethernet cables, Switches and Network related sound thread. Share your listening experience only.
Jan 29, 2020 at 4:38 PM Post #31 of 2,119
@gregorio you did your homework! And good description.
If Cables matter for ethernet than my images should get sharper when i copy them from my workstation to my NAS with a CAT7 cable... sounds stupid.. it is..because i transmit digital data over the cable. "More Cat" is less packet loss on the way... so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Jan 29, 2020 at 5:10 PM Post #32 of 2,119
Im sure you can out science me any day, but have you actually listened to a variety of “audiophile” network cable in a decent highly resolving system. If you have and you can’t hear a difference fair enough. I have tried half a dozen cable I’ve also made a few too. I can hear clear differences between the cables when used in my main system, but less so in my office set up. And my favourite sounding cable is not the most expensive one I’ve tried either. I’m not interested in persuading you if you decided on based on scientific principle without listening to the cables. I didn’t used to believe usb cables could effect SQ until I heard it for myself.
 
Jan 29, 2020 at 5:28 PM Post #33 of 2,119
It won't help if you buy even the best most overpriced ethernet cables money can buy. Because your switches and routers add latency, jitter, and cosmic rays to the signals. If you have cats it can only be worse.
 
Jan 29, 2020 at 5:49 PM Post #34 of 2,119
It won't help if you buy even the best most overpriced ethernet cables money can buy. Because your switches and routers add latency, jitter, and cosmic rays to the signals. If you have cats it can only be worse.

I refer you to my last question, have you listened to the cables you dismiss?
 
Jan 29, 2020 at 6:06 PM Post #35 of 2,119
Wait... Are you seeing benefits from using highend cables connecting your NAS to your PC? I've never seen a benefit from using nice cables vs cheap ones. I do however buy quality qualified cables and build my own. Wireless vs Wired I cannot detect a difference UNLESS there is a bandwidth issue causing stutters. I mean, if you copy the file from your NAS to your PC it's prettymuch the same as streaming it from your NAS. If you are saying that you experience increased SQ from a streaming service by using an audiophile ethernet cable then I say, good sir, wow :D
 
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Jan 30, 2020 at 2:25 AM Post #36 of 2,119
I refer you to my last question, have you listened to the cables you dismiss?

No, I just know that on my lan which consists of a bunch of commercial servers with gigabit switches I get zero dropped packets and zero errors. I pay about 4 euro for a cable and if it's good enough to run tens of gigabytes of data every day without any loss then there is nothing to be gained (and a lot to be lost) by throwing money away on glittery cables. Pure snake oil!
 
Jan 30, 2020 at 2:35 AM Post #37 of 2,119
No, I just know that on my lan which consists of a bunch of commercial servers with gigabit switches I get zero dropped packets and zero errors. I pay about 4 euro for a cable and if it's good enough to run tens of gigabytes of data every day without any loss then there is nothing to be gained (and a lot to be lost) by throwing money away on glittery cables. Pure snake oil!

We need to move on from the fixation on the transport layer - we all agree ethernet is zero loss data stream - the data stream is a red herring. The difference in sound quality of cables/switches is related to conducted noise pollution fed into the receiving audio kit - it's the same effect seen in all audio kit to some degree and should come as no surprise to anybody interested in sound quality. The better switches (SOtM/AQVox/JCat), cables and LAN isolators do a substantially better job of rejecting such noise to the benefit of downstream sound quality.
 
Jan 30, 2020 at 3:08 AM Post #38 of 2,119
I’m using the “expensive” in this set up

Based purely on listening tests, the cable running the last metre from switch to streamer has the most noticeable effect on SQ. The gains aren’t as significant as those from other types of cabling, mains, interconnects and usb, but it’s enough to warrant the expense and I’m not talking stratospheric. The cables I’ve made using viablue spc solid core copper with telegartner rj45s
No, I just know that on my lan which consists of a bunch of commercial servers with gigabit switches I get zero dropped packets and zero errors. I pay about 4 euro for a cable and if it's good enough to run tens of gigabytes of data every day without any loss then there is nothing to be gained (and a lot to be lost) by throwing money away on glittery cables. Pure snake oil!

. I have tried your way and a different way, based on listening tests I can hear a benefit in the later which I am happy to pay for. If you’re not willing to try (and any good snake oil salesmen will let you home demo without having to buy), and only wish to speak from a theoretical position rather than one of experience, then there’s probably not a huge amount to gained for us to continue this discussion, we should just carry on along our slightly different audiophile paths. I’m happy with my choices and I’m pleased that you are too.:)
 
Jan 30, 2020 at 4:56 AM Post #39 of 2,119
[1] Im sure you can out science me any day, but
[2] have you actually listened to a variety of “audiophile” network cable in a decent highly resolving system. If you have and you can’t hear a difference fair enough. I have tried half a dozen cable I’ve also made a few too. I can hear clear differences between the cables when used in my main system, but less so in my office set up.

1. What else is there? Apart from the science and of course the fact that it's demonstrated in practice trillions of times a second all over the planet and has been for years, what else do you think is going on in an ethernet cable, some sort of magic?

2. Ah yes, the old audiophile cry: Dismissing some of the most proven and demonstrated science, without which the modern digital age would not exist, in favour of the sense of hearing, the fooling of which is not just a fundamental fact known for more than 5 centuries but an actual requisite. If our hearing couldn't be fooled, then music (and nearly all commercial audio) could not exist! .... It's easy enough to verify that the ones and zeros coming out of an ethernet network are identical to the ones and zeros that went in, indeed, this verification is effectively built into the ethernet protocol to start with and if the ones and zeros are identical, by definition there is no difference because digital data only has these two states. So if a difference is heard, it MUST be a function of our hearing/perception and cannot be a function of the ethernet cable (or other ethernet equipment)!

Furthermore, there's a second audiophile fallacy in your statement: "in a decent highly resolving system", which is fallacious for two reasons: Firstly, there is no system that can fully resolve even 16bit digital audio, let alone 24bit, including our hearing! And secondly, it's fairly certain that whatever system you have, it's not as resolving/accurate as the systems that I'm used to.

[1] We need to move on from the fixation on the transport layer - we all agree ethernet is zero loss data stream - the data stream is a red herring.
[2] The difference in sound quality of cables/switches is related to conducted noise pollution fed into the receiving audio kit -
[2a] it's the same effect seen in all audio kit to some degree and
[2b] should come as no surprise to anybody interested in sound quality.
[2c] The better switches (SOtM/AQVox/JCat), cables and LAN isolators do a substantially better job of rejecting such noise to the benefit of downstream sound quality.
1. Good you're getting there, you just need to take the next step! :) ....

2. Even disregarding RF and any other electromagnetic interference, there must be noise in every electrical circuit: Johnson/Nyquist Noise (Thermal Noise) is an unavoidable scientific fact that's been calculable for nearly a century. The fact you're ignoring is that this is why digital data and digital audio (and the telegraph/Morse code before it) were invented in the first place! Like Morse Code, digital audio only has two states, zero and one (as opposed to dot and dash), there is no additional state for noise. Either the noise is great enough that the receiving telegraph operator cannot differentiate a dot from a dash or the noise is not that great and is effectively eliminated. The same with ethernet, except that ethernet has sophisticated error detection and correction. What comes out of an ethernet network again has just two states with no noise, because as with the binary telegraph system there is no state for noise and it has therefore been eliminated. So, there CANNOT be a difference in sound quality between ethernet cables/switchers, either the receiving equipment is functioning and reconstituting the zeros and ones without noise or it is not functioning! Of course though, once the receiving equipment has reconstituted those zeros and ones (without noise) we've got to get that data from the ethernet receiver to the DAC chip, which involves another electrical signal/circuit and therefore the addition of at least thermal noise again.
2a. No it's not! The analogue and acoustic components of an audio system are not digital/binary, they do have a state/s for noise, so any noise/interference introduced is NOT eliminated and is in fact cumulative. Which again, is why digital data/binary "bits" were invented in the first place (as proven by Claude Shannon in his "Mathematical Theory of Communication" paper in 1947). If this were not the case, then not only digital audio but digital data in general would not exist, which is why Shannon is often referred to as "the father of the digital age".
2b. It would however come as a complete surprise to Claude Shannon and everyone else who understands the basic principles of digital data/audio. It would also come as a surprise to billions of people to discover that none of their digital devices ever work and don't exist!
2c. Again, no! ALL ethernet receivers either completely eliminate/reject noise or they don't function, it's just zeros and ones or non-functional, there is no other possible state/condition! However, as mentioned above, once those (noiseless) zeros and ones have been reconstituted in the receiver, we're going to need another electrical signal/circuit transfer that data to the DAC chip, which again means the addition of at least thermal noise.

Based purely on listening tests, the cable running the last metre from switch to streamer has the most noticeable effect on SQ.

But it's not "based purely on listening test", you haven't done a purely listening test, you've done a "purely perception of listening test" and as mentioned above, if your perception of listening/hearing could not be fooled then you wouldn't be listening to music in the first place, because you wouldn't be able to perceive music!

G
 
Jan 30, 2020 at 5:21 AM Post #40 of 2,119
2. Even disregarding RF and any other electromagnetic interference, there must be noise in every electrical circuit: Johnson/Nyquist Noise (Thermal Noise) is an unavoidable scientific fact that's been calculable for nearly a century. The fact you're ignoring is that this is why digital data and digital audio (and the telegraph/Morse code before it) were invented in the first place! Like Morse Code, digital audio only has two states, zero and one (as opposed to dot and dash), there is no additional state for noise. Either the noise is great enough that the receiving telegraph operator cannot differentiate a dot from a dash or the noise is not that great and is effectively eliminated. The same with ethernet, except that ethernet has sophisticated error detection and correction. What comes out of an ethernet network again has just two states with no noise, because as with the binary telegraph system there is no state for noise and it has therefore been eliminated. So, there CANNOT be a difference in sound quality between ethernet cables/switchers, either the receiving equipment is functioning and reconstituting the zeros and ones without noise or it is not functioning! Of course though, once the receiving equipment has reconstituted those zeros and ones (without noise) we've got to get that data from the ethernet receiver to the DAC chip, which involves another electrical signal/circuit and therefore the addition of at least thermal noise again.

Next you'll be telling us jitter doesn't exist because your telegraph operator can hear dots/dashes adequately.

I am very much enjoying your (il)logical contortions, but perhaps you could just go and listen to some cables. Then, when you hear a difference, try to hypothesise why...

My 2nd SOtM switch is arriving today and I'm very much looking forward to daisy chaining the two switches. Apparently it does wonders for sound quality :D
 
Jan 30, 2020 at 5:36 AM Post #41 of 2,119
1. What else is there? Apart from the science and of course the fact that it's demonstrated in practice trillions of times a second all over the planet and has been for years, what else do you think is going on in an ethernet cable, some sort of magic?

2. Ah yes, the old audiophile cry: Dismissing some of the most proven and demonstrated science, without which the modern digital age would not exist, in favour of the sense of hearing, the fooling of which is not just a fundamental fact known for more than 5 centuries but an actual requisite. If our hearing couldn't be fooled, then music (and nearly all commercial audio) could not exist! .... It's easy enough to verify that the ones and zeros coming out of an ethernet network are identical to the ones and zeros that went in, indeed, this verification is effectively built into the ethernet protocol to start with and if the ones and zeros are identical, by definition there is no difference because digital data only has these two states. So if a difference is heard, it MUST be a function of our hearing/perception and cannot be a function of the ethernet cable (or other ethernet equipment)!

Furthermore, there's a second audiophile fallacy in your statement: "in a decent highly resolving system", which is fallacious for two reasons: Firstly, there is no system that can fully resolve even 16bit digital audio, let alone 24bit, including our hearing! And secondly, it's fairly certain that whatever system you have, it's not as resolving/accurate as the systems that I'm used to.


1. Good you're getting there, you just need to take the next step! :) ....

Excellent, well good luck with all that and i'll stick to trusting my ears :)

2. Even disregarding RF and any other electromagnetic interference, there must be noise in every electrical circuit: Johnson/Nyquist Noise (Thermal Noise) is an unavoidable scientific fact that's been calculable for nearly a century. The fact you're ignoring is that this is why digital data and digital audio (and the telegraph/Morse code before it) were invented in the first place! Like Morse Code, digital audio only has two states, zero and one (as opposed to dot and dash), there is no additional state for noise. Either the noise is great enough that the receiving telegraph operator cannot differentiate a dot from a dash or the noise is not that great and is effectively eliminated. The same with ethernet, except that ethernet has sophisticated error detection and correction. What comes out of an ethernet network again has just two states with no noise, because as with the binary telegraph system there is no state for noise and it has therefore been eliminated. So, there CANNOT be a difference in sound quality between ethernet cables/switchers, either the receiving equipment is functioning and reconstituting the zeros and ones without noise or it is not functioning! Of course though, once the receiving equipment has reconstituted those zeros and ones (without noise) we've got to get that data from the ethernet receiver to the DAC chip, which involves another electrical signal/circuit and therefore the addition of at least thermal noise again.
2a. No it's not! The analogue and acoustic components of an audio system are not digital/binary, they do have a state/s for noise, so any noise/interference introduced is NOT eliminated and is in fact cumulative. Which again, is why digital data/binary "bits" were invented in the first place (as proven by Claude Shannon in his "Mathematical Theory of Communication" paper in 1947). If this were not the case, then not only digital audio but digital data in general would not exist, which is why Shannon is often referred to as "the father of the digital age".
2b. It would however come as a complete surprise to Claude Shannon and everyone else who understands the basic principles of digital data/audio. It would also come as a surprise to billions of people to discover that none of their digital devices ever work and don't exist!
2c. Again, no! ALL ethernet receivers either completely eliminate/reject noise or they don't function, it's just zeros and ones or non-functional, there is no other possible state/condition! However, as mentioned above, once those (noiseless) zeros and ones have been reconstituted in the receiver, we're going to need another electrical signal/circuit transfer that data to the DAC chip, which again means the addition of at least thermal noise.



But it's not "based purely on listening test", you haven't done a purely listening test, you've done a "purely perception of listening test" and as mentioned above, if your perception of listening/hearing could not be fooled then you wouldn't be listening to music in the first place, because you wouldn't be able to perceive music!

G
 
Jan 30, 2020 at 6:03 AM Post #42 of 2,119
[1] Next you'll be telling us jitter doesn't exist because your telegraph operator can hear dots/dashes adequately.
[2] I am very much enjoying your (il)logical contortions, but
[2a] perhaps you could just go and listen to some cables.
[2b] Then, when you hear a difference, try to hypothesise why...

1. And next you'll be telling us how a pico second worth of jitter made such an enormous difference to the accuracy of received telegraph messages! Of course though, you're just making up nonsense to defend your position, I would not tell you or anyone else that jitter does not exist, it does exist, science states that it exists and confirms it with measurements. What is it that you think I'm trying to tell you doesn't exist? It's obviously not noise because not only did I state that noise exists but that it MUST exist.

2. You're entirely free to consider the proven and massively demonstrated science/facts to be "illogical contortions" but of course that tells us far more about your "logic" than it does about the actual facts!
2a. You think maybe I've never heard an audio signal that's been transmitted through various different cables, even though that's essentially what I do for a living? That's an example of your logic is it?
2b. That's apparently the difference between us. I wouldn't need to "try to hypothesise why", nearly a century and a half of psychoacoustics, many centuries of music composition/performance and the most demonstrated of facts in various other scientific/engineering fields already tell me why! If I jumped off the top of a building and broke every bone in my body, I wouldn't have to "try to hypothesise why" because Newton already proved "why" a long time ago. The only reason I would "try to hypothesise why" is if I illogically didn't believe in gravity or were simply ignorant of the facts/science!

G
 
Jan 30, 2020 at 6:36 AM Post #43 of 2,119
Jan 30, 2020 at 6:59 AM Post #44 of 2,119
We need to move on from the fixation on the transport layer - we all agree ethernet is zero loss data stream - the data stream is a red herring. The difference in sound quality of cables/switches is related to conducted noise pollution fed into the receiving audio kit - it's the same effect seen in all audio kit to some degree and should come as no surprise to anybody interested in sound quality. The better switches (SOtM/AQVox/JCat), cables and LAN isolators do a substantially better job of rejecting such noise to the benefit of downstream sound quality.

There is no noise. Either the packets get by checksumming at each stopping point along the way, or they don't.
 
Jan 30, 2020 at 7:43 AM Post #45 of 2,119
"Of course though, you're just making up nonsense to defend your position"
And we're done.

Shame you didn't feel that way BEFORE you made-up nonsense about I would be (or had) "telling you"!

G
 

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