End Game Headphone - Thought Experiment - Knowledge and Experience Sought
Jan 9, 2019 at 11:33 AM Post #31 of 41
The term wants to evoke an impossible ideal - one that will shift over time with different theories and understandings of how to relate headphones to loudspeakers

Headphones and Loudspeakers can't really be compared and they shouldn't. I agree with most of the other things you said except for your description of the K702, lol. I think the K702 sounds perfectly natural.
 
Jan 9, 2019 at 11:40 AM Post #32 of 41
Headphones and Loudspeakers can't really be compared and they shouldn't. I agree with most of the other things you said except for your description of the K702, lol. I think the K702 sounds perfectly natural.
They will sound different (thus, my point) - but making headphones sound like flat loudspeakers is exactly the claim companies are making when they say "reference", i.e., your original point.
 
Jan 9, 2019 at 11:57 AM Post #33 of 41
They will sound different (thus, my point) - but making headphones sound like flat loudspeakers is exactly the claim companies are making when they say "reference", i.e., your original point.
are you sure about that?
Do they advertise this claim matter-of-factly in bold lettering all over the boxes of their newly designed headphones and we should believe them?
Have you ever considered that this is just a marketing technique, an attempt to sell more headphones?!

There is no rule that states headphones should sound like speakers. No right or wrong way when it comes to getting headphones to sound like speakers..but I do believe that there is a correct tuning for headphones. Neutrality should always be the goal. Neutrality allows for a headphone to sound good with all types of music, no matter what amps you use with it. AKG K702 is the most neutral, natural headphone i've ever heard. I suspect even the HD800 sounds analytical in comparison, however, it's probably the only other open-back headphone I will like more than the K702.
 
Jan 9, 2019 at 12:04 PM Post #34 of 41
Have you ever considered that this is just a marketing technique, an attempt to sell more headphones?!
Yes, I have considered it; in fact, it's the exact point I've been (trying) to make to you: the impossible goal of making headphones sound like studio monitors is the claim they are making when they advertise headphones as "reference". (That, and sometimes that they are "the gold standard" or whatever.)
 
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Jan 9, 2019 at 12:13 PM Post #35 of 41
Neutrality allows for a headphone to sound good with all types of music
Neutrality is an interesting goal for an all-rounder, but the world has a lot of tracks with different inherent colors to them. No matter how a headphone is tuned, it will sound better on some tracks than others, and a different headphone will sound better on some tracks (at least, as far as the tuning is concerned). The way tracks themselves are tuned will always affect which headphones sound best on them - usually headphones used in the process, or popular at the time of the album.
 
Jan 9, 2019 at 12:54 PM Post #36 of 41
Yes, I have considered it; in fact, it's the exact point I've been (trying) to make to you: the impossible goal of making headphones sound like studio monitors is the claim they are making when they advertise headphones as "reference". (That, and sometimes that they are "the gold standard" or whatever.)

Neutrality is an interesting goal for an all-rounder, but the world has a lot of tracks with different inherent colors to them. No matter how a headphone is tuned, it will sound better on some tracks than others, and a different headphone will sound better on some tracks (at least, as far as the tuning is concerned). The way tracks themselves are tuned will always affect which headphones sound best on them - usually headphones used in the process, or popular at the time of the album.

I don't think I can reason with you. Let's just agree to disagree.
 
Jan 9, 2019 at 1:50 PM Post #38 of 41
I can get on board with that. (No hard feelings!) :)

None at all.
You know, I kinda know what i'm talkin' about..I have years of experience with audio equipment, literally hundreds of hours worth of listening to headphones, speakers, studying their strengths and weaknesses, even pulling them apart to study the drivers from a technical/scientific standpoint.
I also know the marketing tricks that companies use to promote their products. I am not fooled by them. If a company makes a claim about a product, that does not make it special.
 
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Jan 9, 2019 at 3:48 PM Post #40 of 41
Neutrality is an interesting goal for an all-rounder, but the world has a lot of tracks with different inherent colors to them. No matter how a headphone is tuned, it will sound better on some tracks than others, and a different headphone will sound better on some tracks (at least, as far as the tuning is concerned). The way tracks themselves are tuned will always affect which headphones sound best on them - usually headphones used in the process, or popular at the time of the album.

You make a lot of good points here. First of all, what is considered as reference does change a bit with shifting time and technology. In many of the 50s recordings, the saxophones and trombones sound harsh on the HD800, but they don't on the HD650 with rolled off treble. One might think, the HD800's treble peak is the problem, but the same instruments on well recorded modern albums sound pleasant on HD800. I think, whatever they used in the 50s to mix those albums, what was considered the reference at that time had rolled off treble. Even if we agree that a flat frequency response curve could serve as a universal objective tuning for headphones (after correcting for head, torso and outer ear related changes), we can't possibly apply a universal tuning to serve all of us, because our ear shapes and body morphologies are different. So is our hearing, based on what we are exposed to, and aging. Then there is the question of psychoacoustics. A flat response may not be the best or even appealing based on how sound is interpreted in the brain. For example, if we see the frequency response curve of the closed back HD820, it looks rugged and far from flat. Apparently, psychoacoustics were considered while tuning it. So, I agree there is probably not a universal tuning for audio devices. My own hearing preference changes from day to day. Some albums sound just fine one day, and sounds harsh the other day. It depends on level of exhaustion and other psychological factors I may not be fully aware of.

You mentioned about comparison with real world sounds to judge whether a headphone sounds natural or not, like a violin for instance. I like that point. I just want to add that there could be variations even there. A professional violinist may hear the violin sound differently than an ordinary person because of being exposed to the treble for a long time. There is even the term 'violinist's ear'. So this again brings me back to your original point. Depending on who is mixing the album (and there are many talented engineers and mixers whose auditory judgement is probably leagues ahead of mine) and what equipment is being used, there will be subtle variations in the sound characteristics of albums and certain headphones may synnergize with certain albums better than others. I agree, with modern technology, the variations due to equipment are much less prominent now than was in the past, but it still leaves open the possibility of subjective listening and preferences being a factor in deciding the sound from individual albums.
 
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Jan 9, 2019 at 4:05 PM Post #41 of 41
I would like to point out one more thing. Multi thousand pound/dollar amplifiers all have one thing in common - they sound uncolored.
There is no hint of coloration to their sound..all that's left is the recording. Isn't this a BIG clue as to how anything with a transducer should sound? take the hint!

(btw i'm talking about REAL amps such as power amps/integrated amps/pre-amps made by the big companies. Tube amps are a niche product with a deliberate colored sound.)
 
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