[BananaOoyoo]

Anemic bass? The Zeus? Well, to each their own. But as I keep saying, we all listen differently to different types of music and like different kinds of sound signature. I wouldn't call the Zeus anemic at the bottom end because for me, with most (90%) of what I listen to the bass sounds perfect. There are better ways to describe iems (or sources). I would describe the Zeus as incredibly well balanced, nearly reference in all areas, having great detail with excellent upper end extension, wonderful forward mids and bass that is more transparent than slamming. If I wanted an iem that delivered a slamming, solid bass the Zeus would not be for me. We need to find words that appropriately describe what we hear without making value judgements like "anemic." Someone reading your post might decide that the Zeus is crap because it has bass that is not to your taste, never try it, and miss out.

I don’t think anemic is a particularly bad term to describe BA bass in general. From what I remember, the lower end on the Zeus seemed accurate but lacking that punch/rumble you get with dynamic drivers. It’s not a criticism of the Zeus specifically, which I think is a fantastic IEM, but rather a description of how the type of driver presents that frequency range.

I’m not the person you replied to, but I personally wish that the two BA’s in the Wraith were replaced by a W9 (or two, like in the Legend X) precisely because I’m not looking for another neutral/neutral-bright sound in my (future) TOTL hybrid. Others may want something completely different, and that’s perfectly fine.

 

[pinkzeppelincult]

Anemic bass? The Zeus? Well, to each their own. But as I keep saying, we all listen differently to different types of music and like different kinds of sound signature. I wouldn't call the Zeus anemic at the bottom end because for me, with most (90%) of what I listen to the bass sounds perfect. There are better ways to describe iems (or sources). I would describe the Zeus as incredibly well balanced, nearly reference in all areas, having great detail with excellent upper end extension, wonderful forward mids and bass that is more transparent than slamming. If I wanted an iem that delivered a slamming, solid bass the Zeus would not be for me. We need to find words that appropriately describe what we hear without making value judgements like "anemic." Someone reading your post might decide that the Zeus is crap because it has bass that is not to your taste, never try it, and miss out.

How is "anemic" any more of a value judgment than "excellent," "wonderful," or "well balanced"? Besides, KuroKitso's point seemed much more that EE didn't take the Zeus's feedback—which consistently criticized the bass quantity—well enough into account when deciding to market the Wraith as a Zeus successor. For what it's worth, I'd say you're both right. The Zeus does have a very present and capable mid-bass but next to no sub-bass; in my experience, it's usually the latter that anemic refers to.

 

[Deezel177]

My first impressions of DDs have always been that they tend to "overpower" the mids and high, but are amazing once you past that phase, though the LX is still being the one exception. For me at least the option seems to be go the Valk with fewer W9s, so I hope this isn't a LX situation all over again, where the W9 overshines everything.

I think a lot of us expected the Wraith to be the Tribrid and not the Valk to be honest. Before even the price tag was annouced "2 BA bass" on the Wraith more or less took it out of consideration for me. Especially since it's suppose to be a Zeus sucessor. You really can't call it a sucessor and still retain that anemic bass. I'd take less ESTs and BAs for a W9 or 2.

There's lots of assuming being made here without any actual listening, despite what early impressions and reviews have already said.

 

[KuroKitsu]

We need to find words that appropriately describe what we hear without making value judgements like "anemic." Someone reading your post might decide that the Zeus is crap because it has bass that is not to your taste, never try it, and miss out.

I think it goes without saying in this hobby that if you base decisions purely on reviews, you're gonna miss out. Everything is 100% subjective and what matters is what your ears hear.

Now that said, I personally found the Zeus lacking in a particular area, thats all it is. It doesnt mean anything beyond that. I get yall Zeus fanatics love it, but stop reacting like I murdered your family.

I don’t think anemic is a particularly bad term to describe BA bass in general. From what I remember, the lower end on the Zeus seemed accurate but lacking that punch/rumble you get with dynamic drivers. It’s not a criticism of the Zeus specifically, which I think is a fantastic IEM, but rather a description of how the type of driver presents that frequency range.

I’m not the person you replied to, but I personally wish that the two BA’s in the Wraith were replaced by a W9 (or two, like in the Legend X) precisely because I’m not looking for another neutral/neutral-bright sound in my (future) TOTL hybrid. Others may want something completely different, and that’s perfectly fine.

Exactly! BA bass really does lack in he rumble/punch departnent no ifs ands or buts. As for neutral bright TOTLs, I might pick up a Zeus in the future but for now its not the direction Im going in.

How is "anemic" any more of a value judgment than "excellent," "wonderful," or "well balanced"? Besides, KuroKitso's point seemed much more that EE didn't take the Zeus's feedback—which consistently criticized the bass quantity—well enough into account when deciding to market the Wraith as a Zeus successor. For what it's worth, I'd say you're both right. The Zeus does have a very present and capable mid-bass but next to no sub-bass; in my experience, it's usually the latter that anemic refers to.

Yup, they definitely used feedback from Zeus to tune the Phantom which was more of a spiritual sucessor. So I am a tad bit dissapointed in how Wraith *seems* to have turned out. Mid bass will be great, but "please sir can I have some more sub-bass"

 

[KuroKitsu]

There's lots of assuming being made here without any actual listening, despite what early impressions and reviews have already said.

I'm in the dark till the demos arrive so listening aint happening, must be nice having early access perks Daniel

Ive learned not to put a lot of stock in reviews until I've heard it myself and can judge. Till then? Speculation awayyyy

 

[Deezel177]

I'm in the dark till the demos arrive so listening aint happening, must be nice having early access perks Daniel

Ive learned not to put a lot of stock in reviews until I've heard it myself and can judge. Till then? Speculation awayyyy

Well, that depends on whether or not you enjoy constantly chasing standards and deadlines, but that's besides the point. Speculation is healthy and it certainly drives a conversation forward, but it's also important to acknowledge how big of a role preconceived notions can play when you do get to hear the real thing. Whether consciously or subconsciously, it can influence, which is where the healthy part begins to wane. As we all know, ideas are like seeds we grow in each other, and no one wants to cut down their favourite tree.

 

[KuroKitsu]

Well, that depends on whether or not you enjoy constantly chasing standards and deadlines, but that's besides the point. Speculation is healthy and it certainly drives a conversation forward, but it's also important to acknowledge how big of a role preconceived notions can play when you do get to hear the real thing. Whether consciously or subconsciously, it can influence, which is where the healthy part begins to wane. As we all know, ideas are like seeds we grow in each other, and no one wants to cut down their favourite tree.

As a programmer constantly chasing standard and deadlines are what I call Monday

Any how, the influence of psychological state on music perception eh? We're going deep today. I admit that preconceived notions do have a big effect, hence why I usually do multiple auditions to get beyond that. I also admit that I usually enjoy the surprise at watching those notions be shattered so each their own. Or in terms of trees: ALL THE TREES

 

[Deezel177]

As a programmer constantly chasing standard and deadlines are what I call Monday

Any how, the influence of psychological state on music perception eh? We're going deep today. I admit that preconceived notions do have a big effect, hence why I usually do multiple auditions to get beyond that. I also admit that I usually enjoy the surprise at watching those notions be shattered so each their own. Or in terms of trees: ALL THE TREES

Sure, but not everyone can feel that way. You'll be surprised at the amount of times I've seen people respond to pure speculation (without any listening) with, "Thanks for your review!" or "Thanks for the impressions!" Other times, it's an agreement to the speculation, followed by, "Yeah, I don't think I'm even gonna bother hearing it." Obviously, this is infinitely their fault more so than it is yours or anyone who posts speculation. But, I do feel it's important to remind ourselves how weak speculation can be in the face of actual listening. whether by voicing whatever preconceptions you may have in a less definitive way, or by voicing nothing at all. Though, I feel the same way in that I'd happily concede if you were to hear the Wraith in real-life and find its bass as you had assumed. I just wished there was a better way to voice that without the risks I mentioned earlier.

 

[pinkzeppelincult]

I just spent nearly 12 hours auditioning the Phantom with the EA Leonidas II, Thor II 8-Wire, Eros II 8-Wire, and Cleopatra. Some quick 'n' dirty impressions as compared to the Ares II 8-Wire:

- The Leonidas II is a weird pairing. Its fundamentals—separation, imaging, detail retrieval, soundstage, general coherence—are ridiculously good, and the Phantom is able to take full advantage. However, the Leonidas also quashes the Phantom's defining bass. Sub-bass is simply and quite literally gone at reasonable volumes, and mid-bass is tempered so much that it's no longer the most prominent frequency. This does increase the precision and speed of the bass, but it comes at the heavy cost of texture and timbre, which are also reduced to a lesser degree across the signature. The reduced bass does help the upper mids and treble shine through, and veils aplenty are lifted. Male and female vocals are more balanced than normal: the former lose significant power and are placed further back but retain most of their emotion. I wasn't able to find a genre for which this pairing was ideal, but it does exemplify the Phantom's technical potential.

- The Thor II 8-Wire, on the other hand, adds a healthy amount of slam to the Phantom's bass. It's still nothing like a DD, but it's a palpable increase in bass volume—both quantity and stage presence. Treble receives a similar treatment. This pairing is aggressive; not harsh or particularly bitey, but loud and in your face, no matter the decibels. Put simply, the Phantom is transformed from an n-signature to a V-signature, without the use of subtraction. Fundamentals are nearly on par with the Leonidas, but the stage is much smaller, and the very finest details are buried beneath the primary lines. The midrange—vocals and instruments alike—take a step back behind the mighty bass and treble, but no more than that: the presentation remains perfectly coherent. This pairing isn't as good for relaxed listening as a stock Phantom, but if you're looking for something a bit more gutsy and powerful without just handing the reins to the bass and/or snare drum, it should be on your audition list.

- The Eros II 8-Wire seems to be Wyville's pet pairing with the Phantom, and I can see why: it does an amazing job of balancing and clarifying the notoriously dark monitor. Sub-bass gets a very slight boost, mid-bass through lower mids are pulled back a bit, upper mids are pushed forward, and the treble gets a dash of shimmer, all while retaining the Phantom's lovely low-end timbre and enriching the high end so it doesn't sound so pinched and nasal. At the end of the day I'd call it solidly reference-natural. Extension on both ends is improved slightly, and fundamentals get a significant boost, but not like what you get with the Leonidas, with the exception of the soundstage, which I think is even better here. The Eros also supplies copious air, which completely alters the Phantom's presentation, displacing the fog you knew was there and plenty more you weren't even aware of. However, there's a reason the Phantom wasn't tuned like this to begin with, and it quickly becomes apparent: this pairing is not much fun. It's great for analytical listening or for classical music because it's so transparent, but a transparent painting wouldn't be much good, and for most other genres, neither is a transparent audio setup. I, at least, want one color or another when I'm listening to music for enjoyment, whether that be slamming bass or forward vocals or sparkly treble or something in between or completely opposite. But whatever the song demands, Eros just stays completely clear. Maybe for you, that's perfect. Which would be neat because it's also the cheapest and coolest-looking cable on this list.

- Finally, the Cleopatra. This was my favorite pairing of these four. It mostly adds rumble and slam to the (sub-)bass and richness to the upper mids, opening many doors for the Phantom. A more textured and impactful bass, with greater balance between sub- and mid-bass, does the Phantom all kinds of favors with EDM, rap, rock, grunge, classical, pop, and electronic genres, while a smoother response on the way up gives female vocalists (and trumpets, flutes, etc.) a turn in the spotlight, both pushing them forward and correcting their tone. And that's about all the Cleopatra does, besides the standard EA fundamental improvement, once again just a hair behind the Leonidas. Lower mids are still strong and forward, just relatively a little less so than before. Unfortunately, the Phantom can't really afford the Cleopatra's tweaks, because while all the praise above is perfectly true, it ignores the fact that the Phantom becomes darker than ever as a result. You don't get that sense of a lifting veil or a clearing fog; instead, both are thickened. Rumblier bass is slower bass; smoother treble is dimmer treble. This doesn't make the Phantom unlistenable by any stretch, but it does nag. I wonder if the Cleopatra Octa might fix this? I'll likely be trying it in a week or so, so stay tuned. Or, if you think you might not mind an even darker tone, or if you have a very bright source, audition a Cleopatra ASAP.

In the end, I stuck with my Ares II 8-Wire for now. The Cleopatra was tempting, but the improvement was too marginal relative to the downside for me to justify spending $700. Here's hoping the 8-Wire version leaves the tuning alone while airing out the presentation a bit!

 

[fuhransahis]

While we're on the subject(s), I think the terms "reference" or "neutral" are used far too often without enough context as to what reference or neutral means to that particular listener, as that can vary wildly as well.

So for example defending an IEM that might be bass-light by saying that it is because that IEM has a reference-like or neutral tuning would be incorrect for what my definition of reference is (and my definition may be the same as many others who are calling that IEM bass-light or too treble-heavy). To me a reference tuning, as simple and non-technical as this version may be and as difficult to pull off in reality (if possible at all actually) is one that represents all frequencies in balance without consistently over-emphasizing or neglecting any other frequencies. And similarly, the monitor or headphone would react accordingly to the music it is fed (the rest of the chain's quality being equal). So, if a track does in fact have slamming bass, that monitor should be able to reproduce that, as slamming crazy bass is what that track needs to be represented accurately (as far as a consensus can be made as that, can't say "like the artist intended" as that's another term I can't stand since you don't truly know how the artist actually intended it to sound the far vast majority of time unless you heard about or read it from the actual artist or similar source and so on. But I digress...). Similarly other tracks may indeed be bass light and brighter and the monitor should reflect that as well.

Essentially to me a reference monitor or headphone is a true chameleon to the music it os fed and morphs accordingly. Some may come close to that ideal but I don't think the tech is out there yet to make what I consider to be a 100% reference monitor.

To close the rant (long train ride) in the end it's helpful to avoid defending our preferred monitors' tuning with blanket statements like "it's a reference monitor, that's why" and perhaps give more context as to why we think that particular area may be more truly represented to you than it is for another. Gladly I think I have seen more of that happening too.

To tie it back... in my opinion and listening experience, I can't call the Zeus neutral but rather a brighter, detailed, spacious monitor with a beautiful midrange, but the lack of bass quantity and extension prevent it from being versatile enough to be truly reference as it can't replicate the quantity and extension that many tracks do indeed call for, and it therefore colors those too differently than what I've experienced and know to be true for them. IMO, YMMV, TTYL GTG

 

[KuroKitsu]

Sure, but not everyone can feel that way. You'll be surprised at the amount of times I've seen people respond to pure speculation (without any listening) with, "Thanks for your review!" or "Thanks for the impressions!" Other times, it's an agreement to the speculation, followed by, "Yeah, I don't think I'm even gonna bother hearing it." Obviously, this is infinitely their fault more so than it is yours or anyone who posts speculation. But, I do feel it's important to remind ourselves how weak speculation can be in the face of actual listening. whether by voicing whatever preconceptions you may have in a less definitive way, or by voicing nothing at all. Though, I feel the same way in that I'd happily concede if you were to hear the Wraith in real-life and find its bass as you had assumed. I just wished there was a better way to voice that without the risks I mentioned earlier.

For sure it would make life much easier if there was some concrete universal way to describe auditory perception (Also much harder on our wallets ).

I think we found the one thing that you can't use the phrase "It's not rocket science" for.

Anyhow back to all things Empire because thread

 

[forbiddenbeat]

In the end, I stuck with my Ares II 8-Wire for now. The Cleopatra was tempting, but the improvement was too marginal relative to the downside for me to justify spending $700. Here's hoping the 8-Wire version leaves the tuning alone while airing out the presentation a bit!

Great writeup, thanks for sharing your impressions! If you get the chance, try the Phantoms with the Janus D. I've only compared to the stock Ares II 4-wire, but immediately fell in love with it (and bought it). It toned down the thickness just a tad, improved sub-bass a tad, and widened the soundstage noticeably, but otherwise didn't mess with things too much.

 

[Wyville]

I just spent nearly 12 hours auditioning the Phantom with the EA Leonidas II, Thor II 8-Wire, Eros II 8-Wire, and Cleopatra. Some quick 'n' dirty impressions as compared to the Ares II 8-Wire:

- The Leonidas II is a weird pairing. Its fundamentals—separation, imaging, detail retrieval, soundstage, general coherence—are ridiculously good, and the Phantom is able to take full advantage. However, the Leonidas also quashes the Phantom's defining bass. Sub-bass is simply and quite literally gone at reasonable volumes, and mid-bass is tempered so much that it's no longer the most prominent frequency. This does increase the precision and speed of the bass, but it comes at the heavy cost of texture and timbre, which are also reduced to a lesser degree across the signature. The reduced bass does help the upper mids and treble shine through, and veils aplenty are lifted. Male and female vocals are more balanced than normal: the former lose significant power and are placed further back but retain most of their emotion. I wasn't able to find a genre for which this pairing was ideal, but it does exemplify the Phantom's technical potential.

- The Thor II 8-Wire, on the other hand, adds a healthy amount of slam to the Phantom's bass. It's still nothing like a DD, but it's a palpable increase in bass volume—both quantity and stage presence. Treble receives a similar treatment. This pairing is aggressive; not harsh or particularly bitey, but loud and in your face, no matter the decibels. Put simply, the Phantom is transformed from an n-signature to a V-signature, without the use of subtraction. Fundamentals are nearly on par with the Leonidas, but the stage is much smaller, and the very finest details are buried beneath the primary lines. The midrange—vocals and instruments alike—take a step back behind the mighty bass and treble, but no more than that: the presentation remains perfectly coherent. This pairing isn't as good for relaxed listening as a stock Phantom, but if you're looking for something a bit more gutsy and powerful without just handing the reins to the bass and/or snare drum, it should be on your audition list.

- The Eros II 8-Wire seems to be Wyville's pet pairing with the Phantom, and I can see why: it does an amazing job of balancing and clarifying the notoriously dark monitor. Sub-bass gets a very slight boost, mid-bass through lower mids are pulled back a bit, upper mids are pushed forward, and the treble gets a dash of shimmer, all while retaining the Phantom's lovely low-end timbre and enriching the high end so it doesn't sound so pinched and nasal. At the end of the day I'd call it solidly reference-natural. Extension on both ends is improved slightly, and fundamentals get a significant boost, but not like what you get with the Leonidas, with the exception of the soundstage, which I think is even better here. The Eros also supplies copious air, which completely alters the Phantom's presentation, displacing the fog you knew was there and plenty more you weren't even aware of. However, there's a reason the Phantom wasn't tuned like this to begin with, and it quickly becomes apparent: this pairing is not much fun. It's great for analytical listening or for classical music because it's so transparent, but a transparent painting wouldn't be much good, and for most other genres, neither is a transparent audio setup. I, at least, want one color or another when I'm listening to music for enjoyment, whether that be slamming bass or forward vocals or sparkly treble or something in between or completely opposite. But whatever the song demands, Eros just stays completely clear. Maybe for you, that's perfect. Which would be neat because it's also the cheapest and coolest-looking cable on this list.

- Finally, the Cleopatra. This was my favorite pairing of these four. It mostly adds rumble and slam to the (sub-)bass and richness to the upper mids, opening many doors for the Phantom. A more textured and impactful bass, with greater balance between sub- and mid-bass, does the Phantom all kinds of favors with EDM, rap, rock, grunge, classical, pop, and electronic genres, while a smoother response on the way up gives female vocalists (and trumpets, flutes, etc.) a turn in the spotlight, both pushing them forward and correcting their tone. And that's about all the Cleopatra does, besides the standard EA fundamental improvement, once again just a hair behind the Leonidas. Lower mids are still strong and forward, just relatively a little less so than before. Unfortunately, the Phantom can't really afford the Cleopatra's tweaks, because while all the praise above is perfectly true, it ignores the fact that the Phantom becomes darker than ever as a result. You don't get that sense of a lifting veil or a clearing fog; instead, both are thickened. Rumblier bass is slower bass; smoother treble is dimmer treble. This doesn't make the Phantom unlistenable by any stretch, but it does nag. I wonder if the Cleopatra Octa might fix this? I'll likely be trying it in a week or so, so stay tuned. Or, if you think you might not mind an even darker tone, or if you have a very bright source, audition a Cleopatra ASAP.

In the end, I stuck with my Ares II 8-Wire for now. The Cleopatra was tempting, but the improvement was too marginal relative to the downside for me to justify spending $700. Here's hoping the 8-Wire version leaves the tuning alone while airing out the presentation a bit!

Great impressions! Must have been a lot of fun to do. I do indeed love the Eros II 8W with my Phantom (listening to it as I write this). Loved Leonidas II as well, but I gave that one away in a charity raffle, so that is the reason I mention the pairing less. I simply don't have it anymore.

If you get the opportunity, you might want to check out the PlusSound Tri-Copper. I have the X6 (6-wire) version and would describe it as more fun (agree with Eros II being a bit less fun) with similarities to the Ares II, but at a higher technical level with better clarity, detail retrieval and resolution, although a bit less emphasis on the mids/vocals. I have been meaning to switch back to it at some point, but it's currently paired with the Trio and I keep ending up listening to my Phantom with Eros II anyway.

 

[olddude]

My only point was to say that the words we choose affect how people interpret what we write. To me, anemic is a pejorative. If any of you read the Wraith review a page before, the issue/non-issue of the Zeus' bass (and the Wraith's) was covered with many descriptive words that enabled the reader to better understand how the reviewer felt and what he heard. I could use many words (I have, in fact) to describe the Zeus. In one comment, I mentioned that there is not a lot of sub-bass. That is a far cry from anemic. I also said the music I listen to doesn't have much sub-bass, so for me it's a non-issue. Some of you listen to music that has lots of sub-bass, and so you want an iem that delivers in that area. That's fine, although I could describe such iems as painful, boomy, bloated, or turgid (for example that's what I heard when I tried the Legend X). Those words help no one understand what I'm trying to describe. If I used those words, some of you, who clearly enjoy the Legend X, might have hesitated in buying it.

As to the question of reference, I still have my UERM, which, while not completely "reference" is close enough that mixing and mastering engineers use it at Capitol Records. It just lets them hear what is going on with the tracks they are listening to without coloring them. The Zeus does much the same, though it does bring a bit more color to the party. When I had the Phantom I found that it brought way too much color to the party and changed the nature of the tracks I listened to. Others may and indeed do like what the Phantom does. I found it changed my music too much and sold it.

This is a hobby made up entirely of opinions. Unless you want to go over to the Sound Science area, where they seem to only deal in "facts." All I'm asking is that when giving an opinion make sure that you use words that describe clearly what your opinion is. My post wasn't meant as a personal attack, just as a reminder to all that what we write affects others.

 

[BananaOoyoo]

Personally, I'm more inclined to listen to a review that mentions both the (subjective) strengths and weaknesses of a product rather than one that just gushes over how wonderful it is.

My only point was to say that the words we choose affect how people interpret what we write. To me, anemic is a pejorative. If any of you read the Wraith review a page before, the issue/non-issue of the Zeus' bass (and the Wraith's) was covered with many descriptive words that enabled the reader to better understand how the reviewer felt and what he heard. I could use many words (I have, in fact) to describe the Zeus. In one comment, I mentioned that there is not a lot of sub-bass. That is a far cry from anemic. I also said the music I listen to doesn't have much sub-bass, so for me it's a non-issue. Some of you listen to music that has lots of sub-bass, and so you want an iem that delivers in that area. That's fine, although I could describe such iems as painful, boomy, bloated, or turgid (for example that's what I heard when I tried the Legend X). Those words help no one understand what I'm trying to describe. If I used those words, some of you, who clearly enjoy the Legend X, might have hesitated in buying it.

As to the question of reference, I still have my UERM, which, while not completely "reference" is close enough that mixing and mastering engineers use it at Capitol Records. It just lets them hear what is going on with the tracks they are listening to without coloring them. The Zeus does much the same, though it does bring a bit more color to the party. When I had the Phantom I found that it brought way too much color to the party and changed the nature of the tracks I listened to. Others may and indeed do like what the Phantom does. I found it changed my music too much and sold it.

This is a hobby made up entirely of opinions. Unless you want to go over to the Sound Science area, where they seem to only deal in "facts." All I'm asking is that when giving an opinion make sure that you use words that describe clearly what your opinion is. My post wasn't meant as a personal attack, just as a reminder to all that what we write affects others.

I'd argue that "painful, boomy, bloated, and turgid" are perfectly fine descriptors of the Legend X's bass. (I may or may not agree with that statement.)

I'd also argue that the goal here shouldn't be to get people to spend more money - it should be to help people make intelligent purchasing decisions. If Zeus XR is my preferred sound signature and I came here to see that you also love the XR but found the Legend X bass "boomy", then yes, I might be hesitant on getting the Legend X. And that's a good thing, because the Legend X sure as hell wouldn't be my preferred sound signature.