[Layman1]

To me LX OG has what I would call a reversed J-shaped sound sig. Absolutely agree, the bass is the star of the show, and I do hear its treble to be more forward than mids/vocals that are more veiled and recessed. Also, could be due to me listening at lower volume. To my ears, EVO is still L-shaped but closer to what I would consider W-shaped with an enhanced bass which is still the star of the show, followed by its mids, and then treble. Your EVO wish is actually pretty close, treble is more natural and somewhat less pronounced, and upper mids 2k-4k region is more elevated, scaled up relative to LX OG. The bass is a touch lower in quantity, but more articulate, more layered, and more multi-dimensional in quality.

Say what now? Personally, I always heard the LX as being more of an 'inverted r-shaped signature' (I'm just making stuff up now lol)

 

[CL14715]

Just my 2 cents: We are people, not machines. Basically measurements mean little to nothing when it comes to evaluating gear. You need to listen to it. I heard customers say they will not like an IEM because the graph (of Crinacle in that case) says it's bad/not what I want. In the end they got a demo, tried and liked it nonetheless.

I understand that measurements play a big role in development to give manufacturers a direction and see certain issues. But they do have (like EE) a fix calibrated setup in a special isolated room that is made for that.

I know in the end, even Jack and Dean will take a lot of time listening to the prototypes and ultimately decide with their ears.

Couldn’t agree more. I feel that any time a graph is posted of a new product, it should be accompanied by even a brief synopsis of human perception. Realistically, if you have them in front of you to graph, you can put them in your ears just as easily. There are so many facets that a graph cannot convey that are realized upon actually listening. It’s owed to the manufacturers of these products, especially due to the stigma that graphs alone can have on a consumer.

It’s a lot like @aaf evo not publishing his graph of the Traillii for quite some time. People were buying them based on impressions alone and loving them. Then the graph comes out and some folks are like uhhh that treble suck out though. They weren’t complaining about that yesterday but now that it’s on a graph it’s a problem? Nah.

 

[TomKorn]

Couldn’t agree more. I feel that any time a graph is posted of a new product, it should be accompanied by even a brief synopsis of human perception. Realistically, if you have them in front of you to graph, you can put them in your ears just as easily. There are so many facets that a graph cannot convey that are realized upon actually listening. It’s owed to the manufacturers of these products, especially due to the stigma that graphs alone can have on a consumer.

It’s a lot like @aaf evo not publishing his graph of the Traillii for quite some time. People were buying them based on impressions alone and loving them. Then the graph comes out and some folks are like uhhh that treble suck out though. They weren’t complaining about that yesterday but now that it’s on a graph it’s a problem? Nah.

Exactly. I say stop looking at raw data, at how many drivers etc., at whatever specs. Listen to stuff and decide with your ears/heart whether you like it or not.

Often enough people/reviewers refer to the sound of an IEM as "guilty pleasure". If it pleases you and makes you feel good, why use the term guilty in the first place? Because it's not "neutral" by someones definition or does not match that cursed "Harman target"?

If you enjoy it, ENJOY IT!!!

 

[Leviathant]

Whilst I understand that graphs only go so far to help decipher how you will hear an IEM, couldn’t help but notice the Odin-like upper mid peak. Anyone that’s tried both EVO and Odin care to make a comparison of that region? Would I be right in thinking that the raised bass quantity in EVO helps counter any upper mids (over-)prominence that some may have found off putting in Odin?

 

[FlowLikeWater]

Exactly. I say stop looking at raw data, at how many drivers etc., at whatever specs. Listen to stuff and decide with your ears/heart whether you like it or not.

Often enough people/reviewers refer to the sound of an IEM as "guilty pleasure". If it pleases you and makes you feel good, why use the term guilty in the first place? Because it's not "neutral" by someones definition or does not match that cursed "Harman target"?

If you enjoy it, ENJOY IT!!!

In this case, I agree. Making any assumptions based on the provided EVO graph is not very smart.

From further research, bone conduction measurement systems need a skull simulator (who woulda thought!)
Probably something like this or this: which appear to be used for bone conduction hearing aids.

The GRAS 43AG (used for the EVO graph from Resolve - no fault on his part) is the wrong tool for the job for a bone conduction system, since it only measures air conduction. Since the EVO description clearly states that the BC driver alone affects frequencies from 5-35 kHz, any EVO assumptions made based on this graph are pretty much useless. We can only analyze the air-conduction behavior of the EVO from this, which would be just the Weapon IX+ and BAs.

In general, nothing beats a well-tuned set of ears, but graphs and technical data still have some value when interpreted correctly.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

It’s a lot like @aaf evo not publishing his graph of the Traillii for quite some time. People were buying them based on impressions alone and loving them. Then the graph comes out and some folks are like uhhh that treble suck out though. They weren’t complaining about that yesterday but now that it’s on a graph it’s a problem? Nah.

That's not the history I recall. In my opinion, the Traillii hype train really hurt that IEM. Without frequency response graphs and professional reviews, there were no skeptical voices pushing back on the unfettered over the top glowing remarks of the Traillii. People actually claimed that the Bird is the end game that if you heard it, it would ruin the experience of all other IEMs. That's not true. I made comments about the supply and demand and how IEMs that held their price had real or artificial supply constraints. Someone actually posted that another way to restrict supply is that owners didn't want to sell because it was so good. These are real examples of over the top, unfettered hype. Anyone can review the Traillii thread to verify my claims.

I remember when that graph of the Traillii was published. It was before I bought mine. I saw the lower treble scoop out and I raised an issue with it and the entire community jumped on me like I was a fool for bringing it up. I have since bought the Traillii and I like it. But, that lower treble scoop out has an impact to sound. It blunts the upper harmonics which helps to make it non fatiguing, but it makes it suboptimal for piano music. These are insights you get by analyzing graphs and listening for what they reveal about sound.

The beginning of the end for the Traillii is when @Precogvision posted a rather luke warm review of the bird. Then, many of those owners who spoke so glowingly of the Traillii have since sold or are trying to sell them. There are over 6 Trailliis in the classifieds that haven't sold at well over a $1000 loss. This over the top hype is not good.

I am liking the fact that the EVO has professional reviews coming out. I like that people are looking at the frequency response curves and raising potential concerns about it. I like the fact that Empire Ears used some judicious pricing and instead of making it $5000 or $6000 that they came in at only $3000. Healthy skepticism about an IEM coupled with real impressions from people who actually love it, professional reviews and healthy discussions of the frequency response in relation to other potential purchases will give potential buyers a good understanding of where it should fit into their collection. And, the market will remain orderly. Given this is happening is a good thing and bodes well for the long term viability of the EVO rather than being a one hit wonder where people who want to get out can't without taking a huge loss.

 

[xenithon]

The beginning of the end for the Traillii is when @Precogvision posted a rather luke warm review of the bird. Then, many of those owners who spoke so glowingly of the Traillii have since sold or are trying to sell them. There are over 6 Trailliis in the classifieds that haven't sold at well over a $1000 loss. This over the top hype is not good.

Respectfully, I could not disagree more. The notion that one lukewarm review was the “beginning of the end” comes across as a misplaced search for some form of vindication. As does the view that the lack of professional reviews means people (who bought the bird) couldn’t make up their own minds.

The community is typically interested equally in both music and gear. There was a fair hiatus of big releases until the last few weeks. It’s highly likely (and evidenced by comments throughout several different threads) that people are offloading various IEMs to make way for upcoming TOTL IEMs.

In the same way, fast forward 6-12 months, I expect to see some hardcore “it’s the best in the world” EVO shills to put theirs up for sale to make way for something new. It’s part of the hobby and in no way takes away from how good the gear being moved is.

This is a cyclical pattern we’ve seen time and again. Something is the “the best” for an individual, until it isn’t. And there’s lovers and haters both sides.

 

[CL14715]

That's not the history I recall. In my opinion, the Traillii hype train really hurt that IEM. Without frequency response graphs and professional reviews, there were no skeptical voices pushing back on the unfettered over the top glowing remarks of the Traillii. People actually claimed that the Bird is the end game that if you heard it, it would ruin the experience of all other IEMs. That's not true. I made comments about the supply and demand and how IEMs that held their price had real or artificial supply constraints. Someone actually posted that another way to restrict supply is that owners didn't want to sell because it was so good. These are real examples of over the top, unfettered hype. Anyone can review the Traillii thread to verify my claims.

I remember when that graph of the Traillii was published. It was before I bought mine. I saw the lower treble scoop out and I raised an issue with it and the entire community jumped on me like I was a fool for bringing it up. I have since bought the Traillii and I like it. But, that lower treble scoop out has an impact to sound. It blunts the upper harmonics which helps to make it non fatiguing, but it makes it suboptimal for piano music. These are insights you get by analyzing graphs and listening for what they reveal about sound.

The beginning of the end for the Traillii is when @Precogvision posted a rather luke warm review of the bird. Then, many of those owners who spoke so glowingly of the Traillii have since sold or are trying to sell them. There are over 6 Trailliis in the classifieds that haven't sold at well over a $1000 loss. This over the top hype is not good.

I am liking the fact that the EVO has professional reviews coming out. I like that people are looking at the frequency response curves and raising potential concerns about it. I like the fact that Empire Ears used some judicious pricing and instead of making it $5000 or $6000 that they came in at only $3000. Healthy skepticism about an IEM coupled with real impressions from people who actually love it, professional reviews and healthy discussions of the frequency response in relation to other potential purchases will give potential buyers a good understanding of where it should fit into their collection. And, the market will remain orderly. Given this is happening is a good thing and bodes well for the long term viability of the EVO rather than being a one hit wonder where people who want to get out can't without taking a huge loss.

What you provided was a different problem than I was referring to. I was specifically referring to some individuals who could not hear the lower treble scoop and claimed the tuning was nearly perfect…. Then a graph shows up and it’s, oh that treble scoop is concerning. The very same people were turning against their own ears and pure enjoyment of something they claimed nearly faultless just days before, because of a graph. Granted it was only a few owners and mostly others chiming in who had not heard it themselves, but it’s insanity nonetheless. If you can identify that scoop and correlate it to blunting piano harmonics then that’s great but most people weren’t having that problem in this instance. Healthy skepticism is always welcomed but I say give some more substance than only a graph for others to draw it from. Even adding another graph overlay to compare would be more beneficial than just a single measurement.

You heard the EVO. Unless they made some drastic changes, the treble in no way sounds rolled off to such a degree. It sounded more natural to me, much like a tweeter which typically is precise and not injecting that artificial splash or grain often heard in BA setups.

 

[saltyfr0g]

Where you been man, hope you didn't get any sand in your IEMs, it's a bitch to get out!!! The earliest review units are just arriving, and Moon Audio reportedly has their demo units, but no actual impressions beyond Homicide and Hawaii.

Officially winding down brother. Should be smooth sailing now. No more playing in the sand box unless something kicks off before retirement in two years.

Super pumped about the EVO now. I’ve used mil spec bone conductor technology for a while now and always hoped a flagship audio company like EE would one day exploit that avenue. Glad that time has finally come.

In the mean time, my custom LXs will hold me down just fine. And I know the sand issues all too well so I’ve made sure to keep my LXs tip top.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Fear not. Definitely is not dar

Officially winding down brother. Should be smooth sailing now. No more playing in the sand box unless something kicks off before retirement in two years.

Super pumped about the EVO now. I’ve used mil spec bone conductor technology for a while now and always hoped a flagship audio company like EE would one day exploit that avenue. Glad that time has finally come.

In the mean time, my custom LXs will hold me down just fine. And I know the sand issues all too well so I’ve made sure to keep my LXs tip top.

Bone conduction is the real deal, I can't wait to hear Dean and Jack’s take on the technology! I'll be getting a set for review, then they’ll be going out for your on AudioTiers.

I had some minor surgery Wednesday, so we are a little behind (still trying to put the tin man back together), but Bill and I will be connecting in a couple days and get the EVO (and VE) tour signups posted on the site.

 

[snowy8171]

Shameless plug, but I do have my odins up for sale. Got to make room for the Evos and some other goodies
https://www.head-fi.org/classifieds/empire-ears-odin.10622/

 

[SLC1966]

The differences between the LXSE and LX are small but can be large. I look at Audiograms at work so no interest in looking at frequency graphs during my hobby time. My impressions are from my warped mind.

I have had LXSE for a chunk of time. This is my 5th time having the LX so I am also very familiar with it. There seems to be a slight upper mid bump with the LXSE. What that does to the overall signature is of ridiculous interest to me. This bump tilts up the treble on the LXSE which makes sense. LXSE and LX can have the same Bass sound but depends on the song. If the song has a lot of treble and upper mids then the LX has more bass sound. A big difference I notice is with vocals which makes sense. Male vocals shine on the LX since the "tilt"of the LX is toward the bass. Female vocals shine more on the LXSE due to the upper mid bump. The tilt toward the upper frequencies.

Both are technical wonders to me. It had to be very hard to create such a rich bass sound and not turn the rest of the IEM into a V shaped mess. Which is usually the case IMO with IEMs with a lot of mid bass.

Both personalities of these siblings are a joy. Just in different ways.

Let me respond to my own post about the OG LX and LXSE. I know both IEMs very well but just got my hands on an OG LX on Thursday. I have owned it numerous times since it came out. I am always drawn back to it due to how unique it is. I have been A/B ing them more the last couple days. The term that was missing in my post I am replying to is "apex." Again let me reiterate, I do not look at graphs since there are A LOT of variables that could make a graph invalid and to me what is important is how it sounds in my head.

Again, the apex IMHO of the OG LX is the lower mid range and a tiny bit into the bass. That helps the bass stand out in general more than the LXSE. That makes male voices sound closer than female voices. The lower mids apex makes the upper mids seem further back. Since the treble is so far away from the apex, they are not recessed but actually come across wonderfully smooth to me.

The apex for the LXSE to me is the upper mid range. That creates more overall balance in the IEM. That creates more forward female voices and further back male voices. The treble is more intense on the LXSE versus OG LX. The bass can still shine on the LXSE but it really depends on the music. With the OG LX the bass almost always shines due to the lower mids apex.

This apex is where the "tilt" happens as I mentioned in my original post.

Kudos goes out to how they are both tuned. As I said before, an IEM with a lot of bass has to be super hard to tune without creating a huge V shaped IEM. And to me a V shaped IEM sounds great at first but as the layers are peeled away, very little is left to enjoy.

I will stop for now while the horse is still breathing.

 

[saltyfr0g]

Bone conduction is the real deal, I can't wait to hear Dean and Jack’s take on the technology! I'll be getting a set for review, then they’ll be going out for your on AudioTiers.

I had some minor surgery Wednesday, so we are a little behind (still trying to put the tin man back together), but Bill and I will be connecting in a couple days and get the EVO (and VE) tour signups posted on the site.

You know I’ll be all over those EVOs!! Can’t wait!!

 

[metaljem77]

Let me respond to my own post about the OG LX and LXSE. I know both IEMs very well but just got my hands on an OG LX on Thursday. I have owned it numerous times since it came out. I am always drawn back to it due to how unique it is. I have been A/B ing them more the last couple days. The term that was missing in my post I am replying to is "apex." Again let me reiterate, I do not look at graphs since there are A LOT of variables that could make a graph invalid and to me what is important is how it sounds in my head.

Again, the apex IMHO of the OG LX is the lower mid range and a tiny bit into the bass. That helps the bass stand out in general more than the LXSE. That makes male voices sound closer than female voices. The lower mids apex makes the upper mids seem further back. Since the treble is so far away from the apex, they are not recessed but actually come across wonderfully smooth to me.

The apex for the LXSE to me is the upper mid range. That creates more overall balance in the IEM. That creates more forward female voices and further back male voices. The treble is more intense on the LXSE versus OG LX. The bass can still shine on the LXSE but it really depends on the music. With the OG LX the bass almost always shines due to the lower mids apex.

This apex is where the "tilt" happens as I mentioned in my original post.

Kudos goes out to how they are both tuned. As I said before, an IEM with a lot of bass has to be super hard to tune without creating a huge V shaped IEM. And to me a V shaped IEM sounds great at first but as the layers are peeled away, very little is left to enjoy.

I will stop for now while the horse is still breathing.

I can’t explain the technical aspects and don’t intend to, but I agree with you. And personally, I prefer the tuning of LX SE to Thummim (take it how you will, I’m sure the comparison raises eyebrows ) - Thummim had moments which got me going “hmm too bright” but LX SE’s sound signature feels more comfortable to my ears.
As for the previous posts on Traillii, I may be at the other spectrum of plebeian who doesn’t know and care enough for graphs. But my purchase of Traillii is a learning lesson. I like it, but I think I wouldn’t pay so much for an IEM anymore after this. I’d wait for pre-loved ones if an IEM’s price is in that region. That was just one crazy wallet-burning moment that I’d have to laugh about (Joker laugh*)

 

[CL14715]

I can’t explain the technical aspects and don’t intend to, but I agree with you. And personally, I prefer the tuning of LX SE to Thummim (take it how you will, I’m sure the comparison raises eyebrows ) - Thummim had moments which got me going “hmm too bright” but LX SE’s sound signature feels more comfortable to my ears.
As for the previous posts on Traillii, I may be at the other spectrum of plebeian who doesn’t know and care enough for graphs. But my purchase of Traillii is a learning lesson. I like it, but I think I wouldn’t pay so much for an IEM anymore after this. I’d wait for pre-loved ones if an IEM’s price is in that region. That was just one crazy wallet-burning moment that I’d have to laugh about (Joker laugh*)

I prefer both LX’s tuning to Thummim, so you’re not an outlier. Both IEM’s have their respective camps and mercenaries lol.

Although admittedly, I do really enjoy and respect the Traillii as one of the best, I’ll never spend that amount again on an IEM. After the EVO, it dawned on me that if I could obtain the most fun / audiophile mixed IEM for $3100… I have no business spending even $5000 for something that impressed me to the same degree with different tuning. To each is own but I learned a similar lesson.