[jax]

My resources say otherwise, but, as I said, ymmv. I have been using a pair of tsr black glass '42s in my tp since April, and have a pair of Black Treasures on the way for mid Jan delivery. I'll share my own opinion when I have one. Alas, it will be limited to the MWTP circuit though- and that is where my own reports are coming from, as I said; friends who use these tubes in that application. Quote:

Originally Posted by tosehee /img/forum/go_quote.gif From what I read from the other's impression, Shuang is NOT worth the price and hardly dethrone Tung Sung 6SN7.

 

[tosehee]

Everyone's different on their hearing and taste, so I have no objection against your impressions.

Take a look at WA22 tube rolling thread which has a good list of impressions and reviews about the 6SN7 tubes along with several owners who also own both treasure you are mentioning and comared.

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tosehee /img/forum/go_quote.gif From what I read from the other's impression, Shuang is NOT worth the price and hardly dethrone Tung Sung 6SN7.

Would you provide some links to the other impressions you've read on this tube that are not favorable? I would like to read those and to see what applications they are being used in and what they are comparing them to.

Here's the link to the last page of the Modwright TP tube rolling thread that I mentioned, where the Shuguang is mentioned. You can page through that long-running thread to get more insight into what those guys have been trying (me among them). Again, different circuit, different application, but similar tubes...ymmv. Ultimately the best test is to try this stuff out yourself with your own ears and your own gear. One man's 'unlistenable dreck' might be another man's second coming of the savior. You may like listening to Malignant Mushroom at ear-splitting volume, while another might prefer Marin Marais at sound levels that preserve one's hearing for future listening in later years. You may like detail, another may prefer warmth. You say potato and I say tuber.

 

[tosehee]

I'd love to, but I don't have a time to search around at the moment, due mostly to new year events and family gatherings.

Look over at WA22 and tube rolling threads started by seamaster. He and others have expressed their impressions of it compared to other cheaper models.

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tosehee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Everyone's different on their hearing and taste, so I have no objection against your impressions.

Let me clarify: These are not "my" impressions. I have not received my tubes and have offered no opinion of my own. Yes, agreed; all this stuff is entirely subjective. Take any advice from anyone, no matter how seasoned, with more than just a grain of salt.

Quote:

Take a look at WA22 tube rolling thread which has a good list of impressions and reviews about the 6SN7 tubes along with several owners who also own both treasure you are mentioning and comared.

I did take a look at another thread started by Seamaster on tube rolling in the WA22 (thanks for pointing it out). I read a few offhand comments about the Black Treasure tubes there, but none were very detailed, nor offered much background as to whether the tubes had been adequately burned in, or judged right out of the box. I could not find any direct comparisons to TSR's, but I may have missed that. Is this the only place you have read about other's impressions of this tube?

Seamaster, have you tried out those tubes yourself? Sorry if I missed specific comments. Reports from the folks on the MWTP thread, and from Ian Grant, who is a dealer / distributor, indicate that the tubes required some burn-in to sound their best. I remain curious to read further impressions from others.

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tosehee /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd love to, but I don't have a time to search around at the moment, due mostly to new year events and family gatherings.

No rush, whenever you have time on another day, sometime next year. I completely understand. I'm recovering from a foot surgery so happen to have way too much time on my hands at the moment, hence the immersion into headphone listening. I am curious to read further impressions and wonder why they'd be so widely different from what my friends are experiencing of that tube.

Happy 2010! Enjoy your celebrations!

Quote:

Look over at WA22 and tube rolling threads started by seamaster. He and others have expressed their impressions of it compared to other cheaper models.

I'll have to take a closer look, but all I recall reading there of that specific tube were kind of knee-jerk impressions with no detailed accounts, and no indication at all if a burn-in period was done in advance of judgment. I may have missed something as the only comment I recall reading from Seamaster implied that they had not tried the tube themselves. Again, sorry if I missed something there and thanks for pointing out the thread.

 

[Seamaster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jax /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm reading this thread with some interest as I've got a WA6SE on the way from a fellow head-fier. Also, because many of the tubes your futzing about with are crossover to the output stage of my Modwright Transporter, which is very sensitive to tube rolling. Certainly there are a lot of crossover comments I see here..the EML 5U4G is the darling of the MWTP crowd besting almost all comers aside from perhaps the High Wycombe Mullard GZ37 fat bottle from the 40's. Both run around the same price. Dan Wright also had some xtra soldering to do when folks discovered just how good the EML made the MWTP sound, but at the same time tubes were having very short lives. Turns out there was a cap in the path that was of too low a value. The EML wants to see a very specific value there. I can't remember the specifics, but George over at TubesUSA should know (haven't seen this mentioned here - but may have missed it). Without that cap at the right value you may as well stand in a cold shower and rip up the dead presidents while you weep quitely and recite something profound like Rutger Hauer at the end of Blade Runner. We also do the 9-pin > Octal adapter thing because the octals sound better. You can also to to the 7n7 variant with yet another adapter (L-Octal) if you want to save money on tubes. Favorite up until recent was the very expensive 40's TungSol black plate military 6SN7. Theres a Greek dude (fellow named John who goes by Lowbander80 on both sites) on eBay an A'gon who seems to have the mother load and is living high on the retsina by selling them off pair by pair at $300-400 a pair! Damn fine tubes, but may have met their match. You may not like Chinese, but you'd be doing yourself a disservice to skip this tip - Try out the new Shuguang C181-Z Black Treasure tubes in place of your 6SN7's! Grant Fidelity up in Canada imports them. They've supposedly dethroaned the king TungSol and beaten him at his own game. The other one I think you may have already mentioned, is the NOS Russian variants with metal base and round perforations in the plates. There all pretty pricey for the demand. I've got my money on the Black Treasures as folks I know very well have told me the kind of things that brings the wallet out late at night with that zombie-like vacant stare of obedience. There's a long thread on the Modwright section of AudioCircle on tube rolling in the Transporter. It's stickied up to the top... I think it's over 100 pages now. There may be some useful crossover pointers in there for anyone interested. Yeah, I know, different circuit and YMMV, but there are certainly some basic strengths that do cross over. I'm going to hold off on using my EML 5u4G in the circuit (we like to call that one the John Holmes of rectifier tubes - if you've seen one up close and personal you'll know why)...I don't want him going flacid on me before his time. He sure makes that Transporter sing. I have a Princess on the way, a few alternative GZ32/37 and 5AR4 variants to try out too. Thanks for the thread Seamaster. I'm new to the headphone thing coming from my 30-year + chip as an audiophile. Still preferring the impact of my big rig, but the smaller one can certainly be compelling.

It is very nice to know Modwright already know EML 5U4G. Don't get me worng EML 5U4G are beautifull sounding tube. There are only weak spots are:
1. lack sense of impact in low range ONLY COMPARE to GZ34 type.
2. Sound has full body, which make them SEEMS less dynamic like Sophia 274B. This is not consider weak point to myself, but someone else may not like it in their system.
3 Too tall to fit on in the rack unless on the top. EML emailed me they are reducing glass size right now. Again I don't care how big they are as long as sound good.
If EML 5U4G has little more kick feel to them, they will be the perfect tube to me. The full body signature, I don't worry about it, since I am using HD650 right now, which are dark and thick anyway. I am going to get T1, should be nice match.

Shuguang C181-Z Black Treasure tubes, how much better thay are compare to NOS CV181? I am open minded, so I will look up. The 6F8G easily overcome any 6SN7 type tubes I have, I mean very easy. Also I am getting a special order pair of adapters for them with silver single crystal cryo hook-up wire and Mondrof solder.

GZ32 are very nice sounding tube better than CV378 I had. They are kind soft, just a bit. Either Sophia and EML will outperform them thought.

So far the black horse came out of no where and kick me in the butt for the money is 5Z3 type. For the price, you can't beat them.

The reason I type this thread up is: I want other people know what tube options are before dropping hard earned money. Too many broken hearts in this hobby!

 

[Seamaster]

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/wa2...78/index4.html

Here is your Shuguang C181-Z Black Treasure VS. 6F8G

Please note: he had some hard sounding power tubes to begain with, and 6F8Gs he had were brand new not ran-in.

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/wa2...78/index4.html Here is your Shuguang C181-Z Black Treasure VS. 6F8G Please note: he had some hard sounding power tubes to begain with, and 6F8Gs he had were brand new not ran-in.

Thanks for the link, Seamaster, but I did read that post by Pedalhead. It really doesn't tell me much if he's using both these tubes straight out of the box, but he doesn't say so. This is one of the posts that I was referring to in my response. Also from his impression:

Quote:

Now that the adapaters have arrived, I've been comparing the Raytheon JAN 6F8G/VT99 with the Shuguang CV181. Clearly, I could have saved myself 300+ bucks. The sound opens up with these 6F8Gs, a little more space, and the bass is definitely harder hitting. Daft Punk's "Discovery" is great for testing bass tightness & impact, and this is definitely the best I have heard it. The 6F8G is less "tubey" sounding, with more of a SS flavour to it, but not so much that I no longer think I'm listening to a tube amp.

I actually prefer a tubey sound myself, at least my interpretation of that word (implying a lower midrange emphasis with some degree of 2nd order harmonic distortion lending to a kind of warmth or sweetness...ie coloration), over an SS sound....in the strictest sense of what that comparison means to me. Also, as much as I appreciate clean extension at both extremes, I'm not at all a bass head and "Daft Punk" is not even remotely in the realms of what I listen to (no offense at all intended to the band or to Pedalhead). So, just for me, for those various reasons, these impressions don't mean much, especially given no indication at all as to degree of break-in. Also, I am entirely unfamiliar with the other tube he is comparing it to, so have no real reference there either.

Interesting impressions of the EML 5U4G - thanks. In the MWTP it is king for most of us who've rolled a bunch of rectifiers through that front end. It lends a fullness and richness while not bluring details in any way. The music sounds more dense, but without losing speed or dynamics as one might expect from the added weightiness. Instruments seem to have more air around them. Transients seem to hang longer and decay more naturally. Sounstaging is superb, both width and depth (I'm used to listening with speakers not cans, so forgive me as I'm not really a good critic where that's concerned and my comments would reflect a lack of experience). I just try to describe it as best I can and don't claim to be any expert on putting such things to words. I've tried a few other 5U4g's including Tungsol and Sylvania, as well as a few variants on Mullard military rectifiers in that family which are also pretty good. The NOS Mullards seem to fall short for me in not being able to give the same kind of density the EML does, but they do a whole bunch of the rest right on par with the EML. I have not tried the High Wycombe GZ37 fat bottle myself, but have been told that it comes closest to the EML.

I'm looking forward to trying out the Black Treasures given Dan's impressions of them, as well as a few others I know from the MW circle. Not looking forward to a 300 hour burn-in though!

Again, we are talking about different applications here so it is not surprising at all that there are various differences. I was just surprised at an extreme divergence in performance, like tosehee seems to be reporting.

 

[tosehee]

Jax.

Your background and experiences seem to be far more than I am in terms of tube world. I was more of SS type of guy until recently. I just saw your comments on Shuguang Treasure, and remembered reading some members saying that it's not worth the money it asks.

I just typed in what I read, but it's not based on my personal experiences. Don't get me wrong on that.. My WA22 hasn't arrived and I still got 2 more weeks before I actually listen to my 1st (actually 2nd) in terms of headphone amp. So, I can probably report back better with my own experience.

 

[Seamaster]

I love tube sound, but not to a point to be a blinded tube head, ignore all other great audio quality. 65% of best tube quality + 35% best of SS state would be ideal. But such perfect equipments probably never will exist in my life time. I try to get as close as possible.

 

[Seamaster]

Woo amps (stock) are at south edge of lush side of the game. Too much "tube sound" will be more harm than help.

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tosehee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your background and experiences seem to be far more than I am in terms of tube world. I was more of SS type of guy until recently. I just saw your comments on Shuguang Treasure, and remembered reading some members saying that it's not worth the money it asks.

Thanks for clarifying the Shuguang impressions. Like I said, take all this stuff, no matter who it's coming from (including me), with more than just a grain of salt. Your own impressions are much more valid to you than anyone else's impressions should be. Like you, probably, I just have a curiosity of what others impressions are as a point of reference, and I try to get some kind of idea where it's coming from and how close that is to my own agenda. That's why I was curious as to where the comments were originating. In the case of Dan and folks over at the Modwright forum, I'm pretty familiar with their general tastes and have developed a respect for some who I've found that I see eye-to-eye with on many occasions. That's what I find valuable in sticking with a forum for a length of time - you get to know some of the people and where their point of reference is.

Quote:

My WA22 hasn't arrived and I still got 2 more weeks before I actually listen to my 1st (actually 2nd) in terms of headphone amp. So, I can probably report back better with my own experience.

You and me both! Congrats on your WA22. I'm waiting for me WA6SE due to arrive on Monday. I'm looking forward to it as the headphone thing has allowed me to enjoy my music more directly during this confinement in my recovery from surgery (I'm non weight-bearing on one foot and have to keep it elevated for 6-8 weeks! Which translates to a lot of time on my back). I've been really impressed with what a good headphone amp has to offer. So I'm in new territory too. Thank you for your candor, and happy new year!

 

[jax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif I love tube sound, but not to a point to be a blinded tube head, ignore all other great audio quality. 65% of best tube quality + 35% best of SS state would be ideal. But such perfect equipments probably never will exist in my life time. I try to get as close as possible.

I agree that perfection is the unreachable carrot at the end of the stick. Tube and SS both have admirable qualities and some good designers have managed to bring some of those together in various ways. I no longer limit myself to one topology and would not put myself in any camp at this point. I've had my fervent moments where I would have defended one to the end, but here are so many effective and enjoyable vehicles to get you down that road. I'd have to say SET and OTL have been and remain two of my personal favorites. I love music and whatever brings me closer to it is a good thing. In general I do prefer the colorations of tube circuits to the harder edges of SS. It is a pretty broad generalization though. It is easy to add the general observation that the even order harmonic distortions of tubes are more pleasing to the human ear than the odd-order distortions of SS, but there are so many other variables at play, not to mention the rest of the system the amp is connected to. Horses for courses. Happy 2010!

 

[tosehee]

Ouch.

I hope you are okay. I used to own WA6 (not SE), and that's mainly the reason why I switched back from SS to Tube amps.

I have owned and own tube amps for regular stereo system in my house, but I haven't used them much with my kids sleeping at night. I find the headphone usage to be 100% of my time in last 4 years now.

I also learned and read many great people here in HF which I come to trust. Like you said, I don't believe their reviews/impressions blindly, but they are good reference point since I do know where they are coming from.

I hope to read your review of Shuguang Treasure. I was interested in this also, but abandoned since reading many negative reviews of it. But then, like your said, a proper burn-in might be required for this tube.

In any rate, enjoy your amp and Happy New Year.