Elekit TU-8200 DX Headphone/Speaker Amp Review
Mar 15, 2015 at 7:15 PM Post #136 of 1,441
Effusion,
 
thank you for that detailed answer! I really appreciate you taking time to help out!
 
I have already sent Emi an e-mail about the KT77 and also asked if there is a complete list of accepted tubes.
The reason why I'm looking in to the Genalex Gold Lion KT77 is that I want just a bit more clarity/presence/detail in vocals (female) and maybe an over all more "air" (does that make any sense?). I also been looking at TAD EL34-SVT but I think that might be a bit to much.
As for my budget, sure I could buy Psvane but not until I'm a bit more educated about tubes.
 
Again, thank you for your detailed answer!
 
Mar 15, 2015 at 7:20 PM Post #137 of 1,441
  Mr Chance,
[...]  
Is there any type of sound signature that you are after in particular?  What type of headphones do you use [...]

 
I want just a bit more clarity/presence/detail in vocals (female) and maybe an over all more "air" (does that make any sense?). I listen to mostly Jazz, a lot of it being vocal, and opera. I use Audio-Technica W5000 as my main headphones but I also have a pair of Sennheiser HD600.
 
Mar 15, 2015 at 8:15 PM Post #138 of 1,441

 
Effusion,
 
The tubes that I questioned were GE 7581A/KT66's, they were very close in transconductance (Less than 5% difference, and NOS spec), but the current draw on the plates were vastly different... 39mA in one and 21mA's in the other (the current range is 12mA-40mA, so one was right at the uppper limit).  I ended up reluctantly returning them, I got them for a great deal and wanted to keep them. Even with the TU-8200's auto-bias, it seemed like the best thing to do was return them.
 
My current audio setup is far from "Audiophile Grade", either my MacBook Air or an older PC laptop that is used as my TV media center supply the music (generally FLAC or 320kbps mp3). Then it's on to a Schiit Modi 2 Uber supplying the TU-8200. The Modi 2 has more options (16/24bit 44-192kHz) vs the Elekit DAC that sits inside the TU-8200 (16bit 44-48kHz). Either Focal Spirit Pros or my modded Fostex T50RP's do the honors headphone wise, via a 20' DIY Mogami mic cable I put together. My TV is plugged into the Modi 2 via TOSLINK and I watch tv with the TU-8200 and Fostex Speakers.
 
Mar 16, 2015 at 9:56 PM Post #140 of 1,441
Mr Chance,
 
You're very welcome, and I hope the following helps.
 
I haven't been fortunate enough to hear the Audio-Technica W5000s, so I can't really comment on them so much as the HD600s, which I had for a brief period years ago and are also very close to the HD650s.  For Jazz and classical, especially with female vocals, you probably want a smooth and high resolution mid-range, with a little sparkle up top.  I agree, I also tend to really like great air or space in the sound, making live recordings "feel" live, so soundstage would also be important as well.
 
It is hard for me to say what new production tubes would benefit you the most, as I haven't tried too many, but I have had good luck with the Macintosh KT-88s, which are my daily multi-use pair.  However, you may find that you really like the EL34s in general, which I've found to add a great amount of air with the addition of a little extra mid-range magic, especially in the upper mid-range.  You could try the new production Mullards by New Sensor Corporation, or the SED Winged "C", both Russian companies, if just to see if they are your flavor, but ultimately either the Telefunken, which have really great upper mid-range and highs, or the NOS Mullards from the Blackburn factory, which give some of the best mid-range and sound a bit more full than the Telefunkens, will probably give you the best in overall sound quality for this type.
 
The same really goes for the 12au7s, I've only tried the Telefunken smooth plate, but it was very nice in upper frequencies, while the Mullards are generally mid-range beasts, with the Brimars being similar, but giving just a bit more resolution; the Mullards may be a little too laid-back with your HD600s/cable, which might over-emphasis the Senn "veil".  Also, many have had good luck with the Amperex, either orange globe or bugle boys.  As far as new production, many have found the Psvane 12au7, mark II I believe, to be very nice, and may work well for you; Victor is a good source of information on these I believe.  However, it may be best to try a different power tube first and then see where you end up.  A pretty good, not the best though, NOS 12au7 are the RCA clear tops, which should sound much better than the Made in China stamped stock tubes.
 
I hope this helps, but let us know.  Also, fellow headfier mhamel has quite a few new production variants and was planning on letting us know how each ultimately turned out, so stay tuned!
 
JK-47,
 
It was probably the best idea to just return them, even if the price was really good, as the vast variation may indicate that there is an issue with one of the tubes.  Do you happen to have a Tube Manual, that is one that lists the readings for each tube at nominal value?  G.E.'s manual is considered the best and most comprehensive, but some may also include these voltages, along with the GM.  Anyway, I'm sure another good deal will pop up at some point, patience is everything, and so is getting what you expect, which in this case was a matched pair.
 
I like the system, thanks for sharing!  Many of us here can attest that this audio stuff is really a journey, not just a destination, and most of us started out with pretty basic systems that we have added to or tweaked over the years.  No need to rush in and spend thousands upon thousands, unless you are confident in what you ultimately want and have had exposure to everything you end up buying (in a perfect world, right!).  It is also always hard to gauge someones ears and preferences, but even a great set of ears can usually be able to discern differences in a lower resolution system, at least in general.  The source and the end, in my opinion, are the most important, so starting with a high quality format, fed to a quality DAC, and ultimately to a nice pair of speakers/cans is very important.  Not that amplifiers are not important, as we have all experienced with the Elekit, but they really build upon the source and then affect everything they feed; the old saying probably reigns true here though, garbage in, garbage out, no matter how good the amplifier.  Anyway, you have a fine system that should be giving you some really great sound!
 
john57,
 
The EL34's are a very nice sounding tube, however I would be reluctant to call them the most transparent.  All tubes add distortion in the 3rd and 4th harmonics, as they are often referred to as distortion tubes.  However, distortion in these harmonics is different than the 1st and/or 2nd, that we generally associated to distortion in sound, and to many make the music actually sound more organic and natural... similar to how a live album sounds compared to a tightly controlled studio album.  With that said, the EL34's do change the sound and add their own flavor.  I've found that while some of the EL34s have great resolution, generally the KT-66 and KT-88 varieties have been more pronounced, with more weight/body, and better low-end resolution.  So, it is really hard to say which of the tubes that the Elekit can use, and that I've tried, are the most transparent, as they all add a little bit of their own flavor, while taking away other qualities as well.  I know that's probably not really the answer you were looking for, but honestly the best way to find out is to use your own system/ears, experiment with different types, and see where the chips fall.
 
Mar 16, 2015 at 11:37 PM Post #141 of 1,441
Effusion,
 
Thanks for the tube manual idea, I literally just bought a 1961 GE and a 1975 Sylvania from ebay after I read your post.
 
The thing about the Maximatcher 2 is that is more of a buyers tube tester, the Gm readings for 6L6GC tubes are no where near what a Hickok tester (the ebay standard) will produce. The Maxi's fail threshold is 2200Gm, and most of my vintage 6L6GC tubes are barely over that  (2300-2700Gm). Even the stock Electro Harmonix 6L6's were only 2550Gm with 40-50hrs on them. Whether it be the real world plate voltage of 400V, this tester really has a fine line with 6L6 tubes, when I measured my KT88's and EL34's, they were almost 2000Gm over the minimum standard listed by Maxi. That's OK by me, I'd rather have a tough test than an easy one, but if I plan on selling tubes, a Hickock will be in the cards...
 
Mar 17, 2015 at 3:49 PM Post #142 of 1,441
Well... to my dismay one of my Philco 6189's is microphonic... I contacted the seller and he will send me a replacement, phew!
 
As the Philips 7581A's continue to burn in, I'm liking them more and more !!! I'm glad I bought 4, for a great deal. They provide exceptional clarity, detail, dynamics, soundstage, and punch top to bottom. Mine were produced in 1985, and their lineage is from Sylvania 6L6GC STR387, and then the Sylvania/Philips 6L6GC STR415 (they 415's look pretty much identical). Which can be had for a lower price, but I haven't had a chance to audition them yet...
 
One of my reference tracks is Dire Straits' 8min+ version of  "Money for Nothing". The Amperex Orange Globe 12AU7's and Philips 7581A's just put a huge smile on my face...
 
Mar 17, 2015 at 6:07 PM Post #143 of 1,441
Jk47, I just picked it up a couple days ago from a kid in denver. I had wanted to build a tu-879 for a while and then the 8200 when it came out. But this one was very well built and I stumbled across it on Craigslist so I went for it. Ive really been enjoying the music for the past couple days. the usb dac is even a decent placeholder while my Peachtree Decco is in for repairs yet again.

With the Peachtree in the chain as the DAC and preamp however the sound is incredible. Soundstage has opened up substantially compared to the integrated speaker amp on the Peachtree. The tubes really give my Paradigm Monitor 7 a sense of warmth, depth, and realism that was missing from the somewhat mediocre 40wpc Peachtree amp. Im excited to start rolling some power tubes when they arrive. I am going to stick with the psvane mkii 12au7 in the preamp position so ill be getting rid of a couple pairs of clear tops and a pair of bugle boys.

Ill try to listen to a bit more music on headphones too so i can post some impressions. All i own now are Hd700 and Grado Sr80i though. Also Ill post impressions of the new issue mullard vs stock once I get them in. Later on im getting some psvane mkii premium power tubes, kt88 and el34. On that note Greg70 if you want to email me its my username at gmail.

Quick question, anyone been to the vacuum tube store in Denver? Is it a good resource for NOS tubes? I don't feel that comfortable dropping big $ on NOS on ebay.
 
Mar 17, 2015 at 8:22 PM Post #144 of 1,441
LingLing1337,
 
Congrats on the purchase, it is really an incredible amplifier and once you start to experiment with different tubes, you'll be hooked... both line and sinker! 
normal_smile .gif

 
By vacuum store in Denver, I'm assuming that you are referring to Vacuum Tube Supplies, LLC, which if you are, is a really great place to go and check out.  Peter and Ellen are super nice folks, with a ton of experience from years and years of being in the business.  Peter is amazing and knows probably everything you would ever want to know about amplifiers/tubes.  I believe he is the "go to" guy for all Guitar Centers on the Front Range and is always swamped with tons of repairs; from Hi-Fi, to guitar amps, to vintage boutique amps, to everything in-between.  Ellen handles the sales/customers and is really passionate about tubes in general and happy customers.
 
Now, they do have a ton of NOS tubes and many for sale, mostly on their eBay storefront Vacuum-Tube-Supplies, but I have inquired about various NOS tubes that work with the Elekit in the past and unfortunately they never seem to really have many available for purchase.  They told me that they never really get any of the NOS KT series in anymore, that they sometimes get NOS EL34s in, but they fly off the shelves within minutes, and they probably have some 6L6GCs available most of the time.  They are meticulous about their testing, using a really nice/accurate Hickok 539C, and their customer service is top-notch.  Only issue is getting what you are looking for, as unfortunately, the NOS tubes that work with the Elekit, power tubes in-particular, are so darn popular.  They may have some 12au7s and variants available though.
 
Peter also designs equipment for their Hi-Fi company, Fletcher Haynes Audio; unfortunately their site seems to be down, but here is an article from Stereo Mojo.  They offer some really cool gear, including a completely passive pre-amp with a remote control (crazy!), that I'm seriously considering trying one out as it would really come in handy.  They also offer a really cool phono-preamp, that has a ton of adjustments, load and such, for just about everything (which I've found is absolutely essential to getting the best sound out of your stylus).  Anyway, check them out if you are interested, they also come often to RMAF, since they are already really close.
 
If you're in the area, it's worth it to stop by to see what Ellen has in stock, otherwise most of their business is over the phone and Internet, with the bulk of their sales of tubes off eBay.  You never know, they may have some really nice NOS KT-88s in stock!  If you are interested in new production tubes at all, I highly recommend them as well, as they really take their time to test/match each pair they sell as well as working with suppliers to get the very best batches in stock.
 
Happy Listening!
 
Mar 18, 2015 at 7:43 PM Post #146 of 1,441
  Effusion,
 
Thanks for the tube manual idea, I literally just bought a 1961 GE and a 1975 Sylvania from ebay after I read your post.
 
The thing about the Maximatcher 2 is that is more of a buyers tube tester, the Gm readings for 6L6GC tubes are no where near what a Hickok tester (the ebay standard) will produce. The Maxi's fail threshold is 2200Gm, and most of my vintage 6L6GC tubes are barely over that  (2300-2700Gm). Even the stock Electro Harmonix 6L6's were only 2550Gm with 40-50hrs on them. Whether it be the real world plate voltage of 400V, this tester really has a fine line with 6L6 tubes, when I measured my KT88's and EL34's, they were almost 2000Gm over the minimum standard listed by Maxi. That's OK by me, I'd rather have a tough test than an easy one, but if I plan on selling tubes, a Hickock will be in the cards...

 
Very interesting info on the Maximatcher 2, good to know.  I always assumed that the "real-world" voltage tests of these modern testers would be more accurate than the traditional GM tests, however I could see where this would create issues when even the pretty much brand new stock EH 6L6GC is so close to their minimum limit.  I wonder if there is any additional info regarding 6L6GCs and these testers out on the web.  Glad to hear that at least the KT-88s and EL34s have some headroom to their test, as at least a little variance to the limit is helpful when trying to establish a percentage, etc.  I hope the tube manuals prove to be useful, however many list the nominal values the tubes should be at when new, instead of a minimum.  Another option to consider to get a better idea and perhaps a baseline if their listed limits appear to be to high, would be to try a bogey tube, that is a tube that is used to calibrate different testers; look for ones that have gone through the ropes and been verified to provide accurate results, usually between $30-$50.
 
Is there any way, such as an option on the board, to test the tubes without the real-world voltage, that is similar to a traditional Hickok and other brand's test?
 
I'm very intrigued in regards to the Philips 7581A and I'll have to try to find a good price on a pair to try them out soon.  Have you had the chance to compare them to a NOS KT-66 at all?  It seems they may be even rarer than some of the smoked glass NOS KT-66s... at least the prices I've seen would suggest that.
 
Keep the impressions coming!
 
Mar 18, 2015 at 9:06 PM Post #147 of 1,441
Effusion,
 
After some hunting and reading on the internet, one fellow with a MaxiMatcher said he lowered the Bias Voltage from the suggested -48V to -36V when testing 6L6 tubes. I tried it, and sure enough the Gm reading are very close to Hickock Gm readings!!! The current readings (mA) are also very close to Hickock current readings (for the few that have set up their Hickock to do so) leading me to believe this is the way to go when comparing Maxi (+/-1.5%)  readings with Hickock's(+/-10% generally). I'm quite happy with this discovery, and it falls in line with the tolerances of each tester's results (so far subtracting 10% from the Hickock results are almost bang on when the Maxi is set at the -36 bias voltage).
 
I'm going to start shopping for a good deal on the Sylvania/Philips 6L6GC STR415's so I can compare to the virtually identical looking Philips 7518A, I paid $230 shipped for the quad of Philips 7581A's. Generally I have seen them listed for $150-$200 a pair. I paid $50 for the pair of GE 7581A's (they look identical to the GE 6L6GC's) I sent back, I have seen them for a lot more $$$ than that (and it hurt to see the current so out of wack, and return them). Philips bought Sylvania's tube production in approximately 1980 and continued using the same plant for tubes...
 
I haven't tried a set of old stock KT66's yet, but will start to look... Your tube recommendation are bang on, and I hold all of your opinions in high regard.
 
I see in your signature you have a Technics SL-1200MkII (RIP) ... Oh how I miss mine and all my Vinyl...
 
This post was powered by the TRON Legacy OST and a bottle of Buffalo Trace... oh, and spell check..lol
 
Mar 19, 2015 at 11:44 PM Post #148 of 1,441
Very glad to hear that lowering the bias voltage of the Maximatcher a bit allows for better readings, at least closer to Hickok, with the 6L6GC tubes.  Nice discovery and thanks for sharing!
 
I've tried both a pair of clear glass NOS GEC KT-66 as well as a pair of NOS Genalex Smoked Glass KT-66 and have really enjoyed both of them.  I've found that the Genalex is generally fuller in sound overall, having more weight/slam to the notes with a slightly richer tone, but both are really nice sounding.  Fellow headfier bixby also agreed with these impressions when we auditioned the Elekit in his system with both my HD650s as well as his Mad Dogs, and while he preferred both of these pairs to the other power tubes we tried, he also favored the smoked glass overall.  Both pairs test right at NOS levels and are matched by date/factory codes, and I believe the smoked glass are the older of the two versions.  Definitely recommended, especially since you also have a modded pair of Fostex T50RPs; they really made bixby's Mad Dogs sing in his system, but shop around to try to get a good price as they can go quite high.  Also, if you can, try to get identical date stamp codes if possible, or at least very similar; a lot of sellers are selling mixed production pairs and I've been told recently that a lot of retooling was done in the early years in regards to some of the Genalex/GEC factories, even differences between the production lines in the same factory.  Although I'm not really sure how much, if any, difference it ultimately makes in discernible sound quality, it is always best for resale, that is if you need to at some point part with them.  I would be very interested in your impressions of them, compared to the 7518A and other variants you have (great job on those prices by the way).
 
Yup, I also love the SL-1200MkII, the 1200's are the best turntable ever made in my opinion.  I think Panasonic/Technics was just crazy for discontinuing the 1200 line... I mean, it's the original "wheel-of-steel" and are probably the best known and built turntables of all time, at least for the money.  I haven't checked in a while, but shortly after 2010 the remaining new stock started to dwindle to almost nothing and due to their sudden announcement of the discontinuation, prices for used ones, that were even pretty beat up, went through the roof!  Folks were buying them up like crazy, and at crazy prices.  I bought mine new way back in about '96 for $375 and is still in mint condition; I still have all the original packaging and even the receipt!  Talk about an investment, I've seen them go for up to $2,000 used, crazy!  Although I'm really not planning to ever sell, nor stop buying vinyl anytime soon... there is just something about the sound of vinyl.  Crazy to think that vinyl was almost dead until recently, at least for newer production runs, but the funny thing is that mp3/flac really ended up only killing CDs in many ways, and at the same time creating more of a need/demand for the organic sounding, many times artfully packaged, vinyl record market.  Plus, many artists now offer free downloads in mp3/flac/wav when you purchase the vinyl version... very cool!
 
Thanks for your vote of confidence on the tube recommendations; always very nice to have the reassurance that one's own impressions are not completely straying folks away or misleading.  I'm really just glad that I've hopefully been able to help others get closer to their own state of audio bliss with this amplifier, but at the end of the day, the real thanks has to go to Mr. Fujita, Victor, and all the folks at Elekit for making it possible.
 
Mar 20, 2015 at 2:35 PM Post #149 of 1,441
Effusion,
 
thank you for your reply and your suggestions. I e-mailed Emi at Elikit and I got the answer that KT77 and KT99 both work fine with the amp. Maybe you could edit your original post with that info so that it is documented where people easily could find it?
I went ahead and ordered this:
 

 
*Genalex Gold Lion KT77, TAD 12AU7WA and Mundorf MCap Aluminium Oil capacitors*
 
 
It will be my weekend project to try it out since I'm home alone without the wife :)
Does anyone no if the recommendation about letting the amp "rest" for ten minutes before opening it up also applies to changing tubes? 
 
Mar 20, 2015 at 5:02 PM Post #150 of 1,441
  Effusion,
 
thank you for your reply and your suggestions. I e-mailed Emi at Elikit and I got the answer that KT77 and KT99 both work fine with the amp. Maybe you could edit your original post with that info so that it is documented where people easily could find it?
I went ahead and ordered this:
 
*Insert picture of Genalex Gold Lion KT77, TAD 12AU7WA and Mundorf MCap Aluminium Oil capacitors*
(Do you have to have a certain amount of post before you can post pictures?)
 
It will be my weekend project to try it out since I'm home alone without the wife :)
Does anyone no if the recommendation about letting the amp "rest" for ten minutes before opening it up also applies to changing tubes? 

I think the 10min wait would be a good idea between tube changes (I wait at least 10min myself, as well as unplugging the amp from the power outlet). Not only are the tubes hot to the touch, it gives any voltage left over in the circuits a chance to dissipate. Elekit or Victor would be the best people to confirm this though.
 

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