Electrostats : How to start?

[xaval]

Let me start by saying that only once have I heard an electrostat phone. It was early in my "phile" career. I only remember it was a Stax system and I have no idea what model was. I remember though it sounded wonderful. However, I was just starting out on audio gear and all high end was always beautiful and exhilarating as I had very little references at the time other than current 80s mid-fi stuff.

So, exactly what should I be looking for as an entrance into stats here? I have no knowledge of a retailer where I live of carrying anything related to this so it's up with you guys to lead me on

I have no budget at the moment, but I'm looking into an entry level system to get my feet wet. Ideally, a setup I can unload later on the FS forum in case it was not at all what I had figured out off my imagination.

Besides the cans, I just realized you actually need an amplifier for these. I've read here about people running stats from anything from a Firestone (if k1000 is to be considered a stat phone) to really exotic stuff through mid-fi integrated integrated amps. What's the deal here also?

The kind of sound signature I'm looking into, broadly, is something that's far off from dynamics: blazing speed, airiness and detail. No specif music genre since I largely fluctuate between types of music: on the same day I can be listening to metal and suddenly I grab a Wagner or Haendel piece and finish off with Wilco.

 

[Currawong]

Confusingly, Stax called their amps "drivers". The modern amps are just like regular headphone amps in that they plug into the power and you connect a CD player or DAC or whatever to them. Of course, electrostats don't plug in like ordinary headphones as they work completely differently. The old amps, or drivers as they were called, connected to the speaker terminals of a hi-fi amp.

Ordinary headphones just use a voice coil, which moves according to a signal sent to it. Electrostats have two highly charged plates between which is a very thin metallisized membrane is sent a signal (or sometimes in reverse of that with electrostatic speakers). "Normal bias" vintage Stax are "biased" at 230V, and "Pro bias" newer models are 580V. Normal bias Stax headphones (or "earspeakers" as they call them) have a 6-pin plug. Pro bias Stax have a 5-pin plug. Some of the amps have sockets for both.

There are so many models that it's easy to get very confused. We're used to dealing with the current or recent line-up of a headphone manufacturer's wares, whereas Stax in contrast have been making headphones for about 4 decades, many models of which are still great. Unfortunately people have picked up on this and the prices of vintage Stax have shot up. I was lucky to pick up a basic, but good rig here on head-fi for $400 that eats most regular cans for breakfast and would require a serious investment in regular amps and headphones to match. Now you'd be lucky to be able to do that for about $800.

Maybe a good place to start is your budget. The Stax Mafia have their sources of good kit and bargains can still be had. There were some good entry-level vintage Stax on auction over here in Japan that went for about $400, so electrostatic bliss is still possible for reasonable $$. Also, since Japanese people foolishly think that newer is better, you can get a "top of the line" (for Stax, and not 3rd party) rig, Omega 2 MK1 headphones + 717 amp for <$2000 (Current models of both are MK2 and 727 respectively and considered not as good). This is, of course, before you consider amps like the Blue Hawaii at $6k.

 

[Shoewreck]

K1000 is a dynamic headphone. It's OK to run it with a not-so-powerful speaker amp, but that doesn't apply to electrostats.
You may try some old Stax headphones with a transformer box connected to a speaker amp (you see, it's similar to K1000 connection, but requires one extra box). It isn't the best, but it's the cheapest.
There also are some in-between options:
1) AKG K340 or a similar headphone - it features electrostatic (electret IIRC, but that's almost the same) transducers for high frequencies and dynamic transducers for low frequencies. Crossover and transformer are built-in, so speakeramp or powerful headamp is also required.

2) Orthodynamic headphones - are noted to sound a lot like electrostats by some users. I can't comment on that, but these sound superior to all dynamic headphones I've heard by now.

 

[-=Germania=-]

Best deal in audio IMO is still the Normal Bias Stax Lambda with an SRD-7.
Then get a really nice vintage amp or used one form ebay for $100 that is a something like a Yamaha natural sound, Rotel, Marantz, etc. For less than $500, you have a system that is killer.

I also at one point had the SR-5 and it was pretty decent with a very etherial sound. It had a large soundstage, but no impact. Whereas the SR-Lamda did have some impact and punch to it. Though, if you can get an SRD-5 with an SR-5 for $150 it is still a very good deal.

I only moved away from the SR-Lambda setup in favor of the CD1000 (same drivers as CD3000). But if you wanted to pick up a set of CD3000's in good condition, that alone is $550. So the value isn't really there comparatively.

What I do know from owning Stax is that it is where I hope to end up. A set of Jade's or MK1 O2's and a very nice amp.

 

[xaval]

Thanks for the input peeps.
I really want to try and keep this stat thing on a low budget, meaning around 500-600€. Even less would be awesome obviously.

Regarding the matter of "blazing speed" part (no probs with the bass impact) what would be my options?
From the ocasional browsing around stats they usually appeared with that nice little box besides them and I was really convinced that that it was the damn phone amp! I loled a bit when I realized how mistaken I was...

Regarding the amp I was wondering if I can connect this future "energizer thingy" to either my Jadis or one of the vintage amps I own? The Jadis is on the listening room which I tend to only use for loudspeaker listening. Since I spend most of my phone time in the study and here I have a nice vintage Luxman L series integrated amp that sounds just great despite it's some odd 30 years (and has a great HP out on it's own, btw), would it be suitable to use with a Stax?

As for the ortho's, I've been trying to get hold of a good pair, but to no avail. Ludoo had a great set just a while ago on the FS section, but I got in too late since he had just shipped them to someone else that same day. I'm only interested at the moment on getting either an HP3 or HP50 or a really nice modded one like Ludoo had

Stats and Orthos will be a part of my stable but I need to be "sure" of where I'm heading. I've spent a lot of stupid money on the first years of this hobby going for the grand slam only to find myself downgrading later on because I couldn't justify the money spent. Sure it sounded really great but I found I could enjoy my music with "less" hardware. I've owned the Jadis and Dunlavys for quite a few years now and this combo still amazes me and my wife today, even when coming back from Hi-fi shows with all the bling.

I'll take a look at those SR5 and eventually try to pickup a good deal.
Are the 202/303/404 series decent also?
I'm afraid I have still a lot of reading to do!

 

[krmathis]

I understand that it my be confusing, since its a bit different than "regular" moving-coil (dynamic) headphones.

Just like moving-coil headphones they need an amplifier, but not necessarily the same one. In basic you have two options:
1. Direct-driven amplifier/energizer. Accept line level input, and output directly to the headphone. Ex. Stax SRM-007t, SRM-717, SRM-1/Mk2 Pro, HeadAmp KGBH SE, Woo Audio WES, ...
2. Transformer. Need speaker level input, powered with a regular speaker amplifier. Ex. Stax SRD-7 (Pro or MK2), Illusion ESC-1001, ...

For Stax 'phones there are also two different bias voltages to take into consideration. Pro bias, which are 580v and use a 5-pin jack/plug. Normal bias, which are 230v and use a 6-pin jack/plug. All Stax 'phones since ~1990 are Pro bias.

I have never heard it myself, but one great system are the Stax SR-Lambda and SRD-7. Normal bias 'phones from the late -70's until mid -80's. Driven by a nice speaker amplifier you should have a really competitive system, and which should sell quite easily if you for some reason want to part with it.
Though there are lots of alternatives. Both new and used, expensive and relative cheap.

Hope I can welcome you to the team quite soon!

 

[robm321]

I agree the Lambdas would be the a great place to start while keeping costs down. I like that sound signature better than the O2s which is too laid back for me.

Of course it's not as refined but does almost everything well. I've picked up a used one with amp (SRM-1) for $400 on ebay. I gave taht set up to a friend because I just like dynamics better long term personally. You have to be patient to get a deal, but that's kind of the bang for your buck spot where the O2 you pay a premium for.

 

[xaval]

Regarding the bias/volts/pin is that something to be taken account with?

I'm sorry if I'm kinda being taken by the hand here, but it will probably make tings easier for me as I'll be doing my own homework

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaval /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the input peeps. I really want to try and keep this stat thing on a low budget, meaning around 500-600€. Even less would be awesome obviously. Regarding the matter of "blazing speed" part (no probs with the bass impact) what would be my options? From the ocasional browsing around stats they usually appeared with that nice little box besides them and I was really convinced that that it was the damn phone amp! I loled a bit when I realized how mistaken I was... Regarding the amp I was wondering if I can connect this future "energizer thingy" to either my Jadis or one of the vintage amps I own? The Jadis is on the listening room which I tend to only use for loudspeaker listening. Since I spend most of my phone time in the study and here I have a nice vintage Luxman L series integrated amp that sounds just great despite it's some odd 30 years (and has a great HP out on it's own, btw), would it be suitable to use with a Stax? As for the ortho's, I've been trying to get hold of a good pair, but to no avail. Ludoo had a great set just a while ago on the FS section, but I got in too late since he had just shipped them to someone else that same day. I'm only interested at the moment on getting either an HP3 or HP50 or a really nice modded one like Ludoo had Stats and Orthos will be a part of my stable but I need to be "sure" of where I'm heading. I've spent a lot of stupid money on the first years of this hobby going for the grand slam only to find myself downgrading later on because I couldn't justify the money spent. Sure it sounded really great but I found I could enjoy my music with "less" hardware. I've owned the Jadis and Dunlavys for quite a few years now and this combo still amazes me and my wife today, even when coming back from Hi-fi shows with all the bling. I'll take a look at those SR5 and eventually try to pickup a good deal. Are the 202/303/404 series decent also? I'm afraid I have still a lot of reading to do!

All electro's have 'blazing speed.' I know the moving coil technology been around since 1937 or before. Not sure about planar.. I do like my Ortho Audio technics 810.. But the clarity, seperation, & detail is lacking compared to my better dynamics that I have. I won't judge all ortho's based on my 810.. & i'm sure electro's are on another level compared to most ortho's.. Stock.. Electro's can't be beat for the peformance they give you. Price to performance ratio.. To better some electrostat sonic characteristics with a dynamic headphone will cost you much more.. I just wish electro's were more user friendly..Ie, driven from any amp with a 1/4 jack..

 

[krmathis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaval /img/forum/go_quote.gif Regarding the bias/volts/pin is that something to be taken account with? I'm sorry if I'm kinda being taken by the hand here, but it will probably make tings easier for me as I'll be doing my own homework

Yes, you need to keep the difference in mind.
Pro bias 'phones are backwards compatible with Normal bias amplifiers/energizers/transformers. They will work, even if not to their max. Normal bias 'phones will not work with Pro bias amplifiers/energizers/transformers. So in short you need a matching 'phone and amplifier/energizer/transformer.

I highly recommend you read the Wikipedia article: Stax Earspeakers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Canman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif All electro's have 'blazing speed.'...

Electrostatic headphones may all have 'blazing speed' but don't take that to mean that they all share a similar sound signature. Some are bright, airy and ethereal while some are bassy and laid back.

Electrostatics have become a popular topic of conversation but they are not automatically superior to dynamic headphones. Electrostatics have pros and cons of varying degrees. You might have to venture down the electrostatic road yourself to see if they are for you.

You mentioned the K1000 which is a personal favorite of mine...it is top notch in all the qualities you mention - speed, airiness, detail. With a good amp, I prefer it to any of the electrostatics (except for the HE-90 and have not heard the Stax SR-Omega or Jade). Unfortunately, the K-1000 is out of production and as far as I know AKG is not servicing this model anymore.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canman /img/forum/go_quote.gif Electrostatic headphones may all have 'blazing speed' but don't take that to mean that they all share a similar sound signature. Some are bright, airy and ethereal while some are bassy and laid back. Electrostatics have become a popular topic of conversation but they are not automatically superior to dynamic headphones. Electrostatics have pros and cons of varying degrees. You might have to venture down the electrostatic road yourself to see if they are for you. You mentioned the K1000 which is a personal favorite of mine...it is top notch in all the qualities you mention - speed, airiness, detail. With a good amp, I prefer it to any of the electrostatics (except for the HE-90 and have not heard the Stax SR-Omega or Jade). Unfortunately, the K-1000 is out of production and as far as I know AKG is not servicing this model anymore.

I'm sure many will argue that electros are technically superior due to no moving coil. I think both dynamic/Electro have inherent pro/con. There just seems to be a census that planar/electros are better.. It would be something if the HD800 is just as fast as electro's or faster.. I do disagree that planar/electro are automatically more detailed then all dynamics based on technology. The K1000 is very airy and sound great.. I still remeber listening to them with Prince. Never heard music presented like that before. This was in 07. The two most unique and different sounding dynamic headphones I have heard are the K1000/DT48.

 

[xaval]

With my self limited budget, re servicing, if I end up getting some kind of vintage Stax - most probably - how complex could it get in case one needs to replace "something"?

I'm spending a bit of time reading the Wiki (cheers for pointing me there Krmathis) just to familiarize myself with some of the "suspects" and such.

As for sound sig I suppose stats should work out like dynamics, so it's only natural that all these contraptions do sound different. That's why i didn't went into to many specific presentation features.

the tough "question" that arises me is something like this. Dynamics can be get to all sorts of pricing, from the most inexpensive to really expensive. Now stats seem to be always expensive to start with. I'm figuring, unless this was a great marketing manouvre, stats must sound "better" than your run of the mill dynamics.

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaval /img/forum/go_quote.gif the tough "question" that arises me is something like this. Dynamics can be get to all sorts of pricing, from the most inexpensive to really expensive. Now stats seem to be always expensive to start with. I'm figuring, unless this was a great marketing manouvre, stats must sound "better" than your run of the mill dynamics.

Depends on your definition of expensive. There are vintage 'stat rigs that you should be able to get under $100. Like the k-mart, radioshack, and magnavox 'stats. These are not bad. Lambdas they aint, but they do sound good.

And plenty that you should be able to get for under $200, and even more under $300.

 

[xaval]

Expensive in a sense that is quite easy to get a great dynamic sounding can for say 200€. Maybe I'm simply uneducated on non dynamics