[Heret1c]

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Different ears.

Well said!

 

 

[Freefallr4545]

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@alphaman, I have to respectfully disagree with you. I do not hear any issues with them becoming congested. They handle fast and complex passages in the hard rock/metal that I listen to just fine. I also do not experience a euphonic type midrange that some mention. It is slightly forward and sweet to me and carries a thicker sounding note but I do not associate this thicker sound with being slow. Everything sounds very clear with the new bi-flanges. Now if I put a tip on with a small sound hole/bore, then all bets are off. I have issues with those types of tips making any phone sound congested to me b/c it over accentuates the lower midrange.

Edit: I think something with a dryer midrange can give the perception of being clearer over a sweet midrange, due to a crisper sound. Not sure if a dryer midrange would be what you are looking for?

ShotgunShane: If Possible can you explain what a "dryer" Midrange is? And what a Sweet "Liquid" Midrange is? Do you consider the Shures Dry'? (535) Thanks my man
 

 

[Freefallr4545]

 
Quote:

Different ears.

I guess this is why I appreciate just about all of these IEMs. Of course we want better and better, but I like to smell the Coffee. Considering the Actual tones coming out of these IEMS is a miracle, and it has to be a very tough business as we are so picky impatient(Time and tips) and critical. I've heard the same types of criticisms with guitars over the years. "Ah Strats suck because they don't stay in tune too bright" blah blah blah
, Now those same guitars that sucked are selling for $50,000 because they still haven't figured out how they made such beautiful guitars back then

 

[shotgunshane]

Quote:

ShotgunShane: If Possible can you explain what a "dryer" Midrange is? And what a Sweet "Liquid" Midrange is? Do you consider the Shures Dry'? (535) Thanks my man
 

Here are some definitions from a sticky in the forums that I thought might help:
Dry - Lack of reverberation or delay as produced by a damped environment. May comes across as fine grained and lean. Opposite of Wet.
Cool- Moderately deficient in body and warmth, due to progressive attenuation of frequencies below about 150Hz
Fast - Good reproduction of rapid transients which increase the sense of realism and "snap".
Lush - Very Rich/Full
Warm - Good bass, adequate low frequencies, adequate fundamentals relative to harmonics. Not thin. Also excessive bass or mid bass. Also, pleasantly spacious, with adequate reverberation at low frequencies. Also see Rich, Round. Warm highs means sweet highs.
Wet - A reverberant sound, something with decay. Opposite of Dry.
 
 
I have not heard the 535's but I have heard the se420 and e2c's from Shure.  Since the Shure phones are midcentric, I would say their house sound leans more towards a sweet or lush type of midrange but nowhere to the extent the SM3 does, at least to me with my 2 Shure experiences.  To me a sweet midrange is thick in note with a slight warmness that is due to a slightly boosted lower midrange.  A dryer midrange would not have this same boost in the lower mids but more likely a boost in the upper mids/lower treble that gives a leaner less full/rich perception, which I think also gives a perception of greater speed and snap.
 
I hope this makes sense.  This is at least how I hear these terms.
 

 

[alphaman]

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I fail to see where you extrapolate fanboyism or buyers confirmation from my comments. I've not expressed undying love or exaggerated descriptions of the sound. Conversely you seem to be expressing your impressions as a black and white fact that the rest of us are too blinded to see or somehow understand, at least that is how this last post has come across to me. Possibly there are BA based phones that have problems with fast/complex tracks but I've yet to hear one. That's not to say they can't have mid bass bleed into the midrange that can obscure details, giving a feeling of congestion or some kind of multiple driver crossover issue, however I do not hear this in the sm3. Being someone who has never like bi or tri flange tips, the new sm3 bi-flange tips, for me, are not only comfortable but open up the sm3's to a clear and pretty decent dynamic range. Is it as good as my JVC's? No but that doesnt mean they aren't enjoyable.

Mine are the v1 but the owners of Earsonics have stated the sound is the same.

I don't care for (nor have ever used) the term 'fanboyism' -- it seems to convey that subjects are immature and/or unsophisticated, which is not (IMO) what SM3 users ('fans') are.
 
As far as 'extrapolation' ... I subjectively 'weighed' the totality of sentiment and opinion thus far conveyed in this thread.
 
As far as the comment ... "Possibly there are BA based phones that have problems with fast/complex tracks but I've yet to hear one. " I have (compared to IE8) ... and that BA is the SM3v2 I'm currently evaluating. But my SE530 (which are BA of course) are better than IE8s WRT this same subjective metric (tho' the 530s are pretty sub-par -- comparatively speaking and IMO of course -- in most other sonic depts.).
 
Bottom line: I don't think one can generalize sonic hard-and-fast 'rules' and attributes based on transducer type.
 
... to be cont. ... 
Shifting gears to my continued evaluation ... which is evolving and maturing based on: (a) further/additional listening using wider audio/music.video-type mix; (b) more cross-comparisons with my other IEMs; (c) SM3s further burning in.
 
Compared to my reference (IE8), the SM3v2's sound cleaner and larger (more fwd and bigger). These are good attributes. 
 
Alas, despite more burn-in time, no relief of congestion when the 'going gets tough' (i.e., dynamic+complex passages). SE530 > IE8 > SM3v2
 
Example of "dynamic+complex passage": 08:00-08:25 in Mahler Symp. 5
 

... to be cont. ... 
 
 

 

[oclafcire]

Quote:

Different ears.

I guess this is why I appreciate just about all of these IEMs. Of course we want better and better, but I like to smell the Coffee. Considering the Actual tones coming out of these IEMS is a miracle, and it has to be a very tough business as we are so picky impatient(Time and tips) and critical. I've heard the same types of criticisms with guitars over the years. "Ah Strats suck because they don't stay in tune too bright" blah blah blah
, Now those same guitars that sucked are selling for $50,000 because they still haven't figured out how they made such beautiful guitars back then

Well said. Truly we all need to smell the roses sometimes. I think about the first pair of headphones i used in my life. A clunky, old full size pair that made you look like a 1960s nuclear missile radar operator… the technology is progressing at such a breakneck pace, it's almost insane to think what we will be putting in our ears in 20 years. Maybe we won't be putting anything in our ears and music will be holographically projected by laser beams on sharks heads. And we will all be nitpicking the oscillation of the lasers and the species of sharks instead of just appreciating the awesome sound that is coming from frickin sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads.

 

[matto]

@alphaman, I disagree with how you think that dynamics are faster than BA's well unless that B.A was the low low tier IEM's
 
IMO for top tiers, a general rule would be that B.A's are much faster, reason I say this is due to the bands I listen to, Listen to Parkway Drive any of their songs on your IE8 then on a TF10/UM3x and tell me which one you think keeps up with the speed of the song much better? as in being able to keep up with the drums/vocals and most importantly for me is the bass, never heard IE8 though can't comment, but on the IE7, it felt as if it was struggling to keep up with the complex passages and the speed of the song, I'm also saying that it has better seperation when it comes to these kinds of songs though I'm not an audiophile so I can't comment on what exactly I'm trying to say with BAs vs Dynamics when listening to Parkway Drive, but 1 thing I'm sure off is that my TF10 are much MUCH MUCH faster than my MD's and IE7's I had.

 

[alphaman]

 

 

Matto: I'm not sure you know how I "think" --  -- but I  don't think I ever said dynamics are necessarily faster than BA (or vice versa). In fact, only a few posts ago I noted:
--
As far as the comment ... "Possibly there are BA based phones that have problems with fast/complex tracks but I've yet to hear one. " I have (compared to IE8) ... and that BA is the SM3v2 I'm currently evaluating. But my SE530 (which are BA of course) are better than IE8s WRT this same subjective metric (tho' the 530s are pretty sub-par -- comparatively speaking and IMO of course -- in most other sonic depts.).
--
I assume by "fast" you mean speed/pace/rhythm/timing and not the incorrect  definition of speed several head-fiers seem to have adopted after posts like this. (In fact, it was partially this semanitc SNAFU that led to my purchase of the SM3v2; I'll post on this in a dedicate thread soon.) If you are going to use kiteki's def. of "speed", then it would be better to think of what I mean by "fast" as "energy". 
 
FYI ...
I just did a bit more comparison tests (IE8 vs. SM3v2) ... the dynamic compression I noted earlier can readily be heard in snare drum attacks (on recordings with well-recorded drums/percussion. E.g., Sheffield Labs Drum Record). The SM3 seems to crush the dynamic transient; and like true compression, soft/quiet passages seem to be "turned up". 
 
Quote:

@alphaman, I disagree with how you think that dynamics are faster than BA's well unless that B.A was the low low tier IEM's
 
IMO for top tiers, a general rule would be that B.A's are much faster, reason I say this is due to the bands I listen to, Listen to Parkway Drive any of their songs on your IE8 then on a TF10/UM3x and tell me which one you think keeps up with the speed of the song much better? as in being able to keep up with the drums/vocals and most importantly for me is the bass, never heard IE8 though can't comment, but on the IE7, it felt as if it was struggling to keep up with the complex passages and the speed of the song, I'm also saying that it has better seperation when it comes to these kinds of songs though I'm not an audiophile so I can't comment on what exactly I'm trying to say with BAs vs Dynamics when listening to Parkway Drive, but 1 thing I'm sure off is that my TF10 are much MUCH MUCH faster than my MD's and IE7's I had.

 

[go0gle]

I just listened to James Holden's Balance 005, and this album is pretty unique because of the fast change b/w slow and fast BPM.. you can be down at 60 BPM taking it easy, and the next second your are up at 130 BPM not knowing what the fkc just happened.. again, very happy with how the SM3v2 presented that to me.. The more I listen to them, the more I like them 
 
 
 

 

[matto]

Quote:

 
Matto: I'm not sure you know how I "think" --  -- but I  don't think I ever said dynamics are necessarily faster than BA (or vice versa). In fact, only a few posts ago I noted:
--
As far as the comment ... "Possibly there are BA based phones that have problems with fast/complex tracks but I've yet to hear one. " I have (compared to IE8) ... and that BA is the SM3v2 I'm currently evaluating. But my SE530 (which are BA of course) are better than IE8s WRT this same subjective metric (tho' the 530s are pretty sub-par -- comparatively speaking and IMO of course -- in most other sonic depts.).
--
I assume by "fast" you mean speed/pace/rhythm/timing and not the incorrect  definition of speed several head-fiers seem to have adopted after posts like this. (In fact, it was partially this semanitc SNAFU that led to my purchase of the SM3v2; I'll post on this in a dedicate thread soon.) If you are going to use kiteki's def. of "speed", then it would be better to think of what I mean by "fast" as "energy". 
 
FYI ...
I just did a bit more comparison tests (IE8 vs. SM3v2) ... the dynamic compression I noted earlier can readily be heard in snare drum attacks (on recordings with well-recorded drums/percussion. E.g., Sheffield Labs Drum Record). The SM3 seems to crush the dynamic transient; and like true compression, soft/quiet passages seem to be "turned up". 
 

Ah sorry didn't come across that particular post, in that case my apologies
 
 

 

[Heret1c]

Austin Pwers' / Dr. Evil references are NEVER out of place! LOL
Quote:

Quote:

 
Quote:

Different ears.

I guess this is why I appreciate just about all of these IEMs. Of course we want better and better, but I like to smell the Coffee. Considering the Actual tones coming out of these IEMS is a miracle, and it has to be a very tough business as we are so picky impatient(Time and tips) and critical. I've heard the same types of criticisms with guitars over the years. "Ah Strats suck because they don't stay in tune too bright" blah blah blah
, Now those same guitars that sucked are selling for $50,000 because they still haven't figured out how they made such beautiful guitars back then

Well said. Truly we all need to smell the roses sometimes. I think about the first pair of headphones i used in my life. A clunky, old full size pair that made you look like a 1960s nuclear missile radar operator… the technology is progressing at such a breakneck pace, it's almost insane to think what we will be putting in our ears in 20 years. Maybe we won't be putting anything in our ears and music will be holographically projected by laser beams on sharks heads. And we will all be nitpicking the oscillation of the lasers and the species of sharks instead of just appreciating the awesome sound that is coming from frickin sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads.

 

 

[Inks]

Just noticed that the cable Earsonics provides has the same exact picture that's used for the Westone ES cable, so i'm going to assume they are the same. 

 

[shotgunshane]

Quote:

Bottom line: I don't think one can generalize sonic hard-and-fast 'rules' and attributes based on transducer type.
 
 
Alas, despite more burn-in time, no relief of congestion when the 'going gets tough' (i.e., dynamic+complex passages). SE530 > IE8 > SM3v2
 
Example of "dynamic+complex passage": 08:00-08:25 in Mahler Symp. 5

 
I said if there is a slow BA, I have not heard one.  I listened to your track and the sm3 had no problems keeping up and there was no congestion, though the jvc's displayed greater dynamics over the sm3 in that passage.
 
I would think something with this frequency response could sound pretty congested at times, no?  That appears to be a lot of mid bass overshadowing the lower midrange.
Edit: This is a genuine question (not meant to sound smart).  This is one of the reasons I never tried the IE8.  Just trying to understand where you are coming from.
 

 

[knubbe]

IE8s can be worn with a loose seal / shallow insertion which keeps the bass from overpowering the rest of the spectrum

 

[Freefallr4545]

Quote:

IE8s can be worn with a loose seal / shallow insertion which keeps the bass from overpowering the rest of the spectrum

 There is no Doubt in my mind whatsoever, that I would own these IE8's, It's just that Isolation is so important for me at this time sadly. I love my Westone 3's, and from what I understand I would love the IE8's. 
The Speed thing at least I know I don't understand the specifics, I feel my 535's are a little faster than my W3's (not by much) but reading the IEM speed post, I'm not the only one that has no clue as to what speed is. My simple definition is efficiency. (i'm the kind of person that does much better keeping things real simple)