[furyossa]

Hence the reason why many of us "double foam" either via two (2) full foams; one (1) full foam w/ one (1) donut foam; or simply two (2) donuts on top of one another. In some cases this will tame the treble (depending on the foam thickness and if full or donut) but will most likely increase the bass by eliminating that physical gap you speak of. Though there are those unique instances where certain individual's ear canal entries may simply be too wide even for "double" or "triple" foaming to work .

In those cases where the treble is fine but the bass is anemic the solution lays in using a single or double donut or a very thin full with a donut on top of that which will increase the bass with very little to no effect on the mid-range and treble. Do note that many of us have discovered (found) that thin foams are excellent at providing a better fit with the least effect on the sound signature above the bass line.

Another viable option is the use of a silicon ring w/ either a full or donut foam pulled over that.

Experimentation is the key here.

Although not known for deep chest-thumping, heart-pounding, impactful bass... earbuds when fitted correctly can and do offer fast, extremely detailed, open-sounding low bass that rivals IEMs, full-sized headphones, and even small monitor speakers. Of course, due to their small transducer/driver size they simply can't move air, like larger headphones or speakers, to create that slamming bass nor by their design (sitting outside the ear canal) can they create that sealed "rumbling bass friendly" resonating chamber as seen in IEMs. But what they do offer is an unique speaker-like presentation that is both intimate and airy while still being exciting and well-timbred.

Excellent analysis.
I will add my old post from DIY Earbuds thread, the first graph shows influence of full foam vs no foam.
Also silicone caps have an effect on sound

 

[Serge Bernamej]

Hence the reason why many of us "double foam" either via two (2) full foams; one (1) full foam w/ one (1) donut foam; or simply two (2) donuts on top of one another. In some cases this will tame the treble (depending on the foam thickness and if full or donut) but will most likely increase the bass by eliminating that physical gap you speak of. Though there are those unique instances where certain individual's ear canal entries may simply be too wide even for "double" or "triple" foaming to work .

In those cases where the treble is fine but the bass is anemic the solution lays in using a single or double donut or a very thin full with a donut on top of that which will increase the bass with very little to no effect on the mid-range and treble. Do note that many of us have discovered (found) that thin foams are excellent at providing a better fit with the least effect on the sound signature above the bass line.

Another viable option is the use of a silicon ring w/ either a full or donut foam pulled over that.

Experimentation is the key here.

Although not known for deep chest-thumping, heart-pounding, impactful bass... earbuds when fitted correctly can and do offer fast, extremely detailed, open-sounding low bass that rivals IEMs, full-sized headphones, and even small monitor speakers. Of course, due to their small transducer/driver size they simply can't move air, like larger headphones or speakers, to create that slamming bass nor by their design (sitting outside the ear canal) can they create that sealed "rumbling bass friendly" resonating chamber as seen in IEMs. But what they do offer is an unique speaker-like presentation that is both intimate and airy while still being exciting and well-timbred.

Beautiful comment.
I often add (not only with earbuds but headphones in general) a powered subwoofer.
I’ll let you guess the results

 

[furyossa]

Beautiful comment.
I often add (not only with earbuds but headphones in general) a powered subwoofer.
I’ll let you guess the results

The result

 

[phixion]

Yep I can agree with that. I always remember the earbuds in the 80s and the difference foam made, back then I wouldn't dream of using them without foam.

Sadly for me, earbuds just don't fit my ears well enough to get good sound. On the other hand, EarPods fit great and because of that give good bass.

Sure, it's not IEM level of bass, but they are pretty close and come with the convenience factor when I don't want isolating earphones.

 

[cappuchino]

Is it just me or earbuds don't sound as good if you've got small ears and use small eartips with your IEMs? At least the 15.4mm, MX500 shell ones that I've tried (MS16 an exception).

'Cause when I use the faceplate to "enlarge" my canal by pushing it downward, I get better bass response and fuller midrange. To do this, I just push the top of the shell downward using my fingers. I hope that makes sense. I've been doing that for some time now in short periods (sounds and seems weird, I know).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the buds I've tried are bad. It's just that there's like a *inserting random number* 15% improvement on SQ.

I'm guessing this is related to resonance and vibration which I still don't understand a thing about? Or just how much the driver makes contact with your ear and how much sound is "released" unobstructed? Or possibly that my ears would be better off with 14.8mm drivers?

 

[RikudouGoku]

Is it just me or earbuds don't sound as good if you've got small ears and use small eartips with your IEMs? At least the 15.4mm, MX500 shell ones that I've tried (MS16 an exception).

'Cause when I use the faceplate to "enlarge" my canal by pushing it downward, I get better bass response and fuller midrange. To do this, I just push the top of the shell downward using my fingers. I hope that makes sense. I've been doing that for some time now in short periods (sounds and seems weird, I know).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the buds I've tried are bad. It's just that there's like a *inserting random number* 15% improvement on SQ.

I'm guessing this is related to resonance and vibration which I still don't understand a thing about? Or just how much the driver makes contact with your ear and how much sound is "released" unobstructed? Or possibly that my ears would be better off with 14.8mm drivers?

If you got small ears, then the bell shapes that K uses should work for you.

 

[furyossa]

Yep I can agree with that. I always remember the earbuds in the 80s and the difference foam made, back then I wouldn't dream of using them without foam.

Sadly for me, earbuds just don't fit my ears well enough to get good sound. On the other hand, EarPods fit great and because of that give good bass.

Sure, it's not IEM level of bass, but they are pretty close and come with the convenience factor when I don't want isolating earphones.

Just think about this. Let's say you have a headphone, IEM and earbuds and all of these produce exactly the same SQ (ignore the price in this case)
Which of them he would use the most during the year? Which of them is the most comfortable for long listening?
99.9% answers will be earbuds.
Now another question arises: Which one would you use to listen outside?
Even with foam or silicone caps, earbuds will never be able to make a seal as headphones and especially IEM's.
That's why buds require more volume than other two which is not ideal for hearing.
All in all there is no ideal solution but only the smart way of using an adequate piece of gear that allows us to enjoy this hobby in a safe way

 

[furyossa]

Is it just me or earbuds don't sound as good if you've got small ears and use small eartips with your IEMs? At least the 15.4mm, MX500 shell ones that I've tried (MS16 an exception).

'Cause when I use the faceplate to "enlarge" my canal by pushing it downward, I get better bass response and fuller midrange. To do this, I just push the top of the shell downward using my fingers. I hope that makes sense. I've been doing that for some time now in short periods (sounds and seems weird, I know).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the buds I've tried are bad. It's just that there's like a *inserting random number* 15% improvement on SQ.

I'm guessing this is related to resonance and vibration which I still don't understand a thing about? Or just how much the driver makes contact with your ear and how much sound is "released" unobstructed? Or possibly that my ears would be better off with 14.8mm drivers?

That's why we have different driver size, different type of shell, different way of wearing and different accessories that enable better fit and comfort

 

[furyossa]

If you got small ears, then the bell shapes that K uses should work for you.

It would be really cool to have a white shell and black cover variant on sale

 

[Serge Bernamej]

Little update on Zen LL, @palestofwhite .
Regarding ergonomics and microphonics, the earbud is fantastic. Fit and comfort are 100%. Sound is smooth and full.
I have no complain about it, I just hope it will last as the upper cable part (the Y part) is so incredibly light and thin.

 

[40760]

Little update on Zen LL, @palestofwhite .
Regarding ergonomics and microphonics, the earbud is fantastic. Fit and comfort are 100%. Sound is smooth and full.
I have no complain about it, I just hope it will last as the upper cable part (the Y part) is so incredibly light and thin.

I think the SL version will be more durable, but definitely not as light because of the metal Y-split and heavier copper cable.

Zen LL has a good sound for the size. Retains most of the warmth of Zen 2.0 but also has more clarity. Bass is not that bad too.

I think if you take good care of it, there should not be any issues. Unless you pull really hard and the cable comes off the shell.

 

[Serge Bernamej]

I think the SL version will be more durable, but definitely not as light because of the metal Y-split and heavier copper cable.

Zen LL has a good sound for the size. Retains most of the warmth of Zen 2.0 but also has more clarity. Bass is not that bad too.

I think if you take good care of it, there should not be any issues. Unless you pull really hard and the cable comes off the shell.

Good news then. I will definitely not use it for an all night sleep earbud, because as you may know, sometimes the buds end up under us and in all sorts of positions. But clearly a great bud for day rest etc...

 

[40760]

Good news then. I will definitely not use it for an all night sleep earbud, because as you may know, sometimes the buds end up under us and in all sorts of position. But clearly a great bud for day rest etc...

I think it should be quite safe for sleep use. According to VE's owner, the creation of the LL was because he wanted a compact version of Zen that can be used for sleeping and lower impedance for mobile console gaming.

The detaching of the cables from the drivers usually happen when the cable gets caught by a closing door or something rougher.

 

[Serge Bernamej]

I think the SL version will be more durable, but definitely not as light because of the metal Y-split and heavier copper cable.

Zen LL has a good sound for the size. Retains most of the warmth of Zen 2.0 but also has more clarity. Bass is not that bad too.

I think if you take good care of it, there should not be any issues. Unless you pull really hard and the cable comes off the shell.

Hello, by the way I have the SL edition. It is extremely light. The Y part is weightless.

 

[Serge Bernamej]

I think it should be quite safe for sleep use. According to VE's owner, the creation of the LL was because he wanted a compact version of Zen that can be used for sleeping and lower impedance for mobile console gaming.

The detaching of the cables from the drivers usually happen when the cable gets caught by a closing door or something rougher.

hahaha, I love these buds too much to take the risk. Anyway I'll still lay down with them, just not for the whole night. Also the Zen LL is still 150 ohms, still benefits from an amplifier, which I kind of likes.