[mochill]

Just ordered the new toneking buds

 

[dissociativity]

Got the Jcally/Smabat JC10, and while the 'female poison' part may mean they're bright, first impressions are actually quite positive.
Nicer cable than the ep01, doesn't distort at full volume on my xiaomi mi max 3 (which has quite good stock audio output I may add) like the ep01 did, overall sounds higher resolution.

As a fun note, both jcally buds come with a lovely pleather case with a little loop for keychains and such, very high quality foamies, and some kind of ear clip attachment to help them stay on which I haven't tried.

I got the non-mmcx version, if these improve after the burn-in they may very well be worth paying the extra for mmcx.
The build and wire quality I'd say is a little worse than say, the moondrop nameless or nicehck me80, I seem to have misplaced (and also dislike the me80), but I'll compare them to the moondrop nameless later, which have quite good resolution with a similarly bright tuning.

I'm going to give them a burn in with some pink, then white noise for a while, I find 6 hours or so is plenty to make a reasonable improvement, where longer may steadily change it up when burn-in does actually change anything.

I also recieved the new cardboard/plastic boxed qian 69 in the mail today, those I'll give some burn-in before trying too, initial impressions say they're worse than my old qian 69 that came in a little metal tin, but we shall see if that's just a combination of foamies and long-term burn-in through use.

 

[davjac84]

Just ordered the new toneking buds

Really looking foreward to your impressions. I love Toneking! These new look cool, but I worry about comfort

 

[dissociativity]

after some white noise burn-in at full volume and some full foamies the new qian69 improved a lot, I'll compare em with my old set tomorrow after some more burn-in for a fairer comparison.

Need to be sure they're the same or at least very similar drivers to the ones that came in the aluminium tin.
I plan on re-cabling the qian 69, as I feel it's pretty mediocre cable is hindering it's wonderful sound, anyone got any impressions on that front?

 

[dissociativity]

okay, the jcally jc10 are warmer than the moondrop nameless, but lower fidelity, both the subbass and midbass is about as average as the moondrop nameless, but with lower resolution, the mids are more forward and warm, and the treble isn't actually as prevelant.

In hindsight I wouldn't call them particularly bright, brighter than the nicehck b40? of course, qian69? that too, but these are more mid-heavy buds.
I find rock/metal more enjoyable on these than the nameless, even if the nameless sound 'better' and certainly has more fidelity.
The BK2 would probably still be the better choice for a bud with MMCX, but if buying without MMCX for cheaper it feels decent enough value unlike the EC01 which was fairly mediocre quality and distorted easily.

What makes this bud actually worthwhile (at least without paying a premium for the mmcx), is the cable quality, which feels quite high, not BK2 high, but certainly above it's price high, the bud is metal, but the plastic strain relief, while feeling like it has a quality flexible plastic as material, seems to have small aesthetic problems that make it feel a little lower quality.
The included nice pleather bag, ear hooks, and quite high quality feeling foamies (sadly only one pair of full foamies) also are a plus.

In this price range I'd still buy the nicehck B40 or the qian 69 personally, even if I dislike the qian's cable, nothing has beat it's tuning thus far for me other than the b40 when I need the extra bass and mellow sound.

 

[rprodrigues]

...
Is the Yuin PK2 and PK1 originals still worth the cost?
...

Same question here...
There are still some (supposed) genuine Pk2 on Aliexpress.

I already have a DIY PK2 from Fengru on its way to me but I'd like to taste the genuine one.

 

[axhng]

Bought these for fun since my Jietu EMX500 MMCX was just rotting away with channel imbalance. So thought I could swap the drivers.
https://shopee.sg/product/168051912/2752145415

Wasn't expecting much, but they sound surprisingly good. Reminds me of the ME80, so still balanced sounding overall, just with a slightly smoother sound and a bit less upper mids and treble. Still good technicalities and details. Tonality is pretty nice too. I'm using them with full foams, and since the driver itself already has a layer of inner foam attached, i didn't use the extra foam they provided. 4.90 SGD for this is a steal if you are willing to DIY a little (since all you need is another DIY 3.5mm cable which is dirt cheap).

 

[cappuchino]

Hey guys! Need some help. Asked in the DIY Earbuds thread but I don't think its that active...

So...

Would this fit in an MX500 shell?

---

Here's my post on the DIY thread: HELP

 

[assassin10000]

Are there any other PK shell earbuds I should try?

Is the Yuin PK2 and PK1 originals still worth the cost? I've heard the DIY versions that are cheaper don't sound as good.

Same question here...
There are still some (supposed) genuine Pk2 on Aliexpress.

I already have a DIY PK2 from Fengru on its way to me but I'd like to taste the genuine one.

Not sure if they are still available but the pk16 or pk32 from willsound. There were a few from chitty on AliExpress but looks like they've transitioned most to a different and possibly poorer sounding shell.

The majority of the DIY PK1/PK2 ones just use the name to be more relevant when searching.

There are a few DIY PK1 150Ω redfilm ones that use the best DIY driver I've heard. It's pretty much one of my favorite drivers. They go for around $50-60 on AE.



I had an original Yuin PK2 and it was quite good. Not top tier but maybe lower to middle of the pack in the 2nd tier out of 5.

They have a different driver now afaik, I'm not sure how the new one sounds. There was a thread about it a while ago, I'm sure it can be found with a search.


The Yuin PK1 may also be very good or excellent but I haven't heard it.

 

[vygas]

Are there any other PK shell earbuds I should try? I'm enjoying the nicehck b40 immensely for listening in bed and sleeping, at low volumes, very cozy, sound profile is rather mellow, but with more subbass than I've heard on any other earbud thus far.
Is the Yuin PK2 and PK1 originals still worth the cost? I've heard the DIY versions that are cheaper don't sound as good.

I ordered the smabat m2 pro diy stuff, with the black gold driver, I considered the ST10s, but given I can try the fancy black gold driver for cheaper than the base st-10s, I bit the bullet there.
Will give impressions when it eventually arrives.

Supposedly my yincrow RW-100 and Memt T6 are in the country, as are the other jcally/smabat cheaper bud, the jc10, so I'll give impressions of those when they arrive, I have a feeling the jc10 will be far better than the ec01

The Jcally/Smabat EC01 are okay, they distort at high volumes however and are overall bright, with decent enough tuning, with foams there's a bit of midbass so it's not aneamic, I think the shell would be great for small ears, smaller than the PK shell, but I think I'll put a better driver in them in future so they sound better, as the current one just feels pretty mediocre to me.
There's definitely far better value buds around for the money, even if the EC01 come with a lovely soft earbud case, and have a rather nice feeling cable, feel and look reasonably premium.

Not sure if they are still available but the pk16 or pk32 from willsound. There were a few from chitty on AliExpress but looks like they've transitioned most to a different and possibly poorer sounding shell.

The majority of the DIY PK1/PK2 ones just use the name to be more relevant when searching.

There are a few DIY PK1 150Ω redfilm ones that use the best DIY driver I've heard. It's pretty much one of my favorite drivers. They go for around $50-60 on AE.



I had an original Yuin PK2 and it was quite good. Not top tier but maybe lower to middle of the pack in the 2nd tier out of 5.

They have a different driver now afaik, I'm not sure how the new one sounds. There was a thread about it a while ago, I'm sure it can be found with a search.


The Yuin PK1 may also be very good or excellent but I haven't heard it.

The newer PK3 was terrible, I own a newer PK3 which also has a new driver afaik and they are not worth it at all. I did re-cable it but it just polished a turd instead of making it shine. I assume the PK2 also has a similar story going from a good driver to a bad one so it's not worth it. If I were to recommend getting some of the PK type buds then I'd just go for the Nokia buds that Yuin sourced their drivers from (HS-23, HDD-1 and (maybe) the HDD-2) and just re-cable them.

 

[mochill]

Really looking foreward to your impressions. I love Toneking! These new look cool, but I worry about comfort

Will be my first toneking

 

[davjac84]

Will be my first toneking

Omg, and the first one you try is this "strange" and big bud hopefully they are their best buds yet

 

[lackOfInspiration]

Hello there,
I've been following this thread quietly for a moment now, while experimenting with earbuds on my own. I learned a lot reding about your journey guys so thank you very much (especially @assassin10000 and @Sam L and all of you who attempted to produce easy to read measurments)

I just came across this post which I found very interesting:

Ok, I mentioned in my previous post how the BK2 graph highlights some things about earbuds that seem really confusing to understand in relation to IEMs and headphones.

Context here

On Pinna Gain and Earbuds...

In case new users are not familiar with what "pinna gain" is, here's my explanation. The short description is along the lines of, "there should be a gain centered around 3khz because of how our ear hears sound." Without this gain, earphones will sound lifeless and flat. For the purposes of our earbuds discussion, it's worth digging a bit deeper into this pinna gain. Similar to pinna gain, is a concept of head gain where sound emanating from headphones pass through the ear even differently from IEMs and require a gain as well (different from IEMs, typically a bit higher in frequency). The differences between pinna and head gain are well understood and pretty obvious if you think about it -- iems, with their insertion into the ear canal, actually bypass the pinna which affects how we hear differently from headphones.

All this to say, this is why IEM curves are different from Headphone curves. But we already knew this.

One more thing to highlight with earbuds and target curves. There is also a pinna notch, typically around 10k but can occur anywhere between 6k to 15k. This notch is due to a combination of phase cancellation affects that occur as sound enters our ear. The impact of this phenomenon can result in some users having treble sensitivity -- these users' pinna notch may be much higher in the spectrum or less impactful to where they actually hear more treble because of less pinna cancellation. So when these users hear an IEM producing upper frequencies that are near a notch region (for other users) of the graph, it can be overwhelming and fatiguing. This can also explain why various dips and notches in measurements do not affect some users at all, while negatively affecting other users.

Back to Earbuds...

I'm left with these questions to explore.
- Should an earbud target mimic head gain over pinna gain?
- The BK2 has virtually no pinna gain, yet it sounds great in the upper mids. How?
- It there such a thing of an earbuds version of pinna gain, maybe we should coin the term, earbud gain?
- Since the bud rests outside of our ear canal how do earbud graphs interact with our pinna notch?
- Should there even be a pinna notch with earbuds?
- What about the Fletcher Munson contour? Does that even affect earbud users?

so many questions....

I have some thoughts on the matter that I think are worth sharing, as the questions you ask here have been bothering me for quite some time now.

The more I spend time with earbuds the more I'm convinced that earbuds should be tuned closer to IEMs, not much like Headphone (which seems to be the standard way of doing). Amoung all the earbuds I have (Ty 32Ohm, Auglamour RX1, Philips SHE3800, VE Monk +, VIdos (White and blue), Moondrop Shiroyuki & Nameless, Headroom MS16), solely ONE managed to sound tonally ok (TY 32Ohm). I found all the others to be strangely off, all in the same way, and so I started to investigate their frequency response.

The detail of the less than scientific method I ran through:

Spoiler: methodology

1. Finding measurments and interprete them:
Normally this not that hard, as most popular headphones and IEMs are very comonly measured by reviewers, via well-thought standardized method and instruments (GRAS for headphone, 711 couplers for IEMs etc..). The way IEMs and Headphones should be measured are widely discussed, you can easely find the pieces of information you need to understand measurments. Websites like Rtings, ScienceAudioReview, DIYAudioHeaven and many others are goldmines. But when it comes to cheap earbuds, I found myself with almost nothing to work with, except very wierd looking 711 measurments, like those found on Hiendportable and Audiobudget. I had a hard time extracting anything from those. My guess here was that apart from the massive 0-600khz shelf boost steming from the perfect seal, they were pretty good at showing the intrinsic earbud tuning if you forget the 7k peak of the coupler (In real life, there is of course your auditory canal resonating, but probably very very differently, we don't know yet..). In other words it gives me the transfere founction of the earbud alone in the 1k-7k region

2. Frequency sweeps are my best friends: correlate measurments with what I actually hear.
So I decided to rely on my ears and I spent hours and hours scanning my collection through frequency sweeps, trying to build an EQ settings that make me percieve every frequency equally loud. Obviously this requires a very precise volume matching, because as you noticed, a sort of Fletcher countour kicks in to make my life harder. Here is a dirty quick hand drawn compilation of what I found. I apologize for this terrible results presentation, but might still be easier to read than the filters values
Why do I EQ to a percieved flat? Because the EQ profile I get is just the opposite of the system [earbud + my ear + my auditory canal] transfere fonction. 711 type measurments allow me to approximately remove the earbud from the equation in the focused region (1-7k), so I'm left with my ear and canal transfere fonctions, which tell me how the earbud is interacting with my anatomy. We have those two reference cases to interprete this foounction:
- If it's flat with a sharp 7k spike, it's like IEMs, and therefore should be tuned alike (compensation for the lack of pinnea interaction in the forms of a massiv 3k mountain gently slopes down towards high frequencies)
- If it raughly ressembles the Head Related Founction in diffuse field, it means it's closer to headphones, and so should be tuned like them.
It's reasonable to think that we will fall in-between, just the fact that I had to consider the equal loudness contour means there is some sort of outer ear interaction.
I also looked at this this paper, asuming that earbuds interact with the inner part of the concha (cavum concha), I thought it could give me an idea of what to expect (it know it is naif, but my hole approach is utterly naïve...). Very interesting read if you want to dig the subject.
In the end this is what I found

• Massive 5khz peak which can be modelized by a [+8dB @5000hz Q=3.0] filter
• Important 9khz Narrow peak which a [+6 dB @900h0z Q=4.5] filter modelizes fairly enough
• small hill which slightly elevates the 2-6khz zone like a [+2.5db @4000hz Q=0.6] would.

3. Conclusion

Earbuds do interact with outer ear (probably mainly concha) in a significant manner. But you still need important compensation to match HRTF in diffuse field/studio conditions. As far as my ears are concerned, A massive boost at 3k and a narrow one att 7k are needed. Basically a standard Harman-like IEM tuning with a compensation for what I assume is concha resonance (deep 5k notch) would suit perfectly. TY 32Ohm is close to deliver such a tuning, with an elevated 2-7k zone and important 2.5K peak on the top of that. Far from perfect but fair enough. MS16 does something similar but still sounds bloated to me. Though now I can understand why it sounds open and realistic to some..
Bottom line is good earbuds should measure on 711 type couplers like smabat M2/M1/ST10/ME80/BK40/VE MONK 1.0 etc... We want this 2.5-4Khz elevation. And preferaby low frequency shelf dropping from 500-600hz, not 800 as can be seen nasty mellow monstruosity like the monk + (that said I am still able to enjoy them if I try hard enough)

Now @Sam L, if The BK2 sounds good to you it might just be because the fit is lose enough to elevate the 2-7khz area correctly, and your brain compensates for the peak being offset to 5Khz instead of 3. I think I can enjoy the RX1 for the same reason. I think brain compensation is often a dangerously underestimated phenomenon thats helps making things sound normal and average, hiding the defects. However I bet you could tell if a device matches your personal HRTF the second you hear it.

In the end I just don't understand why so many earbuds are tuned dead flat, even compensating marginally for the 5k peak, showing that designers are aware of it's existance. May be the idea that flat response suits nothing but speakers has not made it to everybody yet.

Again my tests are less than robust and my conclusions are not worth much at all.
Hope some might find this post helpfull though

 

[rprodrigues]

The majority of the DIY PK1/PK2 ones just use the name to be more relevant when searching.
...
There are a few DIY PK1 150Ω redfilm ones that use the best DIY driver I've heard. It's pretty much one of my favorite drivers. They go for around $50-60 on AE.
...
They have a different driver now afaik, I'm not sure how the new one sounds. There was a thread about it a while ago, I'm sure it can be found with a search.

Well, that changes everything for me. I really thought that the DIY versions were trying to mimic the genuine version.

It seems that the DIY PK1 150Ω drivers (as spare parts) are out of stock on Aliexpress but there is still a 32 Ohm version.

The following topic talks a little bit about supposed new drivers..
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new-yuin-pk2-fake.928616/

 

[rprodrigues]

I think the shozy xB has extra bass

How is their sound signature?
Do they lack treble?