DVD Audio High Resolution Digital Output?

[zdogg]

Here's a question I'm having trouble figuring out: do DVD-audio players allow for digital (coaxial or optical) output of high res (96khz/24bit or greater) 2 channel signals? I know that 5.1 channel high res digital output is not possible currently, but how about two channel (for headphone listening)?

I recently got a Pioneer DV578 from best buy to try out as a DVD audio transport with my Benchmark DAC1. I've got a bunch of DVD-A's for use in my car system, and I've been itching to hear them in two channel high res on my hd650's.

Since the benchmark doesn't have an indicator display to tell you the sampling rate of the incoming digital signal, I hooked the optical line out to my Sony integrated receiver (which displays the input sample rate up to 96k) to check what the pioneer was putting out. I noticed that with most of my DVD Audios (Yes fragile, REM's greatest hits, Metallica, etc), even though the on-TV display noted that they were 96/24, the sony display said 48khz. This is even after I went into the pioneer menu and turned off "downsampling". The exception was the AIX Records demo disc, which output 96khz (and sounded phenomenal).

Is this a problem specific to this player, or is it some copy protection scheme used by all players with DVD audio format, or specific DVD audio discs? I'd really like to get a player I can use as a functional high rez transport. Thanks for any help and sorry to be so long winded...

 

[RHMMMM]

No DVD-Audio content is output through the (coax and optical) digital outs, just the Dolby tracks and whatever else is on the disc that is not copy protected.

If you have firewire or denon-link or whatever other proprietary digital outs exist - SACD and DVD-A should pass through those, but of course your benchmark DAC doesn't have ports for that.

 

[zdogg]

That's a bummer...I guess the AIX Records demo disc has high rez DVD-audio content that must not be copy protected. I wonder if anyone builds or will build a DVD Audio transport that outputs 2 channel through the digital outs...

 

[sveli]

It's the software provider that determine if the hi-rez signal should be copy protected. Player downsamples the signal, usually to 48kHz.

Regards /Sven

 

[zdogg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sveli It's the software provider that determine if the hi-rez signal should be copy protected. Player downsamples the signal, usually to 48kHz. Regards /Sven

Thanks, appreciate the help. I actually talked (via email) with the president of AIX records who confirmed that this was possibly the case. He also mentioned that all AIX DVD audio discs allow for 96khz output (for the stereo 2channel tracks) via coax or toslink outs, so those discs work fine. I'll have to look into which other labels are allowing digital outputs.

By the way, do you know whether the bit rate is downgraded from 24 to 16? If not, at least there's some improvement over redbook when using an external dac.

 

[sveli]

No, I don’t think the "bits" are truncated.

The (new) Benchmark DAC upsamples all incoming signals to 110 kHz but its unfortunate there are copy protections.

Regards /Sven

 

[jhenderson010759]

I too purchased the 578 with the sole purpose of using it as a CD transport with hi-def digital output. During my pre-purchase investigations, I simply could not find any conclusive technical info indicating the specific conditions under which the 578 would produce bit streams at rates other than 44.1 kHz. Numerous threads lamented about how the 578 converted SACD streams into PCM, but since that translation can be lossless, I was unconcerned. Ever the optimist, I bought one anyway.

My 578 feeds a Grace 901, which does have visual clock indicators. Unforturnately, none of the media in my collection runs at any rate other than 44.1 kHz. I even purchased a couple of DVD-As, in hopes that they would operate at 88.2 or 96 kHz, to no avail. My instinct is that this is simply a media restriction. The 578 manual clearly indicates that playback of 88.1 and 96kHz media is possible.

Further, the 578 does not drive the digital output when playing SACDs at all. I had hoped that SACDs would at least be down-sampled to 96 or 88.1 kHz. But, only the D/As are used on the 578 when playing SACDs.

All-in-all, I like the 578 fine. But, it is not providing me access to high sample rate audio, as I'd hoped.

Where is the the high-sample rate media?

 

[zdogg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhenderson010759 My 578 feeds a Grace 901, which does have visual clock indicators. Unforturnately, none of the media in my collection runs at any rate other than 44.1 kHz. I even purchased a couple of DVD-As, in hopes that they would operate at 88.2 or 96 kHz, to no avail. My instinct is that this is simply a media restriction. The 578 manual clearly indicates that playback of 88.1 and 96kHz media is possible. Further, the 578 does not drive the digital output when playing SACDs at all. I had hoped that SACDs would at least be down-sampled to 96 or 88.1 kHz. But, only the D/As are used on the 578 when playing SACDs. All-in-all, I like the 578 fine. But, it is not providing me access to high sample rate audio, as I'd hoped. Where is the the high-sample rate media?

This has been my experience as well, except I've found a couple of discs (AIX records demo disc, and Motorhead Ace of Spades(!)) that do output a 96khz sample rate, so it is definitely possible but likely software limited.

SACD will always output only through the analog outputs even though it's converted to PCM first. Alex Peychev on Audiocircle mentions that he is working on a mod for the 578 to allow for digital transmission of the PCM-converted SACD signal so we could capitalize on SACD-->PCM-->External DAC (which may well sound better than many pure DSD players for all we know, depending on the quality of the DAC of course).

I returned my 578 because I found a floor model pioneer 563 for cheap; this is a "true dsd" machine. But it seems to behave identically to the 578 with regards to outputting downsampled rates with most DVD-As, again implying software is likely to blame. I'm bummed because I really wanted to use my DAC1 with high-res sources.

Also, make sure that "downsampling" is turned off in the options menu of either player, otherwise all output is mandatorily downsampled regardless.

 

[Mr.Radar]

If you need high rez digital output you should get a Chaintech AV-710, flash it to an Audiotrack Prodigy, and then get a copy of WinDVD 6 Platinum and enable 24/96 decoding. It doesn't have the same convenience as a stand-alone DVD player but it's currently the only way to get high rez DVD-A playback through a digital output (also, you can use the DirectWire to make copies of those discs using the AV-710 and Prodigy drivers and then burn them as 24/96 audio tracks to DVD-V discs enabling high rez output (if the player supports it)).

 

[zdogg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Radar If you need high rez digital output you should get a Chaintech AV-710, flash it to an Audiotrack Prodigy, and then get a copy of WinDVD 6 Platinum and enable 24/96 decoding.

Sounds interesting. I've got a chaintech, but I'm a bit of a newbie: how do you "flash it to an Audiotrack Prodigy"? If WinDVD platinum lets you output full res digital, I'd definitely get it and do what was necessary. Has anyone actually made this work yet?

By the way, I used your excellent guide, Mister Radar, to setup my AV710 when I was using the analog output, so thanks!

 

[lan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Radar get a copy of WinDVD 6 Platinum and enable 24/96 decoding. It doesn't have the same convenience as a stand-alone DVD player but it's currently the only way to get high rez DVD-A playback through a digital output

I've got to try this to see if it works.

 

[Mr.Radar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zdogg Sounds interesting. I've got a chaintech, but I'm a bit of a newbie: how do you "flash it to an Audiotrack Prodigy"?

Here's a quote from a PM I sent a while ago to another person
Quote:

Quote: On another topic, I see much mention of flashing the AV-710 to a Prodigy. As I plan to go the Benchmark1 DAC route in the next couple of months, can you tell me where the firmware and flash program can be located? I didn't see the info in a forum search. Check out this guide from the Envy24HT-S thread on AVSforum.com. Even though it was written for the Aureon it applies to the Chaintech. You can get the firmware and flashing software from here. Note that flashing the card will disable the analog outputs, though that shouldn't be a problem with a Benchmark DAC1. Quote: HOW TO CONVERT A TERRATEC AUREON SPACE/SKY INTO AN AUDIOTRAK PRODIGY 7.1 Terratec's drivers are dreadful in the long run, so it would be very useful to have the possibility to use Audiotrak's Prodigy 7.1 drivers, wich are much better, especially the newest version (wich installs two devices: one with sensaura support, the other one without). Although the drivers will install, the control panel won't run and the system will be unstable. This is due to a protection implemented in the drivers. There is a solution though: flashing the card's EEPROM chip. Don't run away yet, it's very simple actually... Here's how to flash the card: NOTE: You MUST set "PNP OS Installed" in your BIOS to "NO" before proceeding. This setting is recommended anyway. 1. Download archives containg the needed flashing utilities (refer to downloads), and extract their contents onto a win9x/DOS boot floppy or a bootable FAT partition containing DOS/Win9x system files. These utilities need to be run in real mode dos. 2. Restart the system form the floppy, or boot into win9x safe mode with command prompt only. Type: eeprw > dump.txt (press enter) then, press 9 followed by enter. NOTE: be sure to press 9, not i.e. 8, as that would overwrite the EEPROM with useless data. type: type dump.txt (press enter) have a look at the table. First numbers should be: 11 45 15 3B (Aureon Space) or 11 47 15 3B (Sky) or 45 53 49 33 (Prodigy 7.1). DO NOT ATTEMPT to flash the card if the EEPROM can not be read correctly. dump.txt will contain a backup of the card's EEPROM. 3. Run eeprwa just by typing "eeprwa", it will automatically flash the EEPROM using the data containded in eeprom.ini (taken form a Prodigy 7.1). If you want to flash back to Aureon Space firmware, rename eeprom_aureon_space.ini to eeprom.ini. Note: if the contents of the EEPROM somehow end up overwritten by grabage, no harm done (assuming that the card itself isn't damaged)! You can always retry the process! Now it's time to... 4.Install the latest Prodigy 7.1 driver and utilities the latest versions can be found in the downloads. That driver creates two devices: one called "Prodigy 7.1" and one called "Sensaura 3D". Sensaura is mainly for games, while Prodigy is for general purpose playback/recording. I'd also recommend selecting "use only default devices". READ THE MANUAL!!! And if something goes wrong and the card'll get trashed, don't blame me (had to say that)! And please, don't perform this if you don't know what command line is. Ask someone more experienced for help!

Quote:

If WinDVD platinum lets you output full res digital, I'd definitely get it and do what was necessary. Has anyone actually made this work yet?

With the Prodigy drivers configured for 96KHz and WinDVD set for 24/96 playback you should be able to get bit perfect high res output up to stereo 24/96. 24/192 will not work because the SPDIF specification doesn't support it and multichannel will not work because, again, SPDIF doesn't support uncompressed mulitchannel audio.

Quote:

By the way, I used your excellent guide, Mister Radar, to setup my AV710 when I was using the analog output, so thanks!

I'm glad it helped you (and I hope this post has helped you too).

 

[zdogg]

Thanks a lot for the detailed instructions! I don't yet have WinDVD platinum, so I may wait for someone else to try the above technique and see if everything works before I do it myself.