DVD-A vs SACD?
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andrzejpw

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Quote:

Originally posted by markl
HDCD and regular Redbook CD live side-by side, along with JVC's XRCD, and in olden time Mobile Fidelity's Gold CDs. There's plenty of room for any format that will play on a universal machine.

Mark


markl: I think this is a bit different. XRCD and HDCD weren't designed to replace cds. Quite simply they were made so that a few people who "were aware" could get a slight improvement in sound quality. SACD/DVD-A want to be massive. Sony wants an SACD player in every home. Sony wants this as a replacement for cds. HDCD/XRCD complemented cds.
 
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Dusty Chalk

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Quote:

Originally posted by andrzejpw
Hmm, do you really think the two formats can survive, side by side? I mean, what incentive is there to support 2 formats, which pretty much have the same goal?


Well, for one thing -- catalog. If you like the Stones, you pretty much have to get an SACD player to listen to the higher res versions of their albums. OTOH, if you're a Queen fan (for example) you owe it to yourself to get a DVD-A player. If you're not sure yet (e.g. Pink Floyd fan), or if you're a fan of a lot of different types of music, you should probably either get a universal player (which will be par for the course in a year or two if things keep going the way they're going). Or one of each. I already have a cheap-but-good SACD player (Sony SCD-CE775), and intend to get either a universal player (Pioneer?) or a cheap-but-good DVD-A player (don't know of one yet that meets my criteria).

This is unlike any other format war -- the difference in these two formats are pretty much format, I.E., software, but the hardware is pretty much the same (not exactly, SACD purists will point out that the DSD data stream should go through a DSD-capable DAC, but other than that...).

Previous format wars weren't physically compatible, I know of no precedent for today's "universal" players.
 
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The entire question concerning these new formats is currently up in the air, but word is that it's very likely that the Beatles catalog will soon be issued on DVD-A. If that does happen, it will change the profile of DVD-A significantly.
 
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andrzejpw

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If the Beatles came out on dvd-a. . . that would really shake the SACD camp up. This I don't like. Sure, there are 2 formats. But WHY have 2 formats? This isn't a coke/pepsi debate. For a music fan, you would need both formats, and, subsequently, both formats. Will dual format players cut it? I mean, this is what I don't understand: why? Think of VHS and betamax(well, I can't. That was before my time.
). Most people didn't use both. VHS won, and beta lost. Why won't they let the same happen here?
 
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markl

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andrzejpw,
Buy a universal player and you needn't worry which h-rez format your favorite artist is released on.

Beagle said:
Quote:

Track records of "universal" players show they do a half-assed job with some of the formats they are designed to play. Who needs that?


And this is based on what, a sample size of 5 or so players currently available from mass-market consumer-oriented non-audiophile companies. A bit early to make this pronouncement, don't you think? (And how many universal players have you heard? What are you basing this statement on?)

Does a DVD player or a receiver offer worse sound quality on Dolby Pro Logic because it now offers Dolby Pro Logic 2? Does a receiver's processor suddenly go all crappy on Dolby Digital because they've added the ability to decode DTS? Does your receiver's chipset suddenly suck on DTS material because it can now process DTS-ES?

No, it doesn't. It's the same chipset that's processing the digital data being read off the digital media. The only thing different is it's ability to decode the new data type. The digital signal still passes through all the same components both digital and analog.

There aren't seprate chipsets for every single format your receiver/DVD player can uncode. If there was, they'd be quite expensive!

Mark
 
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andrzejpw

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Markl: my question is, why should I NEED to buy a universal player? They don't sell any VCRs that play VHS and betamax. . . why should SACD and DVD-A both live?
 
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markl

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Because standing up close to a mass-produced cheaply-made poster of a Picasso is not the same as having the real thing in your house right before your own naked eyes.

The hi-rez formats offer you this possibility. A universal player can present them both to you in the highest *digital* standard currently available to the human race.

I don't care which format succeeds any more than I care whether Dolby Digital or DTS becomes the dominant format for DVD sound. I have a player and a receiver that can play them both back. Either one is better than Dolby Surround as reproduced by today's VCRs. I'm utterly neutral so long as I end up with something better. But again, you have made the assumption that both formats cannot exist side-by-side. I argue they can.

Mark
 
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andrzejpw

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Markl: I'm not arguing with the fact that hi-rez formats exist. I really hope that they flourish, and become integrated into the mainstream. I'm just asking: why should both of them exist? Look at it this way: right now, the customer buys a cd, and it plays in his cd player. He doesn't even think about it. Do you think Joe Blow will really want to care whether he's buying an SACD or a DVD-A?
 
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markl

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andrze,
This is the same question the vinyl junkie faced 20 years ago before the introduction of the CD. Yet the Redbook CD thrived, despite the superiority of the analog LP.

You and I both know (don't we???) that the SACD/DVD-A version of the same music sounds better than the CD version of the same music.

That is the justification for the existence of either new format. They are *both* better than plain old CD...

If plain old CD is "good enough" for you, you'll have a hard time accepting either of the new formats.

Mark
 
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kerelybonto

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markl, andrzejpw means why should both formats survive as opposed to only one. And the obvious answer is they shouldn't. And they won't. Universal players won't be around in a few more years -- they're a temporary solution to a temporary problem. Guess which vera vera big consumer electronics manufacturer is never going to make an univeral player. Ah yes. Sony.

A couple reasons for SACD over DVD-A:
  1. SACDs will eventually be burnable and DVD-As will not.
  2. Sony will not ever make a DVD-A player.
  3. SONY Music will not ever release a DVD-A title.
  4. No one cares about either format and Sony is the only company with the resources to convince/force people to adopt one.
A little anecdote. I was at some friends' place last night for a party. I was helping set up before things got started and one of my friends put in a mix disc burnt from downloaded MP3s. For some reason hip-hop MP3s are always ripped very poorly, so even after a number of Miller High Lifes, the atrocious sound quality was obvious. I commented about it, and my friends were like, "That's how the music sounds everywhere. No one I know even buys CDs anymore."

Probably more true for college students than other demographics, but fairly accurate nevertheless. Point is, not all that many people care about the difference between the hi-rez formats and normal CD audio. I don't think either SACD or DVD-A will replace CD unless the equipment manufacturers and music labels force the change.

I know I had something else important to say, but I forgot it.

kerely
 
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Quote:

# Sony will not ever make a DVD-A player.# SONY Music will not ever release a DVD-A title.


Do you want to place a bet on this?? Still, erither way, why should I care if I have a commonly-available universal player?

Mark
 
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Quote:

Originally posted by kerelybonto
Universal players won't be around in a few more years -- they're a temporary solution to a temporary problem.

A little anecdote. I was at some friends' place last night for a party. I was helping set up before things got started and one of my friends put in a mix disc burnt from downloaded MP3s. For some reason hip-hop MP3s are always ripped very poorly, so even after a number of Miller High Lifes, the atrocious sound quality was obvious. I commented about it, and my friends were like, "That's how the music sounds everywhere. No one I know even buys CDs anymore."

I don't think either SACD or DVD-A will replace CD unless the equipment manufacturers and music labels force the change.


kerely



Kerely,

You hit the nail right on the head! The average Joe couldn't give a rat's ass about hi-rez format. They're happy with their mp3s and they think they sound fine. Both SACD and DVD-A will have a hard time penetrating the consumer market because consumers don't see a need to replace their CD catalog and they don't see the hi-rez formats as offering the kinds of incentives to switch as CDs did over LPs.

Say what you may about LPs sounding better than CDs, it's not true and has never been true for the average Joe. The average Joe HEARD a MAJOR improvement in sound quality of a CD vs the LP. The CD offered the following benefits, which were sufficient enough to cause the consumers to abandon their LPs:

1. Cleaner sound - The CD did away with the scratchiness and noise of the record player

2. Convenience - The CD was smaller, easier to handle and didn't require getting up and changing sides. CD players also came with remote controls. You could now access any track on a whim. You could shuffle playback, etc.

3. Tapes made from CDs sounded better. Much better.

4. Vast improvement in dynamic range of the music that an average Joe could hear.

All these things combined made for a very tempting case for switching. The hi-rez formats can't make that case. The only thing they got going for them is multi-channel, but I'm not sure that's enough. I don't think most consumers want a 5 speaker system in their homes (home theaters have not penetrated every household like stereo systems have), and I don't think they care enough to jump on that bandwagon.
 
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Dusty Chalk

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Quote:

Originally posted by andrzejpw
Markl: my question is, why should I NEED to buy a universal player? They don't sell any VCRs that play VHS and betamax. . . why should SACD and DVD-A both live?


Why not? Quote:

Originally posted by andrzejpw
Look at it this way: right now, the customer buys a cd, and it plays in his cd player. He doesn't even think about it. Do you think Joe Blow will really want to care whether he's buying an SACD or a DVD-A?


But that's exactly the point. The only difference -- at a "most consumers" level -- is the software that tells the laser reader where to go, and what to do with the data once it gets it off the disk. In the near future, most players will be universal (assuming one of the formats doesn't take a nosedive and get formally dumped), and the average consumer won't have to care which one he gets, he only has to care whether or not he wants Beatles or Pink Floyd. Quote:

Originally posted by kerelybonto [*]Sony will not ever make a DVD-A player.


Actually, they already did. (At least, IIRC, they did in the UK. And it was not SACD compatible.)
 
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I really do hope SACD makes it.I am not,however,happy about the way this format was introduced and the way it has been slow in reaching full steam,if it has done so yet.I also have a adopted a new policy of not buying single layer SACDs.I will not have six different digital copies and five anolog copies of "Kind of Blue".I will not buy a single layer disc,period.I bought some early on but no more.I have written many emails to Sony Music about this and their response was that eventually most new discs would be released as a dual layer offering.I have heard this since the CES show earlier in the year.the Rolling Stones hybrid releases are a big step in the right direction.

I had a chance in the early days of the hi-rez formats to audition both DVD-A and SACD.At first I thought DVD-A was superior.This was before the problems with bass management and watermarking killed DVD-A in it's tracks.The DVD-A hardware has been slow to hit the streets and pricey as well.Sony and Philips have made huge commitments to lower cost gear and widespead availabilty of that gear.there are at least 10 new SACD players(that I know of) on the horizon from manufacturers such as Musical Fidelity,Arcam,Roksan,NAD, and of course Philips and Sony.Hopefully Sony will open it's vast music catalog and release some real gems with the stunning sound quality of the Stones releases.

I don't buy the arguments that we should not support the format based on the notion the music should be released first and we don't owe Sony and Philips our business.If you guys read any of the press releases from 1998-1999 when SACD was being introduced,you would have read that both companies were taking a "wait and see" approach.they want to see if enough of us would adopt the format and buy the music before making a large,unwise financial commitment.I think that approach to be reasonable.The slow deployment has actually hepled generate good word-of-mouth without huge ad campaigns.I don't like the trickle-release policy but it has worked to great effect.I also think it wise that companies release hardware in multiple format configurations.A player that has Progressive-Scan DVD playback, CDR,MP3 and SACD capabilities is much more appealing to the average consumer,and audiophile, than a SACD only player.I think when the dust clears we will all look back on this and see this as the model for the way things like format updates and niche market products will introduced.This is not like DVD video.That was an easy sell to the average Joe.
 
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andrzejpw

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Quote:

Why not?


Because there's no need for both. Why have two formats if they both do the same thing?

Now: about the burnable SACD thing:
How? Where?
 
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