Dragonfly COBALT vs.............Discussions
Aug 5, 2019 at 4:11 PM Post #301 of 1,192
Well, did yo check the measurements, both in idle and loaded state? Yes, the DFC consumes MORE power than DFR, it‘s a very simple measurement, and absolutely obective.

You don‘t see that difference? Let me explain why. DFR consumes 40mA at idle, while DFC is draining 60mA. Both values are indeed low. Nevertheless DFC is consuming 50% more. So, why don‘t you see a difference? Probably because you are using it with an average smartphone, that is equipped with a 2500-4000mAh battery. So even if you keep the dongle attached to the phone, it will drain it in 50 to 100 hours. Before that ever happens, your phone will be long recharged anyway, it‘s practically not possible to easily see that difference.

In my use case, on the other hand, I‘m using a simple ipod touch, in order to keep it as mobile as possible. That one has a battery of less than 1000mAh. If I keep even a DFR with its 40mA attached permanently, the battery is empty in a less than a day. An advertised lower power consumption of some components on DFC, leading me to believe the whole device is consuming less power, is an important differentiator. Turns out to be only marketing though....

Btw, you are putting words into my mouth that I never said. Where exactly did I say DFC sounds worse than DFR?

Why would I keep it permanently attached? I plug it in only when I want to listen to music. But I will sit and listen for hours. That’s how I know it uses less battery than my Red did. The first day I bought the Cobalt, all I did was A&B it against my Red for hours. Not to mention that I had the Red for years and have now had the Cobalt for nearly a month. I don’t need measurements to tell me which drains my iPhone faster. In real world usage, it’s the Red.

And it’s icing on the cake that the Cobalt also sounds smoother, more detailed, and with a noticeably larger soundstage than the Red, which is why I sold my Red and have no regrets.

You didn’t say the Cobalt sounds worse than the Red, but you tried to completely discount my opinion that it sounds better, which implies you disagree. All you had to do was state your opinion, not try to discredit mine. This is Head-Fi and people come here to seek people’s opinions on sound. That’s the whole point of these forums. Discounting an opinion as subjective from someone who was an early adopter of new technology is simply rude. How the hell else can one describe sound without it being subjective?
 
Last edited:
Aug 5, 2019 at 4:26 PM Post #302 of 1,192
Why would I keep it permanently attached? I plug it in only when I want to listen to music. But I will sit and listen for hours. That’s how I know it uses less battery than my Red did. The first day I bought the Cobalt, all I did was A&B it against my Red for hours. Not to mention that I had the Red for years and have now had the Cobalt for nearly a month. I don’t need measurements to tell me which drains my iPhone faster. In real world usage, it’s the Red.

And it’s icing on the cake that the Cobalt also sounds smoother, more detailed, and with a noticeably larger soundstage than the Red, which is why I sold my Red and have no regrets.

You didn’t say the Cobalt sounds worse than the Red, but you tried to completely discount my opinion that it sounds better, which implies you disagree. All you had to do was state your opinion, not try to discredit mine. This is Head-Fi and people come here to seek people’s opinions on sound. That’s the whole point of these forums. Discounting an opinion as subjective from someone who was an early adopter of new technology is simply rude. How the hell else can one describe sound without it being subjective?


I've sent my DFC back, not because its not the best dragon fly, but instead based on my usage. I use the DF on short commutes by bus, train and or when i'm walking between meetings in town usually with IEMs, where the listening environment is less the perfect and i decided i wasnt really hearing the benefits over the DFR. At home or on longer journey's where i'm happy to travel or listen to my Stellias, the Hugo2 offers just enough portability and massive but unsurprising for the price tag, step up in performance especially with the full size HPs which love to scale.

I spent a good 2 weeks listening to the DFC in my (quiet) office (i really hope amazon's bots arent reading this :wink: ), did quite a bit of b2b comparison and for me the DFC is clearly better than the DFR in pretty much every aspect of its performance. i found the sound improvements to be pretty much exactly as @Hifiearspeakers summed it up.

Obvs its not twice as good, but as you'd expect for this sort of premium, it is maybe 10-15% better and yes i know using percentages is arbitrary in assessing hifi unless you've carried out 100 point test :wink:, but its the best way i can illustrate/sum-up the improvement. And that 15-20% is made up of 1-5% improvements in lots of areas of its performance. And that much extra performance makes it objectively good value to me, even though my personal preferences meant i couldnt justify keeping it over the red.
 
Aug 5, 2019 at 4:29 PM Post #303 of 1,192
Why would I keep it permanently attached? I plug it in only when I want to listen to music. But I will sit and listen for hours. That’s how I know it uses less battery than my Red did. The first day I bought the Cobalt, all I did was A&B it against my Red for hours. Not to mention that I had the Red for years and have now had the Cobalt for nearly a month. I don’t need measurements to tell me which drains my iPhone faster. In real world usage, it’s the Red.

And it’s icing on the cake that the Cobalt also sounds smoother, more detailed, and with a noticeably larger soundstage than the Red, which is why I sold my Red and have no regrets.

You didn’t say the Cobalt sounds worse than the Red, but you tried to completely discount my opinion that it sounds better, which implies you disagree. All you had to do was state your opinion, not try to discredit mine. This is Head-Fi and people come here to seek people’s opinions on sound. That’s the whole point of these forums. Discounting an opinion as subjective from someone who was an early adopter of new technology is simply rude. How the hell else can one describe sound without it being subjective?

Ok, no point in discussing with you that matter further, you seem to have your opinion and seem to stick to that, no numbers and no explanations will change that. Good you are happy with your new purchase.

And please read my words as they are, do not add any hidden agenda into them which just isn‘t there. I said your opinion is subjective, and that‘s why I cannot and will not engage into discussions about that, I never said you were wrong.

Why keeping the dongle permanently attached? I can give you a simple answer. I‘m using an ipod touch with a DFR as a dap, only for this purpose. The DFR is semi-permanently attached to the ipod with a velcro tape. It‘s a pain in the &%€ to have to detach/reattach it to the CCK, would be much nicer being able to keep it permanently attached...
 
Last edited:
Aug 5, 2019 at 4:40 PM Post #304 of 1,192
But guys,

It's BLUE!!!!
 
Aug 5, 2019 at 4:48 PM Post #305 of 1,192
Ok, no point in discussing with you that matter further, you seem to have your opinion and seem to stick to that, no numbers and no explanations will change that. Good you are happy with your new purchase.

And please read my words as they are, do not add any hidden agenda into them which just isn‘t there. I said your opinion is subjective, and that‘s why I cannot and will not engage into discussions about that, I never said you were wrong.

Why keeping the dongle permanently attached? I can give you a simple answer. I‘m using an ipod touch with a DFR as a dap, only for this purpose. The DFR is semi-permanently attached to the ipod with a velcro tape. It‘s a pain in the &%€ to have to detach/reattach it to the CCK, would be much nicer being able to keep it permanently attached...

Got it. Well I’ve never used any of the Dragonflies as a permanent attachment so I can’t comment on their nominal power consumption. Maybe it is worse than the Red.​
 
Aug 5, 2019 at 4:52 PM Post #306 of 1,192
I've sent my DFC back, not because its not the best dragon fly, but instead based on my usage. I use the DF on short commutes by bus, train and or when i'm walking between meetings in town usually with IEMs, where the listening environment is less the perfect and i decided i wasnt really hearing the benefits over the DFR. At home or on longer journey's where i'm happy to travel or listen to my Stellias, the Hugo2 offers just enough portability and massive but unsurprising for the price tag, step up in performance especially with the full size HPs which love to scale.

I spent a good 2 weeks listening to the DFC in my (quiet) office (i really hope amazon's bots arent reading this :wink: ), did quite a bit of b2b comparison and for me the DFC is clearly better than the DFR in pretty much every aspect of its performance. i found the sound improvements to be pretty much exactly as @Hifiearspeakers summed it up.

Obvs its not twice as good, but as you'd expect for this sort of premium, it is maybe 10-15% better and yes i know using percentages is arbitrary in assessing hifi unless you've carried out 100 point test :wink:, but its the best way i can illustrate/sum-up the improvement. And that 15-20% is made up of 1-5% improvements in lots of areas of its performance. And that much extra performance makes it objectively good value to me, even though my personal preferences meant i couldnt justify keeping it over the red.

The Hugo 2 is an awesome dac/amp. I would never choose the Cobalt over it. And if I owned a Hugo 2, I wouldn’t buy a Cobalt either.
 
Aug 5, 2019 at 4:52 PM Post #307 of 1,192
The thing is that AQ and every audio company can create much better products compared with the one they sell...Take example of their hi end product that every company has.

I wish i had the money to buy every DFC that is out there. But i dont want to be the victim of marketing that already has in mind the DFC when it starts selling DFR.

Companies in order to survive have to keep their sales high and continuous. What makes me agry is to see reviewers that get for free products and they say that their review is based on their honest opinion. And out out the blue , all the time , their opinion is positive to the product...i just hate that.

And what makes me angry is people running buying every new product because the have connected new=better. New is different. To what degree is better , people will decide , not reviewers , not marketing , not shinny colours

My English in not native language but i try....
 
Last edited:
Aug 5, 2019 at 5:02 PM Post #308 of 1,192
The thing is that AQ and every audio company can create much better products compared with the one they sell...Take example of their hi end product that every company has.

I wish i had the money to buy every DFC that is out there. But i dont want to be the victim of marketing that already has in mind the DFC when it starts selling DFR.

Companies in order to survive have to keep their sales high and continuous. What makes me agry is to see reviewers that get for free products and they say that their review is based on their honest opinion. And out out the blue , all the time , their opinion is positive to the product...i just hate that.

And what makes me angry is people running buying every new product because the have connected new=better. New is different. To what degree is better , people will decide , not reviewers , not marketing , not shinny colours

My English in not native language but i try....

That’s a very fair point! And I share the same opinion. You just need to understand that 99% of the people in here are not paid, professional reviewers. I joined Head-Fi for that very reason. I want to hear what normal, every day people have to say about the new equipment I want to buy. When I read a professional review, I always take it with a grain of salt.
 
Aug 5, 2019 at 7:40 PM Post #310 of 1,192
I haven't done a side-by-side comparison of Red and Cobalt. I sold my Red last year. I bought the Cobalt this year based on the Darko.com review. When I got the COBALT, I noticed the treble region was less etched sounding. The presentation was more recessed in the mids rather than so "in your face" as with Red, as per my memory. I have no idea why the poor objective tests resulted from Archimago? How could better DAC chips and better processor make COBALT sound inferior....or no better? Could the slow roll off filter be more palatable to my ears? Could Archimago have had a bad sample? The ESS SABRE 9018 in the RED had the classic SABRE treble glare that I just couldn't take. This is why I ultimately sold my RED off. Cobalt doesn't seem to have that same glare to my ears.
 
Last edited:
Aug 5, 2019 at 9:20 PM Post #313 of 1,192
I haven't done a side-by-side comparison of Red and Cobalt. I sold my Red last year. I bought the Cobalt this year based on the Darko.com review. When I got the COBALT, I noticed the treble region was less etched sounding. The presentation was more recessed in the mids rather than so "in your face" as with Red, as per my memory. I have no idea why the poor objective tests resulted from Archimago? How could better DAC chips and better processor make COBALT sound inferior....or no better? Could the slow roll off filter be more palatable to my ears? Could Archimago have had a bad sample? The ESS SABRE 9018 in the RED had the classic SABRE treble glare that I just couldn't take. This is why I ultimately sold my RED off. Cobalt doesn't seem to have that same glare to my ears.

I also hear the mid pushed back a little, i think it's what could be contributing to the more spacious sound but it doesn't show on measurements.
 
Aug 6, 2019 at 1:52 AM Post #315 of 1,192
The bad measurements from Archimago have 2 different root causes, and you might not be affected by neither of them.

First problem, a very severe one, is clipping. You will never hear this, as you will never run DFC at 100% volume with Headphones. So it‘s rather a bad design/ugly, but has almost no real live impact.

The second problem is with a filter. Slow roll-off minimum phase filter never measures well. It‘s just too weak a filter. It just has too many problems, frequency roll-off, aliasing and so on. No way it can measure as good as other filters. Technically speaking, the brickwall filter used in the original Dragonfly 1.2 is the best.

But people are strange beings. We do not always prefer things that are technically better. Many people do love that bit of softening at very high frequencies, and so on.

Anyway, it was a very bold decision of AQ to implement this filter as a default and not switchable one, as it was clear it will measure badly. No other manufacturer has ever done this...

The problems I see with DFC are of a different sort, all related to that marketing decisions and communication.

1. Advertisings makes you believe DFC is consuming less power. It is not.
2. Already mentioned clipping. This should never happen and might affect the performance when used as DAC only at the highest volume setting (recommendation from AQ)
3. Filtering. Why the hell do they implement a new filter in every generation, and only one of them? Why not making them switchable? The HW is perfectly capable of supporting all those filters, but they intentionally implement only one and a different one in every product generation. Of course they will sound differently, as the filters do affect sound. So why not offer end user a choice? Many complain DFR is too harsh in treble. Slow roll-off filter would easily solve this, as it does on DFC
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top