[Mhog55]

My favorite cans to listen to fast rock - AC DC Judas Priest, are still my HD 25s. They make this type of music get my adrenaline flowing, at times to where I feel like running through a sheet rock wall, Daniel Craig 007 style. I know this sort of thing isn't for everyone, but straight adrenaline is the best drug rush in the world. Don't ask me how I know. My youth was mostly ill advised.
These particular cans have zero Soundstage whatsoever. I have cans that have better width, depth, etc., such as the Beoplay H6 and Hifiman Edition S. I also owned the Hifiman He400s once upon a time. For whatever reason, the HD 25s just do rock better. Don't get me wrong, it also sounds great on my other cans, otherwise I wouldn't keep them. The HD 25s handle guitar distortion like a champ. Snare and kick drums are straight in your face with such a liveliness it's superb.
So I got to thinking, maybe it's the lack of Soundstage that makes these so great with rock, or maybe I simply don't prefer it with rock? They image as good, if not better than the other two sets, so maybe I simply appreciate imagining over Soundstage? I really don't know. I'm still relatively new to this.
On a side note, can anyone remove the drivers from the HD 25 and put them in a different set of cans? I literally hate everything else about them. Would this run the risk of killing the sound?

 

[buke9]

The thing is if you like your cans why get any others?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

My favorite cans to listen to fast rock - AC DC Judas Priest, are still my HD 25s. They make this type of music get my adrenaline flowing, at times to where I feel like running through a sheet rock wall, Daniel Craig 007 style. I know this sort of thing isn't for everyone, but straight adrenaline is the best drug rush in the world. Don't ask me how I know. My youth was mostly ill advised.
These particular cans have zero Soundstage whatsoever. I have cans that have better width, depth, etc., such as the Beoplay H6 and Hifiman Edition S. I also owned the Hifiman He400s once upon a time. For whatever reason, the HD 25s just do rock better. Don't get me wrong, it also sounds great on my other cans, otherwise I wouldn't keep them. The HD 25s handle guitar distortion like a champ. Snare and kick drums are straight in your face with such a liveliness it's superb.
So I got to thinking, maybe it's the lack of Soundstage that makes these so great with rock, or maybe I simply don't prefer it with rock? They image as good, if not better than the other two sets, so maybe I simply appreciate imagining over Soundstage? I really don't know. I'm still relatively new to this.
On a side note, can anyone remove the drivers from the HD 25 and put them in a different set of cans? I literally hate everything else about them. Would this run the risk of killing the sound?

That depends. It's not like a headphone with a wider and deeper soundstage will be "slower" for fast rock, they'll just not have the percussion right up at your face.

In my case if I listen to power metal on any headphone system that totally doesn't give a hoot about imaging, on top of which it has spikes to enhance the in your face effect of vocals and percussion, everything feels like it's getting thrown off the stage straight at me - everything's in front including the choir and orchestra. I use an adequately powered and non-altered (ie good damping factor amp) HD600/650, K702, HE400i, etc, and it's not like it'll come out where the notes seem to sound slower because the low end has been bloated badly enough that notes linger too long when they should be fading out, but I won't get everything feeling like they're getting catapulted off the stage and right at my face.

 

[Mhog55]

The thing is if you like your cans why get any others?

I don't know. This is definitely not a response I would have assumed to get here. I like having different cans because they sound different, and no single pair seems to do everything perfectly. My main hobby is fishing, and throughout the last 15 years I've owned more rods and reels than I care to mention. No single rod can present every offering appropriately under every condition. Headphones seem to be similar in my opinion from my short time using them. While I mostly listen to rock, I listen to some other stuff to. The HD 25s are not the best I have for most others genres. Depending on what I'm in the mood for, I usually reach for a specific set of cans for certain music. I would imagine there are seldom people on this forum who only have one pair, and if they Holy grail actually exists, it's way out of my price range I'm sure

 

[Mhog55]

That depends. It's not like a headphone with a wider and deeper soundstage will be "slower" for fast rock, they'll just not have the percussion right up at your face.

In my case if I listen to power metal on any headphone system that totally doesn't give a hoot about imaging, on top of which it has spikes to enhance the in your face effect of vocals and percussion, everything feels like it's getting thrown off the stage straight at me - everything's in front including the choir and orchestra. I use an adequately powered and non-altered (ie good damping factor amp) HD600/650, K702, HE400i, etc, and it's not like it'll come out where the notes seem to sound slower because the low end has been bloated badly enough that notes linger too long when they should be fading out, but I won't get everything feeling like they're getting catapulted off the stage and right at my face.

Like a mosh pit lol. I've asked this question before and received zero responses, so I'll ask you. If I wanted what the HD 25s bring to the table, but with a greater Soundstage, in open or closed format, what would you recommend? Does such a headphone exist? I had the he400s, and it was pretty good. Haven't tried a Sennheiser 600 series yet, though I'm going to pull the trigger on the HD 598 jubilee the moment available. I feel like my Hifiman Edition S is somewhat in the ballpark, but it doesn't have the same "slam", for lack of a better term.

 

[Rhamnetin]

The importance of headphone sound stage is overrated in my opinion (it still has importance but not as much to me) especially for fast rock and anything that isn't classical music.

 

[drtechno]

My favorite cans to listen to fast rock - AC DC Judas Priest, are still my HD 25s. They make this type of music get my adrenaline flowing, at times to where I feel like running through a sheet rock wall, Daniel Craig 007 style. I know this sort of thing isn't for everyone, but straight adrenaline is the best drug rush in the world. Don't ask me how I know. My youth was mostly ill advised.
These particular cans have zero Soundstage whatsoever. I have cans that have better width, depth, etc., such as the Beoplay H6 and Hifiman Edition S. I also owned the Hifiman He400s once upon a time. For whatever reason, the HD 25s just do rock better. Don't get me wrong, it also sounds great on my other cans, otherwise I wouldn't keep them. The HD 25s handle guitar distortion like a champ. Snare and kick drums are straight in your face with such a liveliness it's superb.
So I got to thinking, maybe it's the lack of Soundstage that makes these so great with rock, or maybe I simply don't prefer it with rock? They image as good, if not better than the other two sets, so maybe I simply appreciate imagining over Soundstage? I really don't know. I'm still relatively new to this.
On a side note, can anyone remove the drivers from the HD 25 and put them in a different set of cans? I literally hate everything else about them. Would this run the risk of killing the sound?

If your source is digital, the fidelity has been killed already, granted, you can build back most of it using a processor called an aural exciter. I remember being in a discussion once with Terry Date about how mixing metal/rock changed over the years and he said "It seemed over time people changed the way they listen to the music. In the old days, people used to rock their stereos, now everything is portable so everything has to be loud as possible, which means giving up mixing with depth and dynamic range to just stereo and layering". At the time, I could really tell he wasn't happy about this, and I understand because 1/2 of his creative abilities, he can't use it for that style of music.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I don't know. This is definitely not a response I would have assumed to get here. I like having different cans because they sound different, and no single pair seems to do everything perfectly. My main hobby is fishing, and throughout the last 15 years I've owned more rods and reels than I care to mention. No single rod can present every offering appropriately under every condition. Headphones seem to be similar in my opinion from my short time using them. While I mostly listen to rock, I listen to some other stuff to. The HD 25s are not the best I have for most others genres. Depending on what I'm in the mood for, I usually reach for a specific set of cans for certain music. I would imagine there are seldom people on this forum who only have one pair, and if they Holy grail actually exists, it's way out of my price range I'm sure

I have a 240mm single bevel carbon steel gyuto as my primary knife as it's a very precise cutting tool for doing a fine dice on onions, slicing tomatoes without squeezing the juices out, and I also use it for where an actual chef who can spend on a complete kit would use a yanagiba (taking fillets off the spine off a fish, portioning fillets, and slicing from the fillets particularly for eating raw) or a carving knife (which is why I need the primary knife this long - prime rib). Problem is sometimes I don't have the space, I don't have the time to wipe it dry or watch the angle well when I smash a lot of garlic in quick succession, and I can't hack a fish head off with it, which is why I have a hybrid santoku: stainless steel, thicker blade and softer steel like a Western knife, reground it to 70/30 bevel so it's still somewhat precise, doesn't veer off nor flap around if I force it through a squash, doesn't shatter when I take a fish head off nor chip easily if I make a mistake deboning a chicken or Frenching a pork chop, 185mm length means I don't need a lot of space and can carve around a chicken thigh bone, etc. But my most used knife (because of weeknights anyway) is a cheap as heck nakiri with a very soft steel but given the very thin blade is still very precise for chopping vegetables (and I've already prepped the meat for whatever slices I need over the weekend), although it took about 30mins on a 400grit stone to get it this sharp (and given it's used mostly on onions and scallions, plus garlic, the softer steel so far needed only 5mins on 1000grit and 3000grit once every three weeks or so, and that's with me maintaining it really sharp).

The thing is though even if I had a full kit for cooking, I don't see music playback the same way. I have an HD600 (ditto the HE400S) which some people dislike because they don't do anything particularly well, but if you think about it, it doesn't have the others' weaknesses: the amp requirements of the K7xx, power requirement of the HE400x (other than the S), the ear shattering cymbals and "throw everything but the kitchen sink" imaging on power metal of Grados, the dry midrange on some Beyers, etc. To a certain extent my reference IEM is kind of like that too: 32ohms so not too low to be a problem as well as a very high 125dB/1mW sensitivity as I use smartphones primarily apart from when Im at my desk at home ( and even then I still use the smartphones, just through USB), though its tone is closer to the HD650 (some EQ to reduce the 1000hz to 50hz range easily makes the rest of the range more audible).

It's more like if I have to buy a car/bike and have to take cost and my other uses for it into account. If I live near downtown and can walk or use trains for daily trips and some shopping trips (and Uber if I need to haul supplies home), then I might as well get a somewhat impractical high performance machine that I will use on the weekends and use a planned route out of the city to avoid any part of the road that can scrape the bottom aero on a car or a bottom mounted exhaust on a bike.If I lived in the suburb but only had space and money for one car, I'd get the best sport sedan I can afford.

Like a mosh pit lol. I've asked this question before and received zero responses, so I'll ask you. If I wanted what the HD 25s bring to the table, but with a greater Soundstage, in open or closed format, what would you recommend? Does such a headphone exist?

Based on what I've read, probably the Focal Utopia. You still need a really good amp for those though.

I had the he400s, and it was pretty good. Haven't tried a Sennheiser 600 series yet, though I'm going to pull the trigger on the HD 598 jubilee the moment available. I feel like my Hifiman Edition S is somewhat in the ballpark, but it doesn't have the same "slam", for lack of a better term.

HD600 is in the same ballpark as the HE400S. If anything the HE400S is better - smoother bass detail though with a little less "slam" (my HD600 has thick angled pads on though) and while the sensitivity is comparable it's easier to get an amp that has ~200mW at 22ohms than 300ohms (and output impedance isn't as big of a problem with planars nor newer amps). HD58X Jubiliee is mostly the HD600 but with 150ohms impedance and not much of a hit in sensitivity.

 

[Mhog55]

I have a 240mm single bevel carbon steel gyuto as my primary knife as it's a very precise cutting tool for doing a fine dice on onions, slicing tomatoes without squeezing the juices out, and I also use it for where an actual chef who can spend on a complete kit would use a yanagiba (taking fillets off the spine off a fish, portioning fillets, and slicing from the fillets particularly for eating raw) or a carving knife (which is why I need the primary knife this long - prime rib). Problem is sometimes I don't have the space, I don't have the time to wipe it dry or watch the angle well when I smash a lot of garlic in quick succession, and I can't hack a fish head off with it, which is why I have a hybrid santoku: stainless steel, thicker blade and softer steel like a Western knife, reground it to 70/30 bevel so it's still somewhat precise, doesn't veer off nor flap around if I force it through a squash, doesn't shatter when I take a fish head off nor chip easily if I make a mistake deboning a chicken or Frenching a pork chop, 185mm length means I don't need a lot of space and can carve around a chicken thigh bone, etc. But my most used knife (because of weeknights anyway) is a cheap as heck nakiri with a very soft steel but given the very thin blade is still very precise for chopping vegetables (and I've already prepped the meat for whatever slices I need over the weekend), although it took about 30mins on a 400grit stone to get it this sharp (and given it's used mostly on onions and scallions, plus garlic, the softer steel so far needed only 5mins on 1000grit and 3000grit once every three weeks or so, and that's with me maintaining it really sharp).

The thing is though even if I had a full kit for cooking, I don't see music playback the same way. I have an HD600 (ditto the HE400S) which some people dislike because they don't do anything particularly well, but if you think about it, it doesn't have the others' weaknesses: the amp requirements of the K7xx, power requirement of the HE400x (other than the S), the ear shattering cymbals and "throw everything but the kitchen sink" imaging on power metal of Grados, the dry midrange on some Beyers, etc. To a certain extent my reference IEM is kind of like that too: 32ohms so not too low to be a problem as well as a very high 125dB/1mW sensitivity as I use smartphones primarily apart from when Im at my desk at home ( and even then I still use the smartphones, just through USB), though its tone is closer to the HD650 (some EQ to reduce the 1000hz to 50hz range easily makes the rest of the range more audible).

It's more like if I have to buy a car/bike and have to take cost and my other uses for it into account. If I live near downtown and can walk or use trains for daily trips and some shopping trips (and Uber if I need to haul supplies home), then I might as well get a somewhat impractical high performance machine that I will use on the weekends and use a planned route out of the city to avoid any part of the road that can scrape the bottom aero on a car or a bottom mounted exhaust on a bike.If I lived in the suburb but only had space and money for one car, I'd get the best sport sedan I can afford.




Based on what I've read, probably the Focal Utopia. You still need a really good amp for those though.




HD600 is in the same ballpark as the HE400S. If anything the HE400S is better - smoother bass detail though with a little less "slam" (my HD600 has thick angled pads on though) and while the sensitivity is comparable it's easier to get an amp that has ~200mW at 22ohms than 300ohms (and output impedance isn't as big of a problem with planars nor newer amps). HD58X Jubiliee is mostly the HD600 but with 150ohms impedance and not much of a hit in sensitivity.

My finger is on the trigger for the HD58X

 

[Mhog55]

If your source is digital, the fidelity has been killed already, granted, you can build back most of it using a processor called an aural exciter. I remember being in a discussion once with Terry Date about how mixing metal/rock changed over the years and he said "It seemed over time people changed the way they listen to the music. In the old days, people used to rock their stereos, now everything is portable so everything has to be loud as possible, which means giving up mixing with depth and dynamic range to just stereo and layering". At the time, I could really tell he wasn't happy about this, and I understand because 1/2 of his creative abilities, he can't use it for that style of music.

Right on. That makes sense

 

[Mhog55]

The importance of headphone sound stage is overrated in my opinion (it still has importance but not as much to me) especially for fast rock and anything that isn't classical music.

That's what I'm beginning to think. Really good instrument separation is far more important to me, though I'm still fairly green and only beginning to realize what my sound preferences are.

 

[Rhamnetin]

That's what I'm beginning to think. Really good instrument separation is far more important to me, though I'm still fairly green and only beginning to realize what my sound preferences are.

Yes, great instrument separation is a must. Sounds should not drown out other sounds when not intended. This is something that typically improves as you go up in price (all the way up to and including flagships), and as you get better amplifiers (especially balanced ones).

Also I'd like to add: I've owned various high end and flagship open back headphones, and I like the ZMF Blackwood (fully closed back) and especially ZMF Ori (15% closed back) more than all but one of them (and the ZMF Ori is probably still the king of rap/hip hop for me).

 

[Redcarmoose]

Reading this thread makes me want to try the HD25s. Still without hearing them I could bet it’s more than soundstage which is the attraction here.

Plus there is always the added benefit which comes from simply listening to a particular headphone years on end. It may be unproven by science, but there is a communication there which develops with brain/burn in. IMO

For me soundstage has always been up there with features desirable in a transducer. But it’s all about knowing yourself and what you like and why. Many would agree there is no way to make one headphone sound like another. Some believe EQ can, but there is always that X factor which makes each headphone it’s own thing.

So what ends up happening in time is you do find something better, but it takes a while before your allowed to like it. Then after time you go back to your old love..... and the magic is not there.........as perception is fickle.

 

[Mhog55]

Reading this thread makes me want to try the HD25s. Still without hearing them I could bet it’s more than soundstage which is the attraction here.

Plus there is always the added benefit which comes from simply listening to a particular headphone years on end. It may be unproven by science, but there is a communication there which develops with brain/burn in. IMO

For me soundstage has always been up there with features desirable in a transducer. But it’s all about knowing yourself and what you like and why. Many would agree there is no way to make one headphone sound like another. Some believe EQ can, but there is always that X factor which makes each headphone it’s own thing.

So what ends up happening in time is you do find something better, but it takes a while before your allowed to like it. Then after time you go back to your old love..... and the magic is not there.........as perception is fickle.

I agree with what you're saying about brain burn in. It applies to so many things. I haven't been listening to headphones long enough for that to happen though. I started last December, and already have a decent collection, consisting of 7 pairs. My favorite is probably a toss up between the Beoplay H6 and Hifiman Edition S. Though if I had to choose, I would go with the H6s. Best comfort and aesthetics, but that aside they do everything right and all genres justice. Clear and balanced - and they do indeed have some Soundstage coupled with really good separation

 

[ProtegeManiac]

My finger is on the trigger for the HD58X

I wouldn't get my hopes up with those, or at least not without a good amp. Part of what you think sounds fast is lack of distortion and high damping factor, and part of what makes a headphone seem "lively, musical, and dynamic" is that the amp has a lot of reserve power if not that you're actually listening louder but with even lower distortion and noise.