[faugusta]

I'm primarily an analog guy

but I've recently discovered computer audio. I'm quite amazed by just how much my generic soundcard outperforms my modded Toshiba 3960

. While the soundcard has slightly less detail and a less expansive soundstage with my HD605's it just has more verve, something the Tosh can't touch.

I plan to upgrade to an Emu card this weekend, but I have yet to decide which one. Clearly, most of you prefer the 0404 for it's lively character over the 1212's detailed, yet apparently dull presentation. I'm having a hard time holding myself back from spending more for the 1212 simply because it's more expensive, (thus, it must be better, right?).

Does anyone that has actually heard both cards prefer the 1212 over the 0404?

 

[pbirkett]

I'd guess someone must prefer the 1212 over the 0404, but to be honest its going to be a matter of synergy and personal preference, and its generally said the 0404 is not in any way inferior, just different. The daughterboard that comes with the 1212 is likely to be the reason why its more expensive, if it didnt have it I guess they'd be the same price.

Basically though, from what I've seen, if you prefer a lively, punchy and dynamic sound, then you probably are better off with the 0404. The 1212M is meant to be more refined and detailed, so if you like those properties, go with that instead.

 

[kalzone]

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but it's difficult to fix a sound that contains coloration such as the 0404. i think it's much like trying to cover up an oder (good or bad) with something. in the case of the 1212m which is more detailed but very neutral sounding one can do almost anything with an equalizer to liven it up or alter it to your preferences.
with the FX and patchmix you can do some amazing things with the sound.

 

[pbirkett]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalzone someone correct me if i'm wrong, but it's difficult to fix a sound that contains coloration such as the 0404. i think it's much like trying to cover up an oder (good or bad) with something. in the case of the 1212m which is more detailed but very neutral sounding one can do almost anything with an equalizer to liven it up or alter it to your preferences. with the FX and patchmix you can do some amazing things with the sound.

Why do you assume the 0404 is coloured? Can you prove this?

BTW, I've tried the EQ built into patchmix with the 0404 and it still degrades the sound slightly, I dont see why the 1212's EQ will be any different.

 

[lan]

I'm not sure EQ can liven things up by that much. A lively presentation is more than frequency response.

 

[pbirkett]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lan I'm not sure EQ can liven things up by that much. A lively presentation is more than frequency response.

Like my last card, this one seems to have an impeccable sense of timing (PRaT) which made it sound lively. The EMU sounds even more lively than my old card because its more detailed, but both were pretty lively. It does seem to be the AKM house sound (I heard it in the M-Audio SuperDAC too).

 

[llmobll]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbirkett Why do you assume the 0404 is coloured? Can you prove this? BTW, I've tried the EQ built into patchmix with the 0404 and it still degrades the sound slightly, I dont see why the 1212's EQ will be any different.

How exactly does it degrade sound quality?

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by faugusta Does anyone that has actually heard both cards prefer the 1212 over the 0404?

I've heard both over time...I sold the 1212 and bought the 0404, for the lively/punchy reasons discussed above.

 

[DrewWinters]

Does anyone disagree that the 1212M is more detailed and more neutral, or is that the consensus?

Is it fair to say that the 1212M is objectively superior to the 0404?

 

[VitaminJosh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrewWinters Does anyone disagree that the 1212M is more detailed and more neutral, or is that the consensus? Is it fair to say that the 1212M is objectively superior to the 0404?

Wouldn't an objective opinion require actual measurements on sound quality? I played with the E-MU 1212m since Saturday, and just swapped it out for the E-MU 0404 -- and I got a rather interesting surprise. E-MU 0404 sounds like DAL CardDeluxe with pushed back mids and all-over-the-place bass. The high-end is almost identical to my ears, to the CardDeluxe. Comparing the E-MU 1212m to the LavryBlue (a very respected DAC in the studio community), I would say they're very identical - but the E-MU is much more harsh in the high-end and something is just a little different about the high-mid range... it "sparkles"? I don't know how to describe it properly - I'm no audiophile word savant. LavryBlue also has more of a microscopic effect on music than the E-MU 1212m.

A prime example using music would be Nirvana off of the In Utero album, the MFSL release, heres my initial impressions ---

LavryBlue: The guitar is more forward than the vocals, poor recording? intentional?
1212m: Same, except the guitar and vocals are more blurred together, and it sounds sort of digital to me, maybe that's what I mean by sparkle?
0404: Much better presentation, it masks the poor recording quite well. Gives it a warm dynamic vibe to it, you can still tell the guitar is forward but it isn't as annoying. Bass slam is noteworthy, maybe too much?
CardDeluxe: Kurt's voice is seperated from the guitar more than the 0404, but the guitar is still definately more in the foreground. Bass slam exaggerated but not quite as much.
LynxTwo-C: Surprisingly to my ears, same microscopic image of the flaws as the LavryBlue, though it sounded a little more "lifeless" - not as full.
Game Theater XP (just for fun): Oddly enough, the guitar is forward on this card as well

So forward in fact, it sounds like he is mumbling.


Listening test was conducted on Dynaudio BM15a speakers, with my subwoofer unplugged -- my headphone amp is too "low-fi" to be making such an analysis on pure sound. I also dislike the fact I have no way of A/Bing all the sources at once. Just had to go from memory of LavryBlue and CardDeluxe since I listen to those constantly.

In short, I'd say E-MU 0404 sounds closer to a live amped performance, E-MU 1212m sounds like a last pass pre-production master in a monitoring room. To these ears anyhow.

 

[lan]

VitaminJosh, I'd wait until those emu cards are burned in further before passing further judgement on them. Maybe about a few weeks. We'd be interested to hear what you think since you've use more pro soundcards.

 

[faugusta]

Thank you all for responding.

I'm fully prepared to accept the possibility that I am hopelessly obtuse but, is it possible that many folks prefer a more aggressive sound in their headphone rigs to compensate for the lack impact relative to a speaker set up? I'm refering to physical and not emotional impact. Many (but not all) posters that prefer the 0404 seem to have what I would consider very "energetic" equipment, whereas 1212 users often drive HD6xx's.

VitaminJosh-

I'm a bit confused by your post. If I understanding you correctly, in your comparison you seemed to prefer the sound of the 0404 to the 1212 when listening to In Utero. Did you feel the 0404 sounds more like live music while the 1212 seems cleaner and more precise than the real thing?

 

[VitaminJosh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by faugusta VitaminJosh- I'm a bit confused by your post. If I understanding you correctly, in your comparison you seemed to prefer the sound of the 0404 to the 1212 when listening to In Utero. Did you feel the 0404 sounds more like live music while the 1212 seems cleaner and more precise than the real thing?

That's precisely what I meant. The E-MU 1212m has a Crystal DAC right? So does Game Theater XP, both push the guitar way forward. It could simply be the house sound for that particular company. I think the 1212m is definately more "edgey", some would call it refined, but I would call it digitally grating. Recording on the 1212m seems pretty close to my LynxTwo though. (From my LynxTwo out, to my E-MU 1212m, I get the same RMAA measurements) I didn't test the 0404 for recording performance -- of the two sound cards, I am keeping the 1212m and the 0404 is going back simply because I already have a DAL CardDeluxe that has similar signature to the 0404, but the CardDeluxe is more detailed, and seperates instruments better. One thing I did note with both cards, is the DirectSound driver is leaps and bounds ahead of LynxTwo and CardDeluxe -- while playing Need for Speed Underground 2, I noticed that there was thunder before it started raining... Neither CardDeluxe nor LynxTwo directsound implementations play that thunder with their latest drivers installed as of this day.

The other thing that bothers me a little is E-MU actually has an artifically wide sound stage, compared to the other sound cards and converters I have listened to. I kept having to check Patchmix to make sure no DSP was enabled. Soundstaging was one of the reasons I didn't like the Benchmark DAC1 compared to the LavryBlue, Apogee Rosetta, and MSB Link III - I still need to hear the Mytek, but from what I read on other forums Mytek's strength is in A/D, and not D/A. Anyway; LynxTwo, CardDeluxe and M-Audio cards don't really expand the stereo image this far. It could just be personal listening tastes, but I believe that altering the stereo imaging from source lowers sound quality of the playback. ....or perhaps, the other cards/DAC I have heard are simply compressed - who knows, my ears could just be playing tricks on me. I've never trusted them fully, suggestion is a powerful thing.

Ran into my first "problem" with the Patchmix DSP software already too. DirectSound functionality failed to work, but ASIO playback still functioned. All I did was use the start menu/programs option to reset it to default configuration and it rectified itself after a reboot. I tried to mess with Patchmix and set up another session prior to doing this reset to defaults proceedure, and couldn't quite get systems sound/directsound to work.

[size=xx-small]flame suit on[/size]
A few members of this board have told me to wait a few days (and some said a few weeks

) for burn in on these sound cards before laying down judgement, I respect their views -- but I also believe these cards to be marketed at pro level. If the audio footprint of the product changes over time that could be a major issue for critical audio work! I believe in burn-in only in a limited fashion, half of it to be psychological/psychoaccoustics and the other half is simple wear. In vintage gear I'd believe the sound changes over time because of quality of old capacitors and all that jazz, but newer electronics shouldn't really change much characteristicly over a period of time. I was a salesman at Magnolia Hi-Fi (Stupid Best Buy high-end store) for a while between "real jobs" -- I sold quite a bit of voodoo magic to unknowledgable customers, and fought off returns with the excuse "it will sound better once it burns in", so I could keep said commision. TV, LCD, plasma, they burn-in... errr, wear out. So does audio gear, but by the time it starts to wear out, you should be replacing the components! I also believe in speaker burn-in, that's a moving diaphragm. Electronics also need to get to operating temperature before performing at their proposed specifications, but this effect is not "burn-in" - that's another topic all together. Capacitors only take seconds to charge, the rest of the components on the PCB should follow suit (including solder joints) as far as power up time frame in a room temperature environment. Poor Einstein, but to each his own.
[size=xx-small]changing back into hazmat suit[/size]

Oh, and I also tried playback through other speakers this morning:

Swan m200 - very good match for the 1212m at 12 o' clock treble/bass settings.

Mackie HR824 - Sibilant, but isn't this speaker already?

These speakers would probably sound great with the 0404, but I am too lazy to power down my audio workstation and swap cards again at this juncture.

FPS 200A - Definately brings out the worst quality in these speakers, the sound is flat, maybe a little emphasis on highs and boring in general, probably how it should be for pro/mixing purposes; but I don't like these speakers to begin with.

This card also seems to be a fairly good match to Sennheiser HD650 headphones and SuperDual. I didn't like the Sennheiser HD280 Pro as much with this combination. I also prefered Etymotic ER-4P unamped directly into the sound card versus Etymotic ER-4P with S adapter into the SuperDual. I really need a better headphone amp.... Sorry for the lengthy post, hopefully this helped you - I know it helped me. I didn't have to go out to lunch with a colleague I dislike because of it

 

[1UP]

Great posts, Vitaminjosh, very informative and well-written.

 

[pbirkett]

I also noticed little, if any difference between my 0404 out of the box and now after many hours of play. I was / am extremely happy with this soundcard, its simply a no-brainer for the money IMHO.