Does a great DAC for headphone use equal a great dac for speakers too?

[Audelic Norm]

Does the amount of signal amplification that must occur to drive speakers relative to headphones make a difference in the best DAC to use with each? Does it matter?

Is there a good DAC for headphones that will also make a good DAC for speakers?

Thanks for any help you can provide...

 

[Herandu]

It depends on the design. The TC-7510 that I got has a separate headphone amp, so I would say that on that one at least the amplification for the headphone is independent of the line audio output. Some people buy a separate head-amp if their DAC hasn't got a headphone socket or is not powerful enough to drive headphones. But it depends on how much you have to spend.

 

[Bazile]

I'd say a good headphone DAC makes a good speaker DAC also. A good source is a good source regardless of the equipment downstream of it. I send 1 output of my CI DAC to my headphone amp and the other to my speaker system pre-amp.

Bazile

 

[Audelic Norm]

Thanks for the help.

It was just assumed the level of amplification for speakers was so many more times greater than that needed for headphones, that minor sonic flaws produced by a DAC might get reveled. I thought the amount of amplification performed on an audio file was like how far you zoomed into a high resolution digital photograph. The more you zoom in the more flaws begin to appear. Like digital photography, I also thought a DAC did the audio equivalent of noise filtering and sharpening. Is this even close?

 

[Bazile]

I think what is/are reveled comparing speakers vrs headphones with the same source is that

1. its easier to get clean mw's of power than it is to get multiple watts of power and

2. The 50mm or less cone many headphones use is easier to keep shaped right than cones much larger.

Let me suggest this thread...I'm not qualified to talk about filtering.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127387

Bazile

 

[Audelic Norm]

Thanks for that link. A lot of good info there. Taking awhile to digest though...

 

[IPodPJ]

Usually audiophile headphones are much more revealing than speakers, unless they are very high quality (and very high priced) speakers. So if a DAC can provide superb quality for your headphones, it is going to do a great job with your speakers, too. However, different DACs have different sonic attributes, and some have soundstages that are more conducive to speaker usage than headphones. There are a few threads on this buried in the forum somewhere.

 

[krmathis]

Short answer = Yes
Longer answer = Yes, imo they do. Because headphones are very revealing, and if the DAC can provide all the sound quality needed for a headphone rig its most probably also great in a speaker rig as well.

 

[Bazile]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audelic Norm /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the help. It was just assumed the level of amplification for speakers was so many more times greater than that needed for headphones, that minor sonic flaws produced by a DAC might get reveled. I thought the amount of amplification performed on an audio file was like how far you zoomed into a high resolution digital photograph. The more you zoom in the more flaws begin to appear. Like digital photography, I also thought a DAC did the audio equivalent of noise filtering and sharpening. Is this even close?

I have to admit I'm geek enough that I stayed awake a few hrs thinking about what bothered me about about the digital photo comparison. Its apples and oranges..ok, in this case dpi and samples per sec. Enlarging a digital photo lessens the dpi and eventually it looks lousy. The audio equal would be playing the piece slower and slower until the redbook 44.1k samples/sec wasnt fast enough and you could hear the gaps.

If i can suggest a different photo comparison...

Consider the song as a photo of the original. I think of every part of the reproduction chain, including interconnects/speaker cable/headphone wireing as panes of glass that are more or less dirty/clean or accurate/distorted depending on the pane's quality. They all make a difference and like any glass between you and a photo, it will never be as good as no glass... i.e. being there. I'd love to hear what others use as analogy's.

 

[sejarzo]

All of these analogies are way off base.

A good DAC is a good DAC, end of story. Just like a good phono cartridge/preamp, or tape deck, or whatever.....the source output quality is not a function of its output voltage.

Virtually all DAC's convert the digital signal, regardless of format, into an analog signal at the same output voltage--nominally, 2.0 Vrms for a "0 dBFS digital signal" (meaning, when the data stream is at the maximum amplitude that can be encoded on the CD). Some are spec'ed for 2.1 Vrms, some put out about 2.4 Vrms, but in terms of amplification or ultimate loudness, that isn't much of a difference. In other words, almost every DAC produces the same signal strength at the output given the same input data.

Now, the quality of the digital-to-analog conversion process can indeed differ, and does to a significant extent. But that's not necessarily tied to the degree of amplification of that signal.

Headphones are certainly much more sensitive than speakers, and DAC outputs are not primarily designed to drive transducers of any sort, However, if you connect a pair of 300 ohm cans like HD600's directly to the output of most DAC's or players with opamp output stages (most of which can swing more than adequate current to drive hi-Z phones) and play a CD, the volume level is fairly loud.

HD600's, for instance, would be playing peaks at 104 to 106 dB, if I recall correctly, and the power required is only about 13 milliwatts (0.013 watts.)

On the other hand, if you have a 100 watt/ch amp driving 8 ohm speakers at full rated output on peaks, it's pushing out just over 28 Vrms, and 7700 times as much power as is driving the cans in the example above--but depending on speaker sensitivity and the room, you are likely only hearing the music at about the same perceived loudness as on the cans. And unless you have some extraordinarily good speakers, you are hearing fewer details than on the headphones at the same preceived voume level.

 

[facelvega]

I agree with sejarzo's general point that degree of amplification has nothing to do with what happens to the dac signal, and in any case every dac is sending out roughly the same nominal level on its line out. Getting the signal good and clean beyond a certain point is tricky enough, differential amplification for headphones and speakers can happen in the amp.

The digital image analogy can be a close one, but you have to put it on the same level: turning a digital image into an analog one. At that point number of pixels and how they were sampled or mastered only goes so far: printing method, color control, and a thousand considerations of reproduction contribute to the character of the picture you actually get. And that's why it matters which dac you get.