[Aradea]

I'm very ok with opinions in sound science. as long as we all keep in mind that an opinion is factual only in the eyes of the person giving it.
when we try to come up with facts here, we hope they are facts that can be replicated and don't depend on how much a person believes in it. I guess that's the point of science in general.


the problems above aren't about reality or technical arguments, they're about egos. changing the forum section won't change egos.

Make sense, we can expect never ending ego battles here then hahaha.. Well as long as its always constructive

 

[Vacheron]

It would be great for those that believe I'm "burn in" or differences cables can make at least either finish their post with a.) acknowledging no scientific proof or measurable study has ever been done to prove their opinions or b.) provide such proof?

I'm mean really what is there to debate? I can't even play Devils advocate because nothing exist to back up the other side.

 

[castleofargh]

It would be great for those that believe I'm "burn in" or differences cables can make at least either finish their post with a.) acknowledging no scientific proof or measurable study has ever been done to prove their opinions or b.) provide such proof?

I'm mean really what is there to debate? I can't even play Devils advocate because nothing exist to back up the other side.

well it's such a mess because differences do exist and are measured for some gears like headphones. usually the problem comes with people claiming they can ear what they most likely don't(like 0.1db change from a cable, or jitter going from making noise at -125db on one dac to -130db on the other). and of course there are all those who attribute a change to the wrong cause. burn in is most of the time like that.
when it's about burn in, someone will report a change between day one and 2 months later, and explain the differences he noticed. when there are many many evidences that humans are dreadfully bad at memorizing music information with precision over time(in fact we go bad after only 3seconds). so what the person will talk about is most likely how he got used to the headphone and not really the signature change.
and it's even more logical to think that way when you know that the guy used the headphone over that period of time, so changes were progressive and doubtfully noticeable. lose 3db @1khz in less than a second and you'll notice the change. lose 3db by 0.05db increment over 30days and I certainly doubt many people would know of it. to me that's what makes people talking about burn in to lose credibility. but the headphone will most likely change signature over time, that I'm fully ready to accept.

 

[logwed]

How people can believe in anything that can not be proven by science is beyond me.

 
Wow it's pretty amazing that you've managed to rid your body of all opinion! You must have flawless understanding of Nature! You Must Send A Letter To CERN Explaining It All!

 

[Vacheron]

Wow. Do you really need me to explain that I was referring to things of science?

Ok seeing how i need to point out what I consider obvious here it goes: I can have an opinion without science needing to prove It i.e. I like red wine better then white

When it comes to an opinion which would go against science you are correct I am void of all those. I would never have the opinion that gravity makes things go up rather then down on this planet, or that water does not make things wet anymore then I woild a cable with carbon fiber wrapping makes a for better sound then one from mono price.

My opinion on "burn in" is if science cant measure or prove it it does not exists, but if science ever did my opinion would obviously change

People making claims without being able to provide proof are delusional by sheer definition.

 

[logwed]

[size=13.3333330154419px]

I would never have the opinion that gravity makes things go up rather then down on this planet, or that water does not make things wet anymore then I woild a cable with carbon fiber wrapping makes a for better sound then one from mono price.

 
[size=13.3333330154419px]I see that you use balanced headphones and an expensive solid state amplifier But that is for another discussion.[/size]
 
[/size]

Wow. Do you really need me to explain that I was referring to things of science? 

 
We can measure the differences between a new headphone and a burned in headphone, but I assume that you, like I, believe that these differences are below the threshold of human hearing. Scientifically speaking, we can measure burn-in, that is, the differences in measured quantities of a headphone at t=0 and t>0. But ultimately, we're just humans listening to music (or test tones if you're weird), so we don't really care if we can measure a difference of a microohm or a dBm. What we're discussing is the audibility of the changes in a headphone caused by burn-in, it's a much more interesting question!
 
Lo and behold, we have moved from the world of science to the world of engineering standards (if you're reading, this should have been clear woooords ago)!
 
 

It would be great for those that believe I'm "burn in" or differences cables can make at least either finish their post with a.) acknowledging no scientific proof or measurable study has ever been done to prove their opinions or b.) provide such proof?

I'm mean really what is there to debate? I can't even play Devils advocate because nothing exist to back up the other side.

 
If you can't find a single reason to disagree with your hypothesis, perhaps you should examine your assumptions. Smacks of dogmatism... Perhaps we should make the burn-in believers wear a scarlet B on their jackets
 

When it comes to an opinion which would go against science you are correct I am void of all those.

 
Quoted for posterity. Let Science's Almighty Will be done!
 
EDIT: I realize that I don't have to argue about what science is and is not in this thread, sorry about that y'all, my bad. I just think Vacheron is being far too cavalier...

 

[castleofargh]

what if the headphone stays the same but time is burning in?

 

[logwed]

  what if the headphone stays the same but time is burning in?

 

 
Alright, so we have one K701 in a sock drawer filled with luxurious alpaca wool undies travelling at .99c, how long must an observer at rest wait such that, due only to relativistic burn-in effects, the K701 becomes more powerful than a god and consumes the universe?

 

[Vacheron]

Funny stuff.

Btw I'm the first admit that part of what I spend money on is looks when it comes to HT equipment. I have never stated my expensive stuff I.e. B&O or classe is all about performance. Certainly in the case of B&O better performance could be had dollar for dollar, but I believe in pleasing all senses.

As far as my balanced headphones while they are balanced that's not why I bought them. That said the balanced output of my oppo does measure different so for some headphones it could produce a better sound. No snake oil there.

Assuming that's what you meant when referring to owning balanced headphones )my McIntosh). Still yet to arrive actually

 

[BeatsWork]

Deep sigh. I'm all for evidence to make informed decisions but why the need for rudeness? As a percentage of the world's population "sound aficionados" are surely in the minority (sorry no empirical data to back this up) so why not disagree civilly?  To each his own but if you despise anyone even offering an opinion not backed by hard science why not go to "Gaseous element" audio.com - no one to argue with there?
 
And for the record I never believed in BI until one set of headphones that I picked up for $50 on clearance. Gave them 3 hours and low end was not so much recessed as absent. Used them for about a month for working out when it suddenly struck me that the low end was rather good.  Put them back on my primary amp and they sounded fantastic.  Scientific? No. Sufficient for me to believe that there may be specific circumstances where BI has material impact? Yes. Pads broke in forming better seal? Drivers loosened up? Dunno.....

 

[BeatsWork]

It would be great for those that believe I'm "burn in" or differences cables can make at least either finish their post with a.) acknowledging no scientific proof or measurable study has ever been done to prove their opinions or b.) provide such proof?

I'm mean really what is there to debate? I can't even play Devils advocate because nothing exist to back up the other side.

Originally Posted by Vacheron 

How people can believe in anything that can not be proven by science is beyond me.
 
 
So if you don't believe in anything which cannot be proved by science i.e. God then agree you aren't allowed to play Devil's Advocate

 

[Vacheron]

You got me their!

I'm an audiophile atheist.

 

[SilentFrequency]

You got me their!

I'm an audiophile atheist.

I guess everybody is here by default in membership

 

[RRod]

 
well it's such a mess because differences do exist and are measured for some gears like headphones. usually the problem comes with people claiming they can ear what they most likely don't(like 0.1db change from a cable, or jitter going from making noise at -125db on one dac to -130db on the other). and of course there are all those who attribute a change to the wrong cause. burn in is most of the time like that.
when it's about burn in, someone will report a change between day one and 2 months later, and explain the differences he noticed. when there are many many evidences that humans are dreadfully bad at memorizing music information with precision over time(in fact we go bad after only 3seconds). so what the person will talk about is most likely how he got used to the headphone and not really the signature change.
and it's even more logical to think that way when you know that the guy used the headphone over that period of time, so changes were progressive and doubtfully noticeable. lose 3db @1khz in less than a second and you'll notice the change. lose 3db by 0.05db increment over 30days and I certainly doubt many people would know of it. to me that's what makes people talking about burn in to lose credibility. but the headphone will most likely change signature over time, that I'm fully ready to accept.

 
It would seem like it's perfectly possible to capture signature changes over time: set everything up in a room that can stay quiet for a month, turn on the noise, record output from the headphones in some suitable way to a file, and then analyze the month-long file for changes in the response. Meanwhile, lament having your headphones locked in a room for 1 month :/

 

[logwed]

A special someone has performed your experiment for you:  1, 2, 3, last page for those who hate reading
 
However, I believe that castleofargh was talking about your average head-fier who believes that, over the course of 1 month of normal use, their headphones have completely changed character.
 
Anyhow, the point he makes is that the changes that a headphone will go through as it is played are so incremental that they are unnoticeable to a human listener. Probably true!