[LazyListener]

  if you're looking at a general subjective preference, then obviously DBT is not much better than a hammer. the tool is made to serve a specific purpose of removing biases(the hammer too sometimes^_^). if you care about the biases, then don't use DBT. but also don't claim to know how the headphone sounds. because in a sighted test, you only tried to check how it makes you feel instead of trying to check how it sounds.
 
about patterns, our brain is a magnificent parrot, but still a parrot. we see a tree like shape many times, and we learn the name. now when we see a tree the brain repeats the memory of trees and finds that it looks similar enough. of course it's never similar even if it's the same tree, but we're good at approximating stuff and finding patterns in everything(so good we see patterns where there aren't any). the McGurk effect is just one obvious demonstration of how our brain will assume stuff based on everything it already knows. the red cable has more bass, the silver cable has bigger soundstage, the planar drivers are neutral, that song was playing the first time I had sex and I can't dissociate the 2....
if you ever care about how something sounds like, trying to remove all information that isn't sound becomes the only answer. it might not be your question, but if it is, then proper listening test is a necessity.
 
if you only care about how you feel in general, then obviously blind tests are a waste of time. just remember to make it clear that your feedbacks are talking about you using a device, and not about the actual sound of the device.

 

I'd say that even with DBT, you can't claim how the headphone sounds in any kind of absolute sense, because you've only eliminated a few potential biases.  Some biases remain that may have an impact on one's perception of sound.
 
Okay.  "The red cable has more bass."  "The silver cable has bigger soundstage."  Where are these presumptions coming from?  With McGurk effect demo, it's coming from many years of preconditioning to specific lip/mouth movements to associated vocal sounds, and that demo shows it's pretty much universal across multiple languages.  That makes perfect logical sense.  So please give me some similar, specific examples of the headphone or hi-fi industry universally preconditioning us with specific visual to auditory associations.  I'm personally not aware of any, so please share if you know of any.
 
"If you ever care about how something sounds like, trying to remove all information that isn't sound becomes the only answer."  Agree in theory.  The key word there is "trying."  Implies that you know it's not possible when humans are doing the listening.  Even DB testing doesn't come close to achieving this.  And since we agree the brain can fool you, you'd have to eliminate the human aspect of listening, in order to even have a chance at arriving at some truly objective conclusion.  Since the whole idea of listening inherently involves humans and all their wonderful and not so wonderful biases, preconceptions, misconceptions, and what have you, then it's quite apparent that DB testing has limited value and doesn't even come close to achieving your stated objective.
 
Ultimately, this hobby, for most, is about how we feel when we listen to the gear, is it not?  It's not about the gear itself achieving some "ideal" target response curve, or reducing THD even further below what's already humanely inaudible.  I believe that I'm correct when I say that even good audio engineers fine tune and test their equipment by ear in addition to any instrumented measurements.  After all, that's how the product is ultimately used, no?  Listeners don't buy a headphone and judge their happiness with it by sticking it on a dummy head and testing the frequency response.  If the looks, build quality, materials, comfort, brand, price of a headphone ultimately contributes to my enjoyment of it and level of happiness with it, then these are not things I want to be ignorant of.

 

[castleofargh]

I made another topic, we lost the amp point of view a while back(myself included ^_^)
I'm not really creative when it comes to titles, if you think we could go with something more fitting, please feel free to suggest it.
 
 
Quote:

  I'd say that even with DBT, you can't claim how the headphone sounds in any kind of absolute sense, because you've only eliminated a few potential biases.  Some biases remain that may have an impact on one's perception of sound.
 
Okay.  "The red cable has more bass."  "The silver cable has bigger soundstage."  Where are these presumptions coming from?  With McGurk effect demo, it's coming from many years of preconditioning to specific lip/mouth movements to associated vocal sounds, and that demo shows it's pretty much universal across multiple languages.  That makes perfect logical sense.  So please give me some similar, specific examples of the headphone or hi-fi industry universally preconditioning us with specific visual to auditory associations.  I'm personally not aware of any, so please share if you know of any.
 
"If you ever care about how something sounds like, trying to remove all information that isn't sound becomes the only answer."  Agree in theory.  The key word there is "trying."  Implies that you know it's not possible when humans are doing the listening.  Even DB testing doesn't come close to achieving this.  And since we agree the brain can fool you, you'd have to eliminate the human aspect of listening, in order to even have a chance at arriving at some truly objective conclusion.  Since the whole idea of listening inherently involves humans and all their wonderful and not so wonderful biases, preconceptions, misconceptions, and what have you, then it's quite apparent that DB testing has limited value and doesn't even come close to achieving your stated objective.
 
Ultimately, this hobby, for most, is about how we feel when we listen to the gear, is it not?  It's not about the gear itself achieving some "ideal" target response curve, or reducing THD even further below what's already humanely inaudible.  I believe that I'm correct when I say that even good audio engineers fine tune and test their equipment by ear in addition to any instrumented measurements.  After all, that's how the product is ultimately used, no?  Listeners don't buy a headphone and judge their happiness with it by sticking it on a dummy head and testing the frequency response.  If the looks, build quality, materials, comfort, brand, price of a headphone ultimately contributes to my enjoyment of it and level of happiness with it, then these are not things I want to be ignorant of.

a controlled test doesn't define sound, it defines if I'm able to notice the difference in sound compared to another sound. because I get my impressions based on what I think was different, I consider by extension that making sure I heard a difference is an effective mean to improve the accuracy of my impressions.
 
"the red cable has more bass" isn't universal, if it was in a way it would be less of a problem IMO. because it doesn't matter if something is false when everybody experiences it the same way. the grass isn't really green, the glass isn't really colder than the wood, but socially everybody being wrong is often the same as being right. of course the guy looking for objective reality might not be too happy that, but it kind of work out. no that the red cable has more bass is IMO a bigger problem if somebody kind of believes it because it's going to be hard for anybody to diagnose or understand.
I just happened to read this http://www.popsci.com/how-human-mind-constructs-emotions . nothing to do with blind test, but a lot to do with biases.
 
 
 
I understand the principle of saying that I won't be able to make a perfect double blind test myself at home. and in some cases, I might in fact introduce a change with the test itself and become confident about nonsense. so why not take the easy road and just follow our guts with a sighted test? on principle I tend to agree, and being as lazy as I am gives it one more vote.
but in practice I find very little situations when I believe it is the most effective method. if the question is "which one of those devices do I want right now?", then sure enough a sighted test, or even just pure gut feelings, will be the right move. but for pretty much anything else, I'd go with measurements or controlled test. 
I noticed the dramatic difference in perception after properly matching the loudness of 2 devices, so much so that I decided I would never again trust myself to judge the superiority of a device over another without matched levels. of course it's only one variable in a world of variables, and many other biases are still there. yet it's the kind of control that is hard to dismiss once you've tried a few gears without and then with matched levels.
and then I got a switch and again, the ability to switch faster had a significant impact on my impressions. then I asked somebody to switch randomly before I would listen and switch again on my command. so I knew the 2 devices, I knew when a switch happened, I just didn't know which one I started with so I had to "guess". in that particular event, I couldn't tell which was which.  I was so sure one had deeper bass before starting, but switch after switch after switch, I couldn't notice the deeper bass anymore. kind of frustrating TBH when you're sure of what you've heard, but an eye opener.
 
all to say that indeed we rarely have the perfect answer, and controlled experiments are hardest to do right without plenty of people to look for what I alone wouldn't even think to check or change. and even with all that, the test will only answer a very limited and specific question in the form of stats. but instead of looking at the half empty glass, I see a glass where each added control might makes the water cleaner and cleaner. it's rehabilitation for the brain, even when it looks impossible, even when it's so much effort just to make a first step, in the end there is no other way to improve.

 

[spruce music]

Is it even possible to listen in a totally 100% subjective way?  Not to be influenced by objective facts at all.  To not notice how heavy or light something is.  What color it is.  Its appearance (pleasing or not).  As it doesn't seem possible to be totally fact free and subjective I say throw out any and all subjectivity in listening.
 
It doesn't seem possible to have your listening experience totally 100% shaped by selected bias to maximize enjoyment.  So listening for enjoyment or with bias intact makes absolutely zero sense if it can't be 100% pure bliss.  This point is really obvious.