[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Oh. Well, there are a lot of things, including one really important one, but we're getting off track. And we're going to have lots of definitional issues and semantic issues if we go down that road.

Hi Phil

I can assure you I will not go down that road, but it would be extremely helpful to know what you're referring to.

USG

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif *cough* *choke* *gag* *death*

Take a sip of water.

USG

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTony /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've had a bunch of amps and they all sound similar, but not the same. The varistions are what were into, to seek out the best. I use my ears, and if it sounds good to me, then i'm happy. And i can tell the difference if my hd650s are plugged into my onkyo 805 or my DV332!

Hi Big T

Welcome to the fray...........

At one of the NY meets, the year before last, we went around with a portable DVD player and compared some headphone amps using that as a source and our personal headphones.

We specifically compared my Woo3 to a DV336 and decided that the DV336 had a more colored presentation relative to the Woo3. This can be found in the impressions thread if you feel like looking for it.

But headphone amps are preamps not basic amplifiers and as such can sound differently from each other depending on their circuitry.

My understanding was that the question under discussion was if all amplifiers (meaning basic amplifiers - as cited in the 28 years of amplifier testing) sound the same.

Your Onkyo is a receiver so of course you can tell the difference between its headphone out implementation and the preamp your DV332 is, but, if you were able to safely tap just the amplifier output to your headphones, you would find that it sounded pretty much like all the other basic amplifiers. (and I say "pretty much" because there would be various synergies and impedance issues between the preamp, amp and headphones, that I don't want to go into, but you can read it as "sounds the same")

I did a similar thing with a while ago with my Denon receiver. I took the jumpers out between the preamp and the amp and ran it from my GS-1 to a set of Polk satellite speakers. It sounded exactly the same when I connected the GS-1 to an Audio Source Amp 1. This, of course, doesn't prove anything because I couldn't go back and forth while I was comparing and I knew exactly which amp I was listening to.

USG

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by upstateguy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can assure you I will not go down that road, but it would be extremely helpful to know what you're referring to.

I'll send you a PM.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'll send you a PM.

Answered

 

[milkweg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can you give me any support for your statement that people who believe in amp differences believe they only account for a "5% difference in sound quality"? I've never seen such a study or reference. Also, can you point me to a study showing that room acoustics have a far greater effect on sound quality than an amp does? I would be interested in seeing such a study, particularly to see how they dealt with the fact that there are many different types of amps and rooms. On the other hand, if you statements are just ipse dixits, just say so. As to the "night and day" difference because my friend had a cold, how do you know? You don't even know the guy.

You said he had a cold and is how I know. You are using red herrings just as that guy you claimed is missing a brain said you would. All the info I posted about regarding room acoustics etc. is available if you just search for it. I'm not going to do it for you as it is is time consuming.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkweg /img/forum/go_quote.gif All the info I posted about regarding room acoustics etc. is available if you just search for it. I'm not going to do it for you as it is is time consuming.

I wasn't able to find it, but in searching for it, I found a couple of tests that said that the impact of room acoustics is typically much less significant than first thought, and that the differences from power cords actually outweigh the differences from room acoustics. I didn't keep the links, but I'm sure if you look for them, you'll be able to find them.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also, can you point me to a study showing that room acoustics have a far greater effect on sound quality than an amp does? I would be interested in seeing such a study, particularly to see how they dealt with the fact that there are many different types of amps and rooms.

Indeed, this is one of those recurrent anecdotes you hear. I have never heard of a direct comparsions between the two, however the AES library does have some interesting papers/articles/workshops on the effect of Room acoustics.


Study on the Relationship between Some Room Acoustical Descriptors
JAES Volume 51 Issue 6 pp. 518-533; June 2003

AES Vienna 2007: Poster Session P16

AES 108th Convention

Audio-Visual Design and Room Acoustics for the
Board Room, Part I

AES San Francisco 2006: Workshop W10

The Effect of Room Acoustics on MP3 Audio Quality Evaluation by Schobben, Daniel; van de Par, Steven

Control Room Acoustics-Measurements by Teuber, Wolfgang; Völker, Ernst-Joachim

Room Acoustics of Studios by Farrell, Ranger

Room Acoustics and Equalisation of Speaker Systems for Multipurpose Theatres by Munro, Andrew

I cannot post these as they are copyrighted, however the general tenor of them is that the AES at least feel room acoustics to be important. Though they never make any comparative statements wrt amps/cables and so on.


Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wasn't able to find it, but in searching for it, I found a couple of tests that said that the impact of room acoustics is typically much less significant than first thought, and that the differences from power cords actually outweigh the differences from room acoustics. I didn't keep the links, but I'm sure if you look for them, you'll be able to find them.

DBT I trust

 

[PhilS]

Nick, thanks for the links.

I figured that there probably were not any tests comparing the effect of room acoustics versus amps in an "objective" fashion, but since some folks seem to think that all that matters is objective testing and comparisons, I thought I'd ask. Well, at least I found out what I suspected when I asked the question, namely, that "anecdotal evidence" is not be considered at all if it is advanced by one "side" of the argument, but it's ok for the other side to advance it.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nick, thanks for the links. I figured that there probably were not any tests comparing the effect of room acoustics versus amps in an "objective" fashion, but since some folks seem to think that all that matters is objective testing and comparisons, I thought I'd ask. Well, at least I found out what I suspected when I asked the question, namely, that "anecdotal evidence" is not be considered at all if it is advanced by one "side" of the argument, but it's ok for the other side to advance it.

Humans eh, just so unreliable

 

[milkweg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wasn't able to find it, but in searching for it, I found a couple of tests that said that the impact of room acoustics is typically much less significant than first thought, and that the differences from power cords actually outweigh the differences from room acoustics. I didn't keep the links, but I'm sure if you look for them, you'll be able to find them.

Bollocks, the fuse in the wall has more effect on SQ than the power cord.

 

[Pio2001]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also, can you point me to a study showing that room acoustics have a far greater effect on sound quality than an amp does?

For what it's worth, I've added the simulated frequency responce of a room in the FR topic : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/m...5/#post5456598

We can see that an amp have response variations in the +/- 0.5 dB range, while a room is rather in the +/- 10 dB range, which is 20 times more.

Also, the room has much more frequency peaks than the amplifier : 39 peaks between 20 and 1000 Hz, vs 2 peaks for the amplifier measured here : http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ass...rInterface.pdf

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pio2001 /img/forum/go_quote.gif For what it's worth, I've added the simulated frequency responce of a room in the FR topic : http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/m...5/#post5456598 We can see that an amp have response variations in the +/- 0.5 dB range, while a room is rather in the +/- 10 dB range, which is 20 times more. Also, the room has much more frequency peaks than the amplifier : 39 peaks between 20 and 1000 Hz, vs 2 peaks for the amplifier measured here : http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ass...rInterface.pdf

I agree: metrologically room acoustics have much greater impact -- although you seem to think frequency response is all that matters, which is wrong.

If I had to choose between good speakers in an acoustically bad listening room and mediocre speakers in an acoustically optimal room, I would have a hard time. If I had to choose between a good amp in a bad room and a mediocre amp in a good room, the decision would be easy, though -- in favor of the good acoustics.

That said, amps do make a difference nonetheless, and I value the impact quite high.
.

 

[milkweg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif That said, amps do make a difference nonetheless, and I value the impact quite high. .

Sure, they make a difference but not to sound signature. They make a difference if they can drive your speakers/headphones to the sound level you like without clipping.

 

[krmathis]

Different design, different components, different ...
Of course they don't sound the same.