Diana: the second release by Abyss Headphones!
Jan 17, 2021 at 11:57 PM Post #3,451 of 4,435

TDinCali

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jan 13, 2021
Posts
211
Likes
511
Location
California
Sorry I'm confused. Amir's test says that the Diana V2 has a bass roll off and an uneven high end. When I listen to the V2 in comparison to hifiman Arya or the 1266, the V2 sounds a little warmer and a noticeable amount more bass than the Arya but not as much as the 1266. I realize that Amir only tested about 6 or 7 headphones with his new testing rig and hasn't tested the Arya but if the Arya is considered good from a performance standpoint than to my ears the V2 is better. So I'm not worried about a graph.
 
Last edited:
Jan 18, 2021 at 12:06 AM Post #3,452 of 4,435

A Jedi

500+ Head-Fier
Joined
Aug 29, 2019
Posts
543
Likes
1,380
Location
In the temporal disturbance
If they feel soft to you (and you're not a flat metal head with ears), then the most logical guess is that they will mold perfectly to a flat surface, like the fixtures we are talking about.

It's as easy as testing by placing them on a two flat, hard surfaces separated by a width of your head and seeing if they mold well and don't generate a visible leakage spot.

You don't need numbers or hard science for that, just trust your observation skills.



The fact that science allows repeatability does not imply that you have identical results even when you have practically the same variables, let alone when multiple variables are in play as we have here (different units, pads in different condition, different fixtures, positioning, external factors and a very long etc).

What that repeatability allows you to see, in one order of magnitude or another, is a noticeable pattern (in this case, a poor sub-bass response compared to the rest of frequency response) that you can even corroborate empirically, listening to it for yourself, as you have done.

It's not about taking sides and saying that someone is right or wrong, as I said, both Amir's and Jude's measurements show similar results (once you match the methodological framework). You are the one who makes the effort to say that Amir's results are diametrically different from Jude's and they are not.



I can't argue on that, but visual things also lead to confusion when you try to replicate and disprove someone else's position.

The distortion is not the same either, Jude's base measurements are performed at 90 dB while Amir's are done at 94 dB, so you can't expect the same distortion ratios.

Consistency is key if you want to obtain repeatability, which Jude didn't want.



If no one has done it, what prevents them from doing it?

Amir doesn't control the personal audio industry and anyone who has a fixture of this level can replicate the results with the methodology that he uses (which is public and available to everyone).

Jude has been using the B&K 5128 for more than 6 months now and we have only seen a few measurements with it, using a methodology that not only differs from Amir's, but also from other people such as crinacle or oratory1990.

I see it more as a lack of initiative rather than an impossible challenge.



Again, stop making these absurd "pick-a-band" statements, this is not a war in which you have to take sides.

When did I say that Amir is not likely to make mistakes?

What I have said is that I quite agree with their methodology and approach of demanding well engineered products and stop scamming people with snake oil claims. Does that seem wrong to you? Why does the measurements of the Diana bother you so much if you are enjoying them perfectly?

I have not seen (until now) a bias on their part in favor of one thing or another that makes me question their integrity, beyond things that they measure exemplary, but beyond that, I limit myself to talking about their measurements and how their methodology correlates with my professional experience, nothing else.

Ok dude whatever. I (along with others) have given clear examples of erroneous methodology and results but you choose to ignore them. I've asked you specific questions, using your own words, but you won't answer them. I've pointed out inconsistencies in your arguments but you won't address them. That's fine. This is becoming a waste of time. Good luck with your shoddy engineering.
 
Jan 18, 2021 at 3:40 AM Post #3,453 of 4,435

elira

1000+ Head-Fier
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Posts
1,051
Likes
733
Location
California, Bay Area
If Abyss addressed the fitting issue we wouldn’t have this discussion. To me it seems reasonable that Amir published those specific measurements with the improper seating because those were the measurements that matched his experience. I haven’t seen how Jude chose which of his measurements were the correct ones, but it might as well be that his head just fits better the shape of the headphones.

I‘ve read a big portion of this thread, and fitting issues are common. Some people solve them with the DMS mod, while others cannot get a good fit with either of the pads.
 
Jan 18, 2021 at 4:48 AM Post #3,454 of 4,435

chocomel167

Head-Fier
Joined
Dec 27, 2016
Posts
56
Likes
32
@Merkurio It certainly sounds to me that your simply repeating what you've read from other websites. I see no original thinking in any of your responses, nor any helpful suggestions to improve the measurements, and certainly nothing that that would help explain the discrepancy in the measurements you prefer. You realize you're beginning to look a bit disingenuous at this point.

You state that both measurements show a similar result, they do not. I can't even imagine why you or anyone else would say that. A tenfold difference in the distortion numbers is not even close to similar. You might say the lines are similar in shape, but who the hell cares, this isn't 2nd grade art class, it's a damn measurement, and the higher of the two is most definitely wrong.

Man, if I went to a TA in an engineering lab and showed a report result like that, they'd laugh in my face and rip the paper up right in front of me. If my boss (if I had a boss:) asked me to measure something not once, but twice, and I gave him both these results stating that they'e similar, what do you think he'd say? But in your world, a measurement, even if inaccurate due to test protocol, is just fine.
WOW, just WOW!

I think I figured out the problem here... You're missing what the area under the graph represents. AAHHH, that's the problem, somewhere along the way you learned that the area under the line on the graph is meaningless. Well, I'm here to tell you that it has meaning, there's information in the area below those wiggly lines, and that information, invisible to most, is what some call magic.ABYSS_SMILEY_tiny.png

GO BILLS !!!

cf0640ad471c39f4c8b053f059709d68.jpg
Their Measurements do align pretty well. As I explain/show here https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/kxw8qe/_/

Considering reports from users i don't believe the worse seal situation is unrealistic, in turn i would say it's definitely useful to have Measurements with that kinda coupling.

As for improving Measurements.
-I would like to see the behavior with varying coupling better characterized like keith howard does at headphonetestlab or using inear mics like Rtings does.
-Would be nice if we could finally move on from using THD with it's poor correlation with sound quality and use one of the weighted distortion metrics that perform better.
-Linearity Measurements would be neat.
-In this specific case would have been nice if Jude had Measured the distortion for both better and worse seals.
 
Jan 18, 2021 at 5:17 AM Post #3,455 of 4,435

bithloman

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Posts
112
Likes
104
Location
chattanooga
If Abyss addressed the fitting issue we wouldn’t have this discussion. To me it seems reasonable that Amir published those specific measurements with the improper seating because those were the measurements that matched his experience. I haven’t seen how Jude chose which of his measurements were the correct ones, but it might as well be that his head just fits better the shape of the headphones.

I‘ve read a big portion of this thread, and fitting issues are common. Some people solve them with the DMS mod, while others cannot get a good fit with either of the pads.

please explain why a person who proclaims from their alter that certain headphones are objectively terrible because of science and tries to destroy companies reputation while working for chinese companies, who accuses this website of being sponsored while accepting chinese cash and or thousands of dollars in products which is the same thing and "donations" on every review, would post an obviously flawed measurement and state such conclusions using said measurement when admitting that the seal was not correct. amir either got mad and said "well i cant get them to seal so they dont DESERVE the extra work on my part to get 100% a good seal like on a human head with curves". or he is incompetent and or has a grudge against american companies who charge alot of money. look at his topping l30 review and the reviews linked below (he literally cant be bothered to use balanced or even use 2 speakers for stereo imaging. every other review is "this was sent to me by insert company or person" but with the l30 he just states price and moves on. he is literally part of chi fi market and marketing . now why would he hate american hi fi? why would he ban the word "chi fi" ? ill let you decide.
 
Last edited:
Jan 18, 2021 at 5:47 AM Post #3,457 of 4,435

bithloman

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Posts
112
Likes
104
Location
chattanooga
A couple great examples of amirs truly groundbreaking scientific research -

Subjective listening with Magnepan LRS...

Member 1:

Maybe @amirm can comment about how he listened to these for his subjective evaluation (or maybe he did and I missed it). Two speakers instead of one, as he usually does? Experimentation with placement from front wall? This might clue us in to why he heard no bass in his listening session.
Amir:

One speaker was used as always. I explained in the review that I experimented with positioning but did not spend a lifetime on that. I noted in the review that you can mess with them and likely get a different result.
Member 2:

A couple of issues there. One is that you need the output from both bass panels because they are asymmetrical (as you observed) and the acoustic dipole equalization is designed to interleave (two segments on one side, three on the other). So the bass response won't be smooth if you listen to only one speaker.

The other I think is that with one speaker, you'll miss one of the main reasons people love planar line sources, despite their limitations -- the awesome imaging.

Amir:

Not really. The imaging is apparent with a single speaker just as well. Try it.

Testing two speakers will multiply the nightmare of setup with these speakers times two.

^ this is all you need to know about AMIR




1610966746268.png

1610966761708.png




1610966111031.png
 
Jan 18, 2021 at 7:24 AM Post #3,461 of 4,435

bithloman

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Posts
112
Likes
104
Location
chattanooga
It' sad to see that this public discrediting of Amir is tolerated here.
its sad for you that im posting things he posted word for word ? interesting! if me pointing to something he said offends you and makes you imply i shouldn't be aloud to say it. i find your reasoning suspicious. this thread is literally about whether or not he is a credible source for ruining the image of a company. he has said he markets for chinese companies himself. nothing i said it made up, sorry that is offensive to you . he publicly discredits entire companies and this entire website along with the major people here, but i cant take a screenshot of his own words. YIKES @up late
 
Jan 18, 2021 at 7:34 AM Post #3,462 of 4,435

up late

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Posts
6,381
Likes
2,123
its sad for you that im posting things he posted word for word ? interesting! if me pointing to something he said offends you and makes you imply i shouldn't be aloud to say it. i find your reasoning suspicious. this thread is literally about whether or not he is a credible source for ruining the image of a company. he has said he markets for chinese companies himself. nothing i said it made up, sorry that is offensive to you . he publicly discredits entire companies and this entire website along with the major people here, but i cant take a screenshot of his own words. YIKES @up late
thanks in advance for leaving me out of your conspiratorial rantings in future
 
Jan 18, 2021 at 7:47 AM Post #3,465 of 4,435
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Posts
437
Likes
531
Location
Buffalo, New York
@chocomel167 The [obvious] problem with measuring with a loose couple is the measurements are no longer objective. It's more an experiment than a measurement.

Such experiments varying coupling to the test fixture would favor driver designs that are damped (or electronically controlled) for free air, and in as such most likely sound worse in a headphone application even though they vary less with coupling to a microphone. Again, coming at it from what humans hear while listening to music with headphones, testing loosely coupled does not move the measurement bar forward. All it does is favor worse sounding headphones and sh.tty measurements, where the driver could care less about damping, or the person making the test cares less about results. Some 50 cent dynamic driver would look way more consistent uncoupled vs coupled, while a planar or estat, some of the current best sounding headphone driver designs available, would contrast far more.

If the headphone is decoupled, more explanation and information needs to be given, such as photos of the decoupling, or more specifically the circumferential area of decouple. Not only that, a measurement with proper coupling to the test fixture is necessary as a baseline, something lacking from ASR. Otherwise how would anyone know the difference? Amir knows this, yet he's talked a fair number of you into believing that what he's doing is in some way forward thinking. How does this headphone actually measure when used as intended, he doesn't know, does't care, all of the above, from his data we can't tell. In all cases, to be impartial to headphones that have complex shaped ear pads designed to more closely follow head shape, the test fixture must at least attempt to mimic the shape of a human. A flat plate test fixture would only exasperate the decouple from any real life scenario, as is the case with ASR. If his intentions were truly to accurately contrast and compare the affect of head coupling on any given headphone, he would have opted for the test fixture shaped as a head, not a flat plate (photo of both below).

In the end, from my perspective as a headphone designer, and end user of such, looking into the crystal ball shows that making measurements that vary wildly from test to test, experiment to experiment, test set-up to test set-up, subjective desires to subjective desires, will only reduce trust in such to a point where they're nothing but a joke, nothing more than an excuse for poor results and lower sound quality. You guys are most definitely being misdirected on this one, and you don't even see the train coming.

63219420366__36251222-9BBB-4325-84F8-F7A1FAB4137A.jpeg



Considering reports from users i don't believe the worse seal situation is unrealistic, in turn i would say it's definitely useful to have Measurements with that kinda coupling.
 
ABYSS Headphones We engineer, machine, and build our headphones from scratch in New York, USA. Stay updated on ABYSS Headphones at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/AbyssHeadphones https://twitter.com/AbyssHeadphones https://www.instagram.com/abyssheadphones/ https://abyss-headphones.com/ info@Abyss-Headphones.com

Users who are viewing this thread

Top