Diana: the second release by Abyss Headphones!
Jan 17, 2021 at 6:53 PM Post #3,436 of 4,435

Merkurio

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With what company do you practice your audio engineering skills?

I did my internship at my faculty research center (I'm more involved in research work, want to starting a master's degree in psychoacoustics this year), but I am very familiar with headphone measurements with the fixtures we have here in compliance with the IEC 60318-4 (711) and 60318-1 standards; a couple of GRAS units (including a 45CC with P51 mouth simulator) and a Larson Davis AEC206 (which is very similar to the 45CA used by Amir and Jude). We even have an anechoic room where we have tested prototypes from one of the most recognized speaker brands in Mexico for third party validation purposes.

That is why I defend Amir's practices and methodology during his measurements, they are much closer to what I have seen and experienced here (and compared at other research centers) than Jude's.

How about bad seal? As an "audio engineer" you should have no problem understanding what happens to a transducer when its operated outside of its intended enclosure (or lack thereof).

You even bothered to read Amir and Jude's measurements? Both have complaining about the results due to the tricky sealing, as I do in the first point of my last post.

There are sub-200 planars that don't suffer from this problem, maybe you should demand a little more for the extra thousands of dollars you pay, but it's up to you.

If you're on the "I trust what my ears hear and what the manufacturer tells me" side of things, I don't see the need to get into discussions about technical aspects that you clearly don't understand, enjoy your Diana and let the rest of us debate about it.
 
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Jan 17, 2021 at 7:16 PM Post #3,437 of 4,435

A Jedi

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Since Abyss can't produce any official graphs themselves

Except they did. Thanks for playing.

We could use a third third-party measurement.

Other than the fact that there is one a few pages back. Sure.


You're delusional and butthurt

I'm neither and you neither hurt my feelings nor put me in my place.

because someone has a different opinion of a product that you like

I was under the impression that we're talking about data not opinions.

Maybe some people have higher standards than you and that's fine.

Garbage data generated by a garbage testing method is a "higher standard"? Ok dude :dt880smile: Enjoy your "higher standard".
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 7:18 PM Post #3,438 of 4,435

A Jedi

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Both have complaining about the results due to the tricky sealing, as I do in the first point of my last post.

There are sub-200 planars that don't suffer from this problem, maybe you should demand a little more for the extra thousands of dollars you pay, but it's up to you.

Have you considered the fact that my human-shaped head may provide the proper seal? It seems at least a little likely given that the pads were designed to seal against the shape of a human head.

Since you're very knowledgeable in this area, please explain to us plebes how a diaphragm interacts with its enclosure or lack of one.
 
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Jan 17, 2021 at 7:34 PM Post #3,439 of 4,435

Merkurio

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Have you considered the fact that my human-shaped head may provide the proper seal? It seems at least a little likely given that the pads were designed to seal against the shape of a human head.

Are the pads rigid enough to prevent deformation on the flat plate of the fixture? Because that in conjunction with the pad shape would, in fact, avoid proper sealing and alter measurements.

However, as far as I understand, the pads are incredibly soft and therefore should have no problem adapting to any surface (in this case, the flat plates of the 45CA fixture), so in that case, it's not a valid consideration for measurement proposes.

Besides (and although I can't speak for anyone else's opinions), Amir has correlated that poor sub-bass response that shows up in his measurements (and Jude's) with what he hears on tracks with a strong presence of sub-bass frequencies, which has improved a bit (in his words) applying his personal EQ profile, so this is another "subjective" aspect to consider that directly validates the crux of the results.
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 7:49 PM Post #3,440 of 4,435

A Jedi

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Are the pads rigid enough to prevent deformation on the flat plate of the fixture?.......

However, as far as I understand, the pads are incredibly soft and therefore should have no problem adapting to any surface (in this case, the flat plates of the 45CA fixture), so in that case, it's not a valid consideration for measurement proposes.

I neither have a square head nor a flat plate coupler in front of me so I can't answer that. They sit perfectly fine against my head. I am unable to slide a piece of paper between my skin or the pad at any point in its circumference.

Amir has correlated that poor sub-bass response that shows up in his measurements (and Jude's

If you read one of my previous comments, I said that that correlates with what I hear.

My issue with Amir's measurements is the following:
He admitted he couldn't get a good seal. That means whatever numbers he got are not accurate. Yet he not only published them, he made a verdict based on them. And to top it all off, he continues claiming they're correct. 2 different sets of measurements (from Abyss and from Jude) show drastically different results. But I guess we should expect that everyone who isn't Amir is lying and Amir is the God of measurement.

We all want the "truth" in whatever we engage in in life. But blindly following one guy who says that HIS truth is the REAL truth is pure madness. If you can confirm that his truth is the real truth great! But can YOU confirm that his numbers are accurate? 99% of the people who swear by his measurements haven't even heard the things - so they can't even BEGIN to confirm. Blind faith - that's it. Blind faith is not even in the same neighborhood as objectivity or science.
 
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Jan 17, 2021 at 7:56 PM Post #3,441 of 4,435

jlbrach

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I would say the overwhelming number of reviewers and those who have listened to these HP's have praised them...along comes comes this guy with his measurements and what?...we are supposed to say they all of sudden dont sound great?...seems like a silly exercise...
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 8:25 PM Post #3,442 of 4,435
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@Merkurio It would be helpful to understand how you compare your research to what you see in these real world measurements. What are your suggestions for Jude and others to make better measurements?

Wish you great success in your studies. ABYSS_SMILEY_tiny.png
 
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Jan 17, 2021 at 8:43 PM Post #3,443 of 4,435

Merkurio

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I neither have a square head nor a flat plate coupler in front of me so I can't answer that. They sit perfectly fine against my head. I am unable to slide a piece of paper between my skin or the pad at any point in its circumference.

My question is not that complicated, I just asked if the pads are rigid or soft (if they're soft, they could accommodate with no problems to any surface, assuming the angle shape isn't too radical).

It's no rocket science, just common sense.

My issue with Amir's measurements is the following:
He admitted he couldn't get a good seal. That means whatever numbers he got are not accurate. Yet he not only published them, he made a verdict based on them. And to top it all off, he continues claiming they're correct. 2 different sets of measurements (from Abyss and from Jude) show drastically different results. But I guess we should expect that everyone who isn't Amir is lying and Amir is the God of measurement.

Controversially (and despite the hassle of measure it), the results between Amir and Jude do not differ from the initial polemic, which is mainly focused to weak sub-bass response and high distortion in low and high registers, with the difference that Jude has used a totally different convention to show the results at the horizontal scale (logarithmic instead of linear) and lower SPL than Amir (90 vs 94 dB).

When Amir attempts to match Jude's convention, the results shows almost the same story despite the difference in fixtures (Jude initially uses the B&K 5128) and the SPL (Amir's is 4 dB higher, hence the higher distortion):

index.php


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And that's the "magic" about science and measurements, the ability to faithfully replicate results with a degree of confidence.

We all want the "truth" in whatever we engage in in life. But blindly following one guy who says that his truth is the only truth is pure madness. If you can confirm that his truth is the truth great! But can YOU confirm that his numbers are accurate? 99% of the people who swear by his measurements haven't even heard the things - so they can't even BEGIN to confirm. Blind faith - that's it. And that's not even in the same neighborhood as objectivity or science.

There's no such thing as "truth" in the scientific method when all procedures, techniques and approaches change over time as new knowledge is acquired, it's not about having blind faith in anyone, but about having a solid foundation on what is being discussed in order to establish one's own conclusions.

In my case, Amir's methodology is closer to my academic background and what I have put into practice over time, plus I haven't noticed any type of bias on his part in all the products he has tried. This is not a cult of his personality, I simply support his point of view regarding well-engineering products and scientific approach. 🤷🏻
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 8:59 PM Post #3,444 of 4,435

A Jedi

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My question is not that complicated, I just asked if the pads are rigid or soft (if they're soft, they could accommodate with no problems to any surface, assuming the angle shape isn't too radical).

It's no rocket science, just common sense.

It's not common sense though. What is the definition of soft? To me they feel soft. Are they soft enough to properly seal against a flat plate? I have no idea. I don't know how much softness is needed 🤷‍♂️

Controversially (and despite the hassle of measure it), the results between Amir and Jude do not differ from the initial polemic, which is mainly focused to weak sub-bass response

Again, it's not that simple. Define "weak". 1db? 5db? 10db? 50db? Because while the 3 measurements we have all show a drop-off in the sub-bass (which as I've stated, has been my experience listening to them), there is one outlier (Amir's). So which is correct? The 1 outlier or the other 2?

and high distortion in low and high registers, with the difference that Jude has used a totally different convention to show the results at the horizontal scale (logarithmic instead of linear) and lower SPL than Amir (90 vs 94 dB).

Logarithmic vs linear is only a visual thing. What we care about is the % distortion. And both graphs show that on the left side.

And that's the "magic" about science and measurements, the ability to faithfully replicate results with a degree of confidence.

I agree. Please show me someone who has faithfully replicated Amir's results with a degree of confidence.

Jude has done that with Abyss' results.

In my case, Amir's methodology is closer to my academic background and what I have put into practice over time, plus I haven't noticed any type of bias on his part in all the products he has tried. This is not a cult of his personality, I simply support his point of view regarding well-engineering products and scientific approach. 🤷🏻

So what you're saying is that there is zero percent chance that he did the measurements improperly? Please confirm his measurements (to faithfully replicate results with a degree of confidence). But make sure to use the methodology where the subject being tested is tested for a real world application (proper seal).

Thanks.
 
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Jan 17, 2021 at 9:11 PM Post #3,445 of 4,435

Merkurio

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@Merkurio It would be helpful to understand how you compare your research to what you see in these real world measurements. What are your suggestions for Jude and others to make better measurements?

Wish you great success in your studies.

Thanks for your kind wishes!

As I stated before, I have no problem at all with Jude's results other than the way their graphs show the actual headphone behavior.

For example, I strongly encourage the use of linear horizontal scale to represent the frequencies instead of the logarithmic that Jude has been using, not only because standardized conventions in real world measurements and research works, but for the easy legibility and understanding to most people (graphs should not exist to look "smooth" nor "flat" or "pretty", but to tell us reality about the headphone with high levels of discernment, including not-so-convenient peaks and dips).

Regarding to THD measurements, higher SPL tests should be performed not only for QC concerns about driver capability under high loads, but because we actually can exceed that threshold of sound pressure depending of what type of content we're hearing. 110 dB at bass frequencies aren't the same as the 110 dB at mid frequencies that the OSHA declares harmful to our ears, and music often includes a TON of energy information under mid to high frequencies (remember we hear in Phon, not in dB).

Other than that, I encourage @jude to do more measurements with their state-of-the-art fixture and encourage the whole industry to pursuit a better engineering products, for the sake of continuous improvement and for the consumers' good (who should recieve top tier objective performance for the top tier prices they pay for).
 
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Jan 17, 2021 at 9:25 PM Post #3,446 of 4,435

bluestorm1992

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Thanks for your kind wishes!

As I stated before, I have no problem at all with Jude's results other than the way their graphs show the actual headphone behavior.

For example, I strongly encourage the use of linear horizontal scale to represent the frequencies instead of the logarithmic that Jude has been using, not only because standardized conventions in real world measurements and research works, but for the easy legibility and understanding to most people (graphs should not exist to look "smooth" nor "flat" or "pretty", but to tell us reality about the headphone with high levels of discernment, including not-so-convenient peaks and dips).

Regarding to THD measurements, higher SPL tests should be performed not only for QC concerns about driver capability under high loads, but because we actually can exceed that threshold of sound pressure depending of what type of content we're hearing. 110 dB at bass frequencies aren't the same as the 110 dB at mid frequencies that the OSHA declares harmful to our ears, and music often includes a TON of energy information under mid to high frequencies (remember we hear in Phon, not in dB).

Other than that, I encourage @jude to do more measurements with their state-of-the-art fixture and encourage the whole industry to pursuit a better engineering products, for the sake of continuous improvement and for the consumers' good (who should recieve top tier objective performance for the top tier prices they pay for).
Now that we have an expert here, I wish to ask a question that I have been wondering for a while. :) What does “warm” mean in measurement? To put it differently, if we say a gear has a “warm” sound signature, does this mean distortion in certain measurements?

In many reviews, people seem to place “warm” as the opposite of cold/clear sound. Also, the gears that have excellent measurements tend to be described as “cold”. This is what makes me wonder maybe “warm” is a kind of distortion in some measurement?
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 9:39 PM Post #3,447 of 4,435

A Jedi

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Now that we have an expert here, I wish to ask a question that I have been wondering for a while. :) What does “warm” mean in measurement? To put it differently, if we say a gear has a “warm” sound signature, does this mean distortion in certain measurements?

In many reviews, people seem to place “warm” as the opposite of cold/clear sound. Also, the gears that have excellent measurements tend to be described as “cold”. This is what makes me wonder maybe “warm” is a kind of distortion in some measurement?

I've seen it used for having a bit of distortion or for having a rise in FR in the lower frequencies. You really need to know how a person describes things to understand what they mean. And what their tolerance for "warmth" is versus your own.
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 10:07 PM Post #3,448 of 4,435

Merkurio

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It's not common sense though. What is the definition of soft? To me they feel soft. Are they soft enough to properly seal against a flat plate? I have no idea. I don't know how much softness is needed 🤷‍♂️

If they feel soft to you (and you're not a flat metal head with ears), then the most logical guess is that they will mold perfectly to a flat surface, like the fixtures we are talking about.

It's as easy as testing by placing them on a two flat, hard surfaces separated by a width of your head and seeing if they mold well and don't generate a visible leakage spot.

You don't need numbers or hard science for that, just trust your observation skills.

Again, it's not that simple. Define "weak". 1db? 5db? 10db? 50db? Because while the 3 measurements we have all show a drop-off in the sub-bass (which as I've stated, has been my experience listening to them), there is one outlier (Amir's). So which is correct? The 1 outlier or the other 2?

The fact that science allows repeatability does not imply that you have identical results even when you have practically the same variables, let alone when multiple variables are in play as we have here (different units, pads in different condition, different fixtures, positioning, external factors and a very long etc).

What that repeatability allows you to see, in one order of magnitude or another, is a noticeable pattern (in this case, a poor sub-bass response compared to the rest of frequency response) that you can even corroborate empirically, listening to it for yourself, as you have done.

It's not about taking sides and saying that someone is right or wrong, as I said, both Amir's and Jude's measurements show similar results (once you match the methodological framework). You are the one who makes the effort to say that Amir's results are diametrically different from Jude's and they are not.

Logarithmic vs linear is only a visual thing. What we care about is the % distortion. And both graphs show that on the left side.

I can't argue on that, but visual things also lead to confusion when you try to replicate and disprove someone else's position.

The distortion is not the same either, Jude's base measurements are performed at 90 dB while Amir's are done at 94 dB, so you can't expect the same distortion ratios.

Consistency is key if you want to obtain repeatability, which Jude didn't want.

I agree. Please show me someone who has faithfully replicated Amir's results with a degree of confidence.

Jude has done that with Abyss' results.

If no one has done it, what prevents them from doing it?

Amir doesn't control the personal audio industry and anyone who has a fixture of this level can replicate the results with the methodology that he uses (which is public and available to everyone).

Jude has been using the B&K 5128 for more than 6 months now and we have only seen a few measurements with it, using a methodology that not only differs from Amir's, but also from other people such as crinacle or oratory1990.

I see it more as a lack of initiative rather than an impossible challenge.

So what you're saying is that there is zero percent chance that he did the measurements improperly? Please confirm his measurements (to faithfully replicate results with a degree of confidence). But make sure to use the methodology where the subject being tested is tested for a real world application (proper seal).

Thanks.

Again, stop making these absurd "pick-a-band" statements, this is not a war in which you have to take sides.

When did I say that Amir is not likely to make mistakes?

What I have said is that I quite agree with their methodology and approach of demanding well engineered products and stop scamming people with snake oil claims. Does that seem wrong to you? Why does the measurements of the Diana bother you so much if you are enjoying them perfectly?

I have not seen (until now) a bias on their part in favor of one thing or another that makes me question their integrity, beyond things that they measure exemplary, but beyond that, I limit myself to talking about their measurements and how their methodology correlates with my professional experience, nothing else.
 
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Jan 17, 2021 at 10:52 PM Post #3,449 of 4,435

Roasty

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I would say the overwhelming number of reviewers and those who have listened to these HP's have praised them...along comes comes this guy with his measurements and what?...we are supposed to say they all of sudden dont sound great?...seems like a silly exercise...

Lol! This was exactly what I was thinking too..
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 11:40 PM Post #3,450 of 4,435
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@Merkurio It certainly sounds to me that your simply repeating what you've read from other websites. I see no original thinking in any of your responses, nor any helpful suggestions to improve the measurements, and certainly nothing that that would help explain the discrepancy in the measurements you prefer. You realize you're beginning to look a bit disingenuous at this point.

You state that both measurements show a similar result, they do not. I can't even imagine why you or anyone else would say that. A tenfold difference in the distortion numbers is not even close to similar. You might say the lines are similar in shape, but who the hell cares, this isn't 2nd grade art class, it's a damn measurement, and the higher of the two is most definitely wrong.

Man, if I went to a TA in an engineering lab and showed a report result like that, they'd laugh in my face and rip the paper up right in front of me. If my boss (if I had a boss:) asked me to measure something not once, but twice, and I gave him both these results stating that they'e similar, what do you think he'd say? But in your world, a measurement, even if inaccurate due to test protocol, is just fine.
WOW, just WOW!

I think I figured out the problem here... You're missing what the area under the graph represents. AAHHH, that's the problem, somewhere along the way you learned that the area under the line on the graph is meaningless. Well, I'm here to tell you that it has meaning, there's information in the area below those wiggly lines, and that information, invisible to most, is what some call magic.ABYSS_SMILEY_tiny.png

GO BILLS !!!

cf0640ad471c39f4c8b053f059709d68.jpg
 
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