Diana: the second release by Abyss Headphones!
Jan 17, 2021 at 5:51 AM Post #3,421 of 4,435

julien-hifi

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I wish we could trust more our ears than graphs.
Mines tell me diana v2 is very very good after all headphones i was lucky to get my hands on, and that’s good enough for me.
For those who remember the controversy there was once with the lcd4 after Tyl and Jude measured it, it seems to me we have the same story here... lcd4 after all these years is still praised, the same will happen with diana v2.
Measuring headphones/in-ear is challenging.
I usually have a look at asr for dac and amp, but not much for headphone because we have different head morphologies and positioning will play a role too.
I wouldn’t trust any graphs for headphones in general, but that’s just me :)
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 8:17 AM Post #3,422 of 4,435

491838

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^ The difference is that Audeze unit variation is still high these days. The new LCD-X measures very poorly due to the new pads and you can actually hear that it sounds off because it has almost no ear resonance peak. Audeze in general are pretty horribly tuned and the fact that audiophiles have no issue with that says a lot about how good they are at listening lol (though older Audeze models measured better with the old pads).
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 9:37 AM Post #3,423 of 4,435
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With what company do you practice your audio engineering skills?

My thoughts from an audio engineer perspective familiarized with both headphone and speaker measurements
 
ABYSS Headphones We engineer, machine, and build our headphones from scratch in New York, USA. Stay updated on ABYSS Headphones at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/AbyssHeadphones https://twitter.com/AbyssHeadphones https://www.instagram.com/abyssheadphones/ https://abyss-headphones.com/ info@Abyss-Headphones.com
Jan 17, 2021 at 10:16 AM Post #3,424 of 4,435

A Jedi

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I haven’t seen a single “valid” criticism against Amir measurements and methodology with actual arguments supporting it

How about bad seal? As an "audio engineer" you should have no problem understanding what happens to a transducer when its operated outside of its intended enclosure (or lack thereof).
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 10:18 AM Post #3,425 of 4,435

A Jedi

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There are DACs that have crossfeed if you want that. It would definitely change the sound but that can be measured too.

The point of my comment being to show a very obvious and simple was that two "same sounding SS amps" can sound different. Not seeing this measurement done by ASR all the while they spew this nonsense that all SS amps sound the same.
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 12:17 PM Post #3,426 of 4,435
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We have years of experience measuring our headphones, we've literally done tens of thousands of measurements. We measure on a daily basis as headphones go through QC, we measure when prototyping, R&D, etc. Let's just say we know our measurements.

In the case of headphones, particularly planar designs, the speaker driver requires the side of a head in order to operate within it's design parameters. The speaker uses the head as part of it's damping, or tuning. Basically, the speaker driver acts differently at certain frequencies with varying damping or spacing from your head.

We recently did an easy to understand video on driver dampening if interested.

Microphones used for making measurements of headphones basically measure changes in air pressure, so when a test is done where a headphone is not properly placed on the test fixture, a poor set of measurements are the result. It should be noted that a microphone does not model how the human brain actually listens. They don't call it a dummy head for nothing, the microphone can only measure one way, unlike humans, it makes no interpretation of what it measures. Measurement results are completely reliant on the care taken by whomever runs the test. In essence this adds a subjective twist, particularly in headphone measurements where the placement of the headphone to the test fixture and microphone is critical.

Putting the above together, If the interface between the headphone ear pads and a test fixture or not properly set, given both the lack of nominal driver damping and lack of proper interface to the microphone, it's a bit of double whammy in skewing results. The test results fit no norm. For all the reasons that we measure headphones, such results are useless.

In the case of ASR's measurements, we immediately knew they did not have a proper interface to the test fixture by the bass hump in the frequency response. The fact that they published these measurements (with notations on the graphs on how bad the measurements look) seems to point to some sort of biased intent. These are not objective measurements, this is how THEY made them look, subjectively skewed. Anyone in the know who does headphone measurements for a living knows it.

That being said, if someone enjoys going through some sort of academic process to see how frequency response or distortion varies with improper fitment to a test fixture, have at it. We call that a learning curve, it's what one would do to understand what not to do when measuring.

So the question is, why ASR knowingly published flawed measurements? So far the only reason given is they wanted to show how the headphone would 'sound' with a gap between ear pad and head. IMO this is nothing but BS, plain and simple.

As a side note, we hear music in a completely different way than a microphone, which is why research is still a work in progress on how measurements correlate to the human experience of listening. If interested in how we interpret sound, I would suggest reading the book 'This is Your Brain on Music'. While not all chapters may interest you, I'll bet you'll find at least a few enlightening. It's an easy read.

Thanks everyone for your support!
Joe and The ABYSS Team
 
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ABYSS Headphones We engineer, machine, and build our headphones from scratch in New York, USA. Stay updated on ABYSS Headphones at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
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Jan 17, 2021 at 12:34 PM Post #3,427 of 4,435

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In the case of ASR's measurements, we immediately knew they did not have a proper interface to the test fixture by the bass hump in the frequency response. The fact that they published these measurements (with notations on the graphs on how bad the measurements look) seems to point to some sort of biased intent. These are not objective measurements, this is how THEY made them look, subjectively skewed. Anyone in the know who does headphone measurements for a living knows it.
The Head-Fi measurement showed almost the exact same lack of bass. Maybe the issue is with the design of the pad.
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 12:42 PM Post #3,428 of 4,435

A Jedi

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The Head-Fi measurement showed almost the exact same lack of bass. Maybe the issue is with the design of the pad.

It showed the same pattern of drop off for the sub bass but not nearly as egregious as ASR's. Owning the can, it matches what I hear. The H-F measurement also shows a much different measurement throughout the entire frequency range. It also shows a VERY different distortion graph. While it's not the cleanest can ever, it's not the flaming pile of crap that ASR shows.

Anyway, Amir like everyone else is in this for money (do you think he's a saint out to save the audiophiles?) He needs to generate traffic on his site and drama guarantees traffic so the more of it he creates, the better. Plus it's been proven that he works for Topping so there goes his "non-partisan", "purely objective" credibility.
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 1:46 PM Post #3,429 of 4,435

julien-hifi

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It should be noted that a microphone does not model how the human brain actually listens.

Exactly, whatever anyone reading this thread might conclude, objectively we can say measuring headphones is challenging and easly subject to error and misleading information.
The slight change will affect the sound.
When you wear a headphone, don’t your try to adjust it for the right fit or sound pressure by bending the headband (not all hp lol), or changing pads, and so on?
I think we are used to read reviews, watch youtube and others, for audio or else, and in the end, we make our own opinion on what’s relevant and what’s not. Same here for me, this debate make me realize i can’t trust any of these graphs, and i should just trust my ears, and not give more credit to these graphs than what they are.
 
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Jan 17, 2021 at 3:09 PM Post #3,430 of 4,435

bikutoru

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....Plus it's been proven that he works for Topping so there goes his "non-partisan", "purely objective" credibility.
Can I get a reference where it has been proven? At least my totally subjective feeling that ASR is "the brotherhood of Topping" will be verified, lol.
Please note, I'm not against Topping, they might be producing very nice equipment that I've never used, it is just measuring and comparing everything against is, bothered me for quite some time.

I had loved 'This is Your Brain on Music', it made me treat manufactures that even think about such complex issues with greater respect. Not everything is as simple as it appears from a short measurements/listen. My first time with Diana was a very short listen at CanJam last year, I thought, hmm, nothing special, it sounds very good, but then this nothing special tells me that if everything sounds just right, I can listen in them to all kinds of music for hours and hours and that is very special!
When I got Diana, my son told me that I'm crazy, he listened to them at CanJam too, but then I had hard time to "disconnect" my Diana from his dubsteps.
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 3:26 PM Post #3,431 of 4,435

jlbrach

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the way the diana sits on your ears makes an enormous amount of difference in terms of the sounds you hear...same as with the abyss 1266 but to a lesser degree...the whole measurement argument seems silly
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 4:53 PM Post #3,433 of 4,435

491838

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Microphones used for making measurements of headphones basically measure changes in air pressure

so when a test is done where a headphone is not properly placed on the test fixture, a poor set of measurements are the result

It should be noted that a microphone does not model how the human brain actually listens.
Eardrums work the same way. There's nothing magic about audio.

The thing is the company who makes this headphone would probably have no way of knowing that since they do not themselves own a standardized measuring rig.

It actually correlates pretty well in a lot of cases and a lot of scientific research was done to ensure a high degree of accuracy. Just because science can't explain the human hearing 100% it doesn't mean it should be thrown out the window entirely. This hostile attitude towards measurement doesn't surprise me given that Abyss is run by people who peddle pseudo-science. You have no business discussing the actual merits of science since you are bastardizing it in every video that you post. And on your product pages.

It showed the same pattern of drop off for the sub bass but not nearly as egregious as ASR's. Owning the can, it matches what I hear. The H-F measurement also shows a much different measurement throughout the entire frequency range. It also shows a VERY different distortion graph. While it's not the cleanest can ever, it's not the flaming pile of crap that ASR shows.

Anyway, Amir like everyone else is in this for money (do you think he's a saint out to save the audiophiles?) He needs to generate traffic on his site and drama guarantees traffic so the more of it he creates, the better. Plus it's been proven that he works for Topping so there goes his "non-partisan", "purely objective" credibility.
There are differences that could be explained by unit variation, yes. Since Abyss can't produce any official graphs themselves since they do not own a proper HATS set-up we won't know for sure. We could use a third third-party measurement.

He measured high end gear that performs better than Topping lol. You're delusional and butthurt because someone has a different opinion of a product that you like. Maybe some people have higher standards than you and that's fine.
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 5:18 PM Post #3,434 of 4,435

Traiguen

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If someone is interested in a 4-month old Diana V2 with DMS Mods.... please send me a PM.
 
Jan 17, 2021 at 6:26 PM Post #3,435 of 4,435
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@Dealux If we produced measurements using the same test set-up, would you take ours as valid? I doubt it.

Measurements are useful to the manufacturer as they correlate to design changes, and, for designers who also use their ears, also correlate to the subjective. They know that A caused measurement B that sounds like C, or A did nothing to B yet caused change in C, etc, etc. To a vast majority of consumers, because they are not intimate with the deign, they hold less value.

Head-Fi has one of the best measurement set-ups in our niche industry. We're good with the measurements Jude made. He takes pride in what he does, he's into his measurements big time. I can understand why manufacturers would send him product to measure, he knows his sh.t. When I saw his V2 measurements, I asked him about the test gear. The system he's using has some very useful features and certainly expands upon our current measurement capabilities. We've already made inquiries for the same.
 
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ABYSS Headphones We engineer, machine, and build our headphones from scratch in New York, USA. Stay updated on ABYSS Headphones at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/AbyssHeadphones https://twitter.com/AbyssHeadphones https://www.instagram.com/abyssheadphones/ https://abyss-headphones.com/ info@Abyss-Headphones.com

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