Diana: the second release by Abyss Headphones!
Jan 13, 2021 at 12:58 PM Post #3,286 of 3,835

cadgers

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Bass and sub bass sound and feel very different. The roll-off here is around 55-60Hz, which is sub-bass. A lot of bass-heads (or friends!) are just that - they really like bass but don't care ir notice sub bass as much. It is also harder to hear and reproduce in transducers in general. there aren't a ton of tracks that use it either (in comparison to rest of the hearing spectrum).

You also heard it in a noisy environment (by your account), and may have missed something like that, or attributed it to "I couldn't hear it due to noise".

I'm not trying to call you out here, and mentioning this here just as an example of biases that *might* exist in all of us. I'm nitnfree of biases, which is why I like reading measurements.
I think there might be things we don't know how to measure yet, or explain, and I'm always doubting everything, but I do like it when people at least try and explain their approach (and just approach things scientifically in general)

Bias 100% exists but I don't think that was the case here. I listen to mid 2000s dubstep a lot as well as drum and bass. This song is ALL sub bass. I heard them in a closed room at Can Jam out of my own personal WM1A. I listen to that song on every headphone I try. The Abyss V2 I heard reproduced those notes without issue.
 
Jan 13, 2021 at 1:09 PM Post #3,287 of 3,835

XUPX

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The issue here is not a matter of "the measurements show a bad headphone". The issue is that there is a blatant disconnect between the measurements and reality. If you told me that you measured the color of the sky to be blue while I perceive it to be LIGHT blue, I'd concede that measuring equipment can be more sensitive than my eyes and there is a realistic chance that my perception is wrong. However, if you tell me that you measured the sky color to be red while my eyes see blue, I guarantee there is something wrong with your measurements. That's the case here.
I'm super glad you used that example. What if you are colour blind and can't see these colours in the spectrum? What if, I show you 2 colours that look 100% the same to you, but their measurements are different? Which is right?

I can show you so many studies that show how powerful biases are. Example of weird behavior: if you try something and I tell you it costs $1000 vs $10, most people would say the $1000 is better, even if that's the exact same object. If I tell you something is supposed to have a certain attribute before you try it, you might "perceive" it. You can't trust your senses. And I'm not saying measurements are always right, nor am I saying these are definitely right. I'm saying I haven't seen anything to show me these aren't, and I find Amir's explanations for the differences with other measurements reasonable. I don't see any glaring issues that I can point out to with the methodology. So, now I have another data point. Until we have more information (Amir measures these again, someone else measures, Abyss releasing measurements, someone finds a real fault with methodology, etc.) I'll treat these data as valid.
 
Jan 13, 2021 at 1:10 PM Post #3,288 of 3,835

XUPX

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Bias 100% exists but I don't think that was the case here. I listen to mid 2000s dubstep a lot as well as drum and bass. This song is ALL sub bass. I heard them in a closed room at Can Jam out of my own personal WM1A. I listen to that song on every headphone I try. The Abyss V2 I heard reproduced those notes without issue.
Will try on my Phi at some point today.
 
Jan 13, 2021 at 1:10 PM Post #3,289 of 3,835

GoldenOne

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I'm super glad you used that example. What if you are colour blind and can't see these colours in the spectrum? What if, I show you 2 colours that look 100% the same to you, but their measurements are different? Which is right?

I can show you so many studies that show how powerful biases are. Example of weird behavior: if you try something and I tell you it costs $1000 vs $10, most people would say the $1000 is better, even if that's the exact same object. If I tell you something is supposed to have a certain attribute before you try it, you might "perceive" it. You can't trust your senses. And I'm not saying measurements are always right, nor am I saying these are definitely right. I'm saying I haven't seen anything to show me these aren't, and I find Amir's explanations for the differences with other measurements reasonable. I don't see any glaring issues that I can point out to with the methodology. So, now I have another data point. Until we have more information (Amir measures these again, someone else measures, Abyss releasing measurements, someone finds a real fault with methodology, etc.) I'll treat these data as valid.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/diana-the-second-release-by-abyss-headphones.777618/post-16101725
 
Jan 13, 2021 at 1:23 PM Post #3,291 of 3,835

XUPX

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I've read and commented on that exact post. At the time, it seemed like very reasonable possible flaw in methodology. However, Amir did go into quite a bit of detail (in my opinion) and it seems reasonable to me that his methodology is good.
That's not to say that there's no chance that there's an issue there. But to say that these concerns, for me, are now put to rest. I'll reassess once new information comes to light. That's the beauty if science! Constant scrutiny :)

Edit: typo
 
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Jan 13, 2021 at 1:26 PM Post #3,292 of 3,835

XUPX

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I think they look pretty and sound great.

And I can go for a walk with them, weather dependent.

What more can a man need? :)
That is 100% fine! I love my Phi, and am not replacing them. That's why I'm so surprised that people are taking this so harshly. For me, even if proven 100% valid and accurate, this doesn't take from my enjoyment of them. Oh well.
 
Jan 13, 2021 at 3:02 PM Post #3,295 of 3,835

XUPX

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Doesn't that make it even more important to give the correct info? Telling a color blind person that the sky is red when it's blue is a lie. You're doing the opposite of helping them.
My point wa0s that our senses have faults. So saying "this does correlate to x person's impressions" (where x person is anyone and no one in particular), is not going to win me over.
I want more data. More reviews. There are many "subjective" reviewers I completely disregard because they tend to give significantly more positive reviews than false. Ok. That's on me, as a consumer of reviews, to decide if I trust an "expert" or not. My method is reading reviews of gear I know for reference, or look for certain things I qualify as "bad" to know if I trust them. I usually also read as many reviews as I can about something I want to buy, and look for patterns. Your process might be different.
But I was never upset because there were too many opinions, or even ones I thought were, say "funny". Because more is still better and it gives me more data points.
At the end of the day, I might buy it, try it and keep it. Or not. Regardless of what anyone else thinks about my decision.

And we should raise questions. But right now, until there's new data, we're probably treading water I think. So let's get another sent, I believe that is happening.lets send a Phi. Let's get more people to measure, and get companies to release measurements. Many pro companies release measurements per individual headphones or speakers. That should be the gold standard
 
Jan 13, 2021 at 6:42 PM Post #3,296 of 3,835

Degru

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nor do i share your view that @amirm's measurement methodology is the sole reason why some folks have reacted adversely to his review.
I am one of those folks. I honestly think Diana is poor value for money and never intend on getting one. But the measurement problems in that review are identical to those present in many Stax measurements, where difficulty of sealing causes identical behavior and a poorly performing result on something that should extend totally flat and distortion-free. Amir himself even demonstrated it in one of his replies, though he once again seemed to imply that that was just how it performed.
 
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Jan 13, 2021 at 7:20 PM Post #3,297 of 3,835

up late

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I am one of those folks. I honestly think Diana is poor value for money and never intend on getting one. But the measurement problems in that review are identical to those present in many Stax measurements, where difficulty of sealing causes identical behavior and a poorly performing result on something that should extend totally flat and distortion-free. Amir himself even demonstrated it in one of his replies, though he once again seemed to imply that that was just how it performed.
you've left out the first part of my sentence in your quote and conveyed the opposite of what i meant as a result. what i actually wrote was: "nor do i share your view that @amirm's measurement methodology is the sole reason why some folks have reacted adversely to his review."
 

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