Desktop Amp for IEMs
Oct 28, 2017 at 1:55 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 23

jmpsmash

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Aug 30, 2001
Posts
237
Likes
64
Location
Santa Clara, CA
Hi Head-Fiers I am looking for some recommendations,

My project is to upgrade my setup at work. I am looking for a good desktop amp that is quiet enough but don't need to be super powerful but definitely need low output impedance to drive my Andromeda. I like something with a slightly tubey warm sound, good dynamics and sound stage. I can deal with a tiny bit of hiss but not much. Budget is ~$2k.

Been looking at different threads here and got quite overwhelmed.

Linear Tube Audio MZ2s
Woo Audio WA22 - a bit conspicuous to have it sitting at my cubicle?
Woo Audio WA8 - great compact solution, not cheap though, how's the sound compared to MZ2S at similar price?
Studio Six - quite a bit over-budget

what else should I look at?
 
Oct 28, 2017 at 3:16 PM Post #2 of 23
For tubey with iems, schiit might be the way to go (and youll have some change). A lot of their top enders are tube/solid state hybrid with low gain settings for iems (and high gain for hard to push cans). Im at the other end of the price scale but covet their top end!
 
Oct 28, 2017 at 10:03 PM Post #3 of 23
My project is to upgrade my setup at work. I am looking for a good desktop amp that is quiet enough but don't need to be super powerful but definitely need low output impedance to drive my Andromeda. I like something with a slightly tubey warm sound, good dynamics and sound stage. I can deal with a tiny bit of hiss but not much. Budget is ~$2k.

Meier Corda Jazz FF
 
Oct 29, 2017 at 11:11 AM Post #4 of 23
I recommend that you search the amplifiers of the Garage 1217, these amplifiers have the option of changing the output impedance which would allow you to use from IEM to 600ohm headphones.
 
Oct 29, 2017 at 1:53 PM Post #5 of 23
I recommend that you search the amplifiers of the Garage 1217, these amplifiers have the option of changing the output impedance which would allow you to use from IEM to 600ohm headphones.

Variable impedance is not a requirement for hi-fi playback, low output impedance is. If the impedance is low enough so damping factor due to impedance mismatch won't be a problem with whatever impedance his IEMs are at, even down to 16ohms for an amp that has 2ohm output impedance (and down to 8ohms with a 1ohm output impedance - and even then this is just a very safe guide), then that output impedance will not be an issue for any higher impedance headphone.

What variable impedance does specifically is to introduce a controlled amount of impedance mismatch and thus a chosen EQ curve. Which is weird, because an amplifier's job is to amplify the input signal into a stronger signal that can move the transducers (whether those are headphones or IEMs, or speakers) without distortion, not...you know...introduce distortion.

A low impedance amplifier with a very good potentiometer with minimal if not zero imbalance as well as a low enough gain so that even without imbalance it won't pile on a lot of noise just off zero on the volume knob will power IEMs just fine. The problem with desktop amps is that they're designed with higher gain and not much concern for channel imbalance since they tend to be primarily geared for harder to drive headphones. This is why older Meiers for example have a -10dB low gain setting and now, just -4dB low gain but also a digital potentiometer with an analogue knob controlling it (so it doesn't use slow adjusting buttons or an infinitely moving knob like on HT receivers that requires a display to show what level it's currently set to, without which it can have the tendency to dish out a literally deafening surprise since you can't just turn it to the left and be sure it's at or near zero). Likewise, the O2 has custom gain settings to it can be ordered with -3dB on the low setting. Note that -xxdB settings doesn't mean it's making the signal weaker than the amplifier's output stage is making it, the same way that an HT receiver will be set to -10dB and neighbours will start filing noise complaints.
 
Oct 29, 2017 at 5:06 PM Post #6 of 23
Variable impedance is not a requirement for hi-fi playback, low output impedance is. If the impedance is low enough so damping factor due to impedance mismatch won't be a problem with whatever impedance his IEMs are at, even down to 16ohms for an amp that has 2ohm output impedance (and down to 8ohms with a 1ohm output impedance - and even then this is just a very safe guide), then that output impedance will not be an issue for any higher impedance headphone.

What variable impedance does specifically is to introduce a controlled amount of impedance mismatch and thus a chosen EQ curve. Which is weird, because an amplifier's job is to amplify the input signal into a stronger signal that can move the transducers (whether those are headphones or IEMs, or speakers) without distortion, not...you know...introduce distortion.

A low impedance amplifier with a very good potentiometer with minimal if not zero imbalance as well as a low enough gain so that even without imbalance it won't pile on a lot of noise just off zero on the volume knob will power IEMs just fine. The problem with desktop amps is that they're designed with higher gain and not much concern for channel imbalance since they tend to be primarily geared for harder to drive headphones. This is why older Meiers for example have a -10dB low gain setting and now, just -4dB low gain but also a digital potentiometer with an analogue knob controlling it (so it doesn't use slow adjusting buttons or an infinitely moving knob like on HT receivers that requires a display to show what level it's currently set to, without which it can have the tendency to dish out a literally deafening surprise since you can't just turn it to the left and be sure it's at or near zero). Likewise, the O2 has custom gain settings to it can be ordered with -3dB on the low setting. Note that -xxdB settings doesn't mean it's making the signal weaker than the amplifier's output stage is making it, the same way that an HT receiver will be set to -10dB and neighbours will start filing noise complaints.
I never understand these explanations, remember that I am a noob when it comes to audio, I only recommended the amplifiers of the Garage 1217 because I did not see sense in buying an amplifier like the WA22 for example that costs thousands of dollars to to drive IEMs when there are portable amplifiers like the OPPO HA-2 or the Chord Mojo, which is why I recommended them because they are much cheaper and have this ability to change the output resistance.
 
Oct 29, 2017 at 8:41 PM Post #7 of 23
I never understand these explanations, remember that I am a noob when it comes to audio, I only recommended the amplifiers of the Garage 1217 because I did not see sense in buying an amplifier like the WA22 for example that costs thousands of dollars to to drive IEMs when there are portable amplifiers like the OPPO HA-2 or the Chord Mojo, which is why I recommended them because they are much cheaper and have this ability to change the output resistance.

I really don't see the logic of looking at the cost as justification. IEMs are not cheap either, the Andromeda cost $1100, most people use WA22 with full cans that are in the range of $1000-$2000.

I am more concerned with the SQ than anything else.

from absolute SQ alone, can the Ember 2 rival a WA22?
 
Oct 29, 2017 at 8:51 PM Post #8 of 23
I really don't see the logic of looking at the cost as justification. IEMs are not cheap either, the Andromeda cost $1100, most people use WA22 with full cans that are in the range of $1000-$2000.

I am more concerned with the SQ than anything else.

from absolute SQ alone, can the Ember 2 rival a WA22?
I know there are expensive IEMs, but how much of impendance and sensitivity do the most expensive IEMs have? Will they reach 100, 200, 300ohm or 83.5dB of sensitivity as the HE6? I may be wrong but I do not think so, so I think it's a waste of money to buy an amp that costs $ 2,000 to drive only IEMs, but if you want to know more about the Garage 1217 amplifiers I suggest you talk directly to the owner of company, he usually responds very fast.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 12:35 AM Post #9 of 23
I never understand these explanations, remember that I am a noob when it comes to audio, I only recommended the amplifiers of the Garage 1217 because I did not see sense in buying an amplifier like the WA22 for example that costs thousands of dollars to to drive IEMs when there are portable amplifiers like the OPPO HA-2 or the Chord Mojo, which is why I recommended them because they are much cheaper and have this ability to change the output resistance.

First, apart from the cost of the WA22 the real issue with an amp like that being used for IEMs is that it's HUMONGUOUS. It can't even just do well on just any desktop set-up as it's practically the size of a speaker amplifier.

Second, it's alright if you don't understand the explanation (though I'm not sure how to simplify that apart from just going into further detail, which could be even more of an impediment to understanding it) and you're admittedly a noob, then why recommend something for technical reasons you do not sufficiently understand? That will be like, if this was a computer forum, someone asks for what parts to get to play Total War with some light media editing work, and you suggest a G4562 and blow all the money on a GPU just because reviews keep saying that CPU doesn't matter as much when 1) he'll have light workstation tasks running on it and 2) reviewers don't even use Total War and have no numbers to back up the claim that the CPU barely matters (by now even GTA V and Assassin's Creed are showing that CPU core count as well as single core computer performance matters).

Now, to go into further detail on impedance, the very general rule is that the ratio of the load impedance (this is the headphone) to the output impedance (on the amp) needs to be roughly 8:1. I say "general" and "roughly" because 1) unless you understand and do the math, this is just a shorthand for getting a safe number; which is because 2) the effect varies not just in terms of absolute ratios but how high the impedances are since the same ratio for low and high impedance loads will not necessarily have the same effect and 3) even the specs of the headphone and amp can affect what kind of sound shaping will occur as some headphones can end up sounding very different on two otherwise similar topology and high output impedance amp designs (K701 will sound slightly warmer on DV336, but like a tin can on a Little Dot MkII).

Again, and his is something I already put in the prior post, if you start out with an amp that has a low output impedance in the first place, then it will run any impedance properly at least as far as impedance is concerned (output power, distortion+noise levels, and gain are another matter). A variable output impedance is not required to run different impedance loads properly, and by "properly" I mean "does not introduce any changes to the input signal apart from amplifying it into a stronger signal to move the transducers." If you are starting out with a low output impedance amp then it will not reshape the signal and the amplifier does exactly as it's supposed to do.

Reshaping the frequency response in most cases is just more easily done with EQ anyway since you'd have more control, especially with digital EQs and computer sources that are more commonly used now. For example even if you can use a high output impedance and gut lucky enough that it boosts the bass and rolls off the treble on a given low impedance headphoone/IEM (or boosts midrange and rolls off treble on a high impedance headphone), that tends to have a very wide but generally more uniform effect. If the problem with a particularly bright headphone for example is that it has a peak somewhere between 4000hz and 10,000hz, this kind of EQ effect reduces everything in that range, but you're still going to get left with a relative peak in that range, which you could have just trimmed in a more precise (and to a point, surgical) manner by using an equalizer with variable settings.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 2:49 AM Post #10 of 23
guys, yes. having a low output impedance is important for the setup that I am looking for, but while important, that's not the ONLY thing.

these days it seems that finding low impedance headphone amps is not hard. aside from eg. OTL tube amps, many are 2 ohms and most are even lower almost to neglible.

the size and cost (up to ~$2k) doesn't matter that much. no Dave or WA33 obviously as my kidneys are too old to be worth what it would cost. I don't mind something the size of a WA22 as I am not going to be carrying it around. What I don't like is that it attracts a lot of attention. I just want to listen to my music and don't have my officemate looking at it. The MZ2s also look interesting.

However, what I am definitely interested in the best SQ that I can get for that price. If someone tells me that I can get a $300 DIY amp and it will be as good as a $2k pure tube amp, with OT, with tube rectifier. I am not saying it is not possible, but I am definitely skeptical.

Btw I have a iFi micro iDSD BL and I wasn't very excited about the sound signature. a bit dry and dark to my ears, perhaps I am too used to tube as I have been a tube guy for years. I also have a heavily modified Musical Fidelity XCansV2. The original output impedance is high at 33 Ohms. however, it turns out it was artificially made high so I removed the 33 Ohms resistor in series in the output and the tonal balance turns out good. unfortunately it has a lot of hissing noise on the Andromeda. the sound is OK and tubey but I am looking for something even better.

I will clarify the choice of a IEM for a desktop setup instead full size. I understand the choice is unusual. This is my work setup so I will be using it for a long duration over the course of the work day. I have previously used a pair of AT (forgot the model) and also HD580 and my head cannot stand them after less than hour. I get a headache and I have to take them off.

I eventually ended up with IEMs and they are perfect, as they don't leak sound and won't bother my officemates and I can listen for hours on end without fatigue.

So with all that, comes my search for a desktop (or OK to be on a desktop) amp that have low output impedance, and need to be very good SQ.

ps, I might still be considering closed cans in the future if I can find one that doesn't cause fatigue but that will be for another thread for another day!
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 3:20 AM Post #11 of 23
IMO, if SQ is the most important thing, a Hugo 2. It's not "tubey" but I don't believe you'll find that it matters, especially if you value the idea of instruments sounding natural and real. If you *must* have tubey warm, a WA8.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 3:25 AM Post #12 of 23
guys, yes. having a low output impedance is important for the setup that I am looking for, but while important, that's not the ONLY thing.

Which is precisely why my suggestion has:

1. A very low noise floor
2. Low distortion
3. Digital volume control for tight channel output matching with the convenience and feel of an analogue knob (ie there are hard stops at either end unlike the knob on an HT receiver)
4. Enough output for harder to drive headphones in case you decide to use them with anything with less than 96dB/1mW sensitivity, or high impedance
5. Bonus: Crossfeed for reduced fatigue and improved soundstage depth (if you like the overall effect of it)
6. Solid state but it's not a hard/cold-sounding amp, which also happens to be...
7. ...very compact (especially for an office desk), and...
8. ...you won't have to deal with tube noise whether electronic or microphonic (especially on a work desk when you're listening while probably banging away on a keyboard with more than one contact point between your moving hands/arms and the desk)...
9. ....no tubes to accidentally singe your fingers with...
10. ...and a very low price (for what you're willing to spend) of ~$400 in case you want to get the WA22 for use at home
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 10:20 AM Post #13 of 23
First, apart from the cost of the WA22 the real issue with an amp like that being used for IEMs is that it's HUMONGUOUS. It can't even just do well on just any desktop set-up as it's practically the size of a speaker amplifier.

Second, it's alright if you don't understand the explanation (though I'm not sure how to simplify that apart from just going into further detail, which could be even more of an impediment to understanding it) and you're admittedly a noob, then why recommend something for technical reasons you do not sufficiently understand? That will be like, if this was a computer forum, someone asks for what parts to get to play Total War with some light media editing work, and you suggest a G4562 and blow all the money on a GPU just because reviews keep saying that CPU doesn't matter as much when 1) he'll have light workstation tasks running on it and 2) reviewers don't even use Total War and have no numbers to back up the claim that the CPU barely matters (by now even GTA V and Assassin's Creed are showing that CPU core count as well as single core computer performance matters).

Now, to go into further detail on impedance, the very general rule is that the ratio of the load impedance (this is the headphone) to the output impedance (on the amp) needs to be roughly 8:1. I say "general" and "roughly" because 1) unless you understand and do the math, this is just a shorthand for getting a safe number; which is because 2) the effect varies not just in terms of absolute ratios but how high the impedances are since the same ratio for low and high impedance loads will not necessarily have the same effect and 3) even the specs of the headphone and amp can affect what kind of sound shaping will occur as some headphones can end up sounding very different on two otherwise similar topology and high output impedance amp designs (K701 will sound slightly warmer on DV336, but like a tin can on a Little Dot MkII).

Again, and his is something I already put in the prior post, if you start out with an amp that has a low output impedance in the first place, then it will run any impedance properly at least as far as impedance is concerned (output power, distortion+noise levels, and gain are another matter). A variable output impedance is not required to run different impedance loads properly, and by "properly" I mean "does not introduce any changes to the input signal apart from amplifying it into a stronger signal to move the transducers." If you are starting out with a low output impedance amp then it will not reshape the signal and the amplifier does exactly as it's supposed to do.

Reshaping the frequency response in most cases is just more easily done with EQ anyway since you'd have more control, especially with digital EQs and computer sources that are more commonly used now. For example even if you can use a high output impedance and gut lucky enough that it boosts the bass and rolls off the treble on a given low impedance headphoone/IEM (or boosts midrange and rolls off treble on a high impedance headphone), that tends to have a very wide but generally more uniform effect. If the problem with a particularly bright headphone for example is that it has a peak somewhere between 4000hz and 10,000hz, this kind of EQ effect reduces everything in that range, but you're still going to get left with a relative peak in that range, which you could have just trimmed in a more precise (and to a point, surgical) manner by using an equalizer with variable settings.
I do not rely on what I think, I rely on what is written in the description of the sites or commenting on people like you who understand the subject, and yes, I know that the minimum number of output impendance is 8x smaller than the impendance of the headphone, and that is exactly what Ember for example can provide, with variables of 0.5, 35 and 120ohm, but as I said I only recommended these because they are highly praised and not cheap compared to what he is looking for.
guys, yes. having a low output impedance is important for the setup that I am looking for, but while important, that's not the ONLY thing.

these days it seems that finding low impedance headphone amps is not hard. aside from eg. OTL tube amps, many are 2 ohms and most are even lower almost to neglible.

the size and cost (up to ~$2k) doesn't matter that much. no Dave or WA33 obviously as my kidneys are too old to be worth what it would cost. I don't mind something the size of a WA22 as I am not going to be carrying it around. What I don't like is that it attracts a lot of attention. I just want to listen to my music and don't have my officemate looking at it. The MZ2s also look interesting.

However, what I am definitely interested in the best SQ that I can get for that price. If someone tells me that I can get a $300 DIY amp and it will be as good as a $2k pure tube amp, with OT, with tube rectifier. I am not saying it is not possible, but I am definitely skeptical.

Btw I have a iFi micro iDSD BL and I wasn't very excited about the sound signature. a bit dry and dark to my ears, perhaps I am too used to tube as I have been a tube guy for years. I also have a heavily modified Musical Fidelity XCansV2. The original output impedance is high at 33 Ohms. however, it turns out it was artificially made high so I removed the 33 Ohms resistor in series in the output and the tonal balance turns out good. unfortunately it has a lot of hissing noise on the Andromeda. the sound is OK and tubey but I am looking for something even better.

I will clarify the choice of a IEM for a desktop setup instead full size. I understand the choice is unusual. This is my work setup so I will be using it for a long duration over the course of the work day. I have previously used a pair of AT (forgot the model) and also HD580 and my head cannot stand them after less than hour. I get a headache and I have to take them off.

I eventually ended up with IEMs and they are perfect, as they don't leak sound and won't bother my officemates and I can listen for hours on end without fatigue.

So with all that, comes my search for a desktop (or OK to be on a desktop) amp that have low output impedance, and need to be very good SQ.

ps, I might still be considering closed cans in the future if I can find one that doesn't cause fatigue but that will be for another thread for another day!
Let me see if I understand, is not always the translator translates correctly, you do not want to call attention to headphones but you think that an amplifier of that size with five giant "bottles" that shine will not attract attention? If you do not want to call attention then once again I recommend the amplifiers of Garage 1217, they are very small and discreet, at least as much as possible.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 10:33 AM Post #14 of 23
Let me see if I understand, is not always the translator translates correctly, you do not want to call attention to headphones but you think that an amplifier of that size with five giant "bottles" that shine will not attract attention? If you do not want to call attention then once again I recommend the amplifiers of Garage 1217, they are very small and discreet, at least as much as possible.

well, i want it and i don't want it. I want it because it sounds great, and the design is close to what I am looking for, tubes, tube rectifier, and then OT to give a nice low output impedance, and all the review says great soundi don't like it because it calls for too much attention. and that's kinda the reason I haven't bought it and partly why I started this thread! If I had a use for headphones at home I would've bought it but at home I listen to full size system instead.
 
Oct 30, 2017 at 10:41 AM Post #15 of 23
IMO, if SQ is the most important thing, a Hugo 2. It's not "tubey" but I don't believe you'll find that it matters, especially if you value the idea of instruments sounding natural and real. If you *must* have tubey warm, a WA8.

Thanks Currawong. I have been reading your reviews and youtube videos and they are super informative. I will give the Hugo 2 more research and thoughts.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top