Desktop Amp "command center" recommendation

[rpger9756]

I'm on a tight budget and don't have a ton of listening space. In that spirit, I'm looking for something that can be a bit of a "do everything" amplifier. I have done a bunch of Google trawling, but I don't think I can form the right search query to locate the gear I want. As such, I defer to the greater hive-mind for help!

What I want:
L/R 3-pin XLR balanced IN
L/R RCA SE IN

L/R 3-pin XLR balanced OUT
L/R Speaker OUT
4-pin XLR headphone balanced OUT.

~3-5ish watts RMS @ 32 ohms.

500$ or less

BONUS! If it had an integrated DAC that would be amazing.

My goal is to have it drive some really sensitive bookshelf speakers as well as power my balanced headset. The Schiit Ragnarok looks wonderful, but is way more power than I need and 3x what I can afford. The Schiit Jotunheim looks great, too, especially because it has a good DAC in it, but it only has balanced pre-outs, not amp-level outs.

Sub-question...Could I custom-wire a set of speakers into a 4-pin XLR cable? Speakers are usually 2-8 ohm per channel, headphones are like 32ohms...that's gotta not work, right?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I'm on a tight budget and don't have a ton of listening space. In that spirit, I'm looking for something that can be a bit of a "do everything" amplifier. I have done a bunch of Google trawling, but I don't think I can form the right search query to locate the gear I want. As such, I defer to the greater hive-mind for help!

What I want:
L/R 3-pin XLR balanced IN
L/R RCA SE IN

L/R 3-pin XLR balanced OUT
L/R Speaker OUT
4-pin XLR headphone balanced OUT.

~3-5ish watts RMS @ 32 ohms.

500$ or less

That's a tall order for $500. Your best option is to use a separate speaker power amp with a balanced headphone amp with preamp output. Still not going to cost $500 or less.

BONUS! If it had an integrated DAC that would be amazing.

Schiit Jotunheim with balanced DAC, feed the variable line output to an Emotiva power amp to drive the speakers.

AudioGD NFB-28, use preamp out to Emotiva power amp to drive speakers; still has XLR balanced output

My goal is to have it drive some really sensitive bookshelf speakers as well as power my balanced headset.

What's the XLR line output and speaker amp output for in the same device? You either use the XLR variable output to drive active monitors, or RCA/XLR variable preamp output to feed a power amp (ie not an integrated amp, no preamp built in) to drive the speakers.

If your speakers are very high sensitivity, you might have a problem with the Emotivas as they're high output Class A/B's. if they have noise, you only have two options if you only have a variable preamp output to work with:

1. A First Watt amp, or anything else by Pass Labs or similar, running in Class A at headphone amp-levels of low noise output

2. An expensive Class D power amp

If you get the AudioGD, set the output to fixed voltage line output, and then run a low power integrated amp. Even Class T (D) amps have very low noise (though with relatively high distortion vs Class A) that some 8wpc amps can easily drive high efficiency horn or fullrange speakers. Or get a vintage amp. It's really hard to find a low output, low noise power amp since most manufacturers will only make power amps with the perception that buyers will only go through the trouble of using and spending on separates if they can't get enough power out of an integrated amp, some of which can output 100wpc in pure Class A now (ex Unison Research Unico), so even if there are some out there, they're designed for insanely low noise (First Watt) or very high power and high efficiency but low noise at low output levels (Bel Canto and other Class "T" amps).

Alternately, you can probably find someone who can modify an integrated Class "T" board and have the preamp section bypassed and get the input to go right into the output stage, this way you can hook it up to the Jotunheim.

The Schiit Ragnarok looks wonderful, but is way more power than I need and 3x what I can afford.

It was designed to drive practically any medium sensitivity speakers in somewhat larger rooms as well as hard to drive headphones using the same output stage, so naturally even if headphones have a higher load impedance, you're still starting off with a relatively high output level at 8ohms.

The Schiit Jotunheim looks great, too, especially because it has a good DAC in it, but it only has balanced pre-outs, not amp-level outs.

What's an "amp level outs?" You mean speaker amp output? You'll have to get a Ragnarok, or just get a power amp like the ones Emotiva sells and hook it up to the Jotunheim (or similar device).

Sub-question...Could I custom-wire a set of speakers into a 4-pin XLR cable? Speakers are usually 2-8 ohm per channel, headphones are like 32ohms...that's gotta not work, right?

Power might not be a problem if your speakers are well above 93dB/1mW at 1M and you're not sitting too far away. Problem is how stable that output stage will be when driving an 8ohm load, much less one that has wide impedance swings down to 2ohms depending on the frequency being played.

 

[rpger9756]

Thanks so much for the advice! It has been exceptionally illuminating.
Maybe I'll back up and explain my objective...
Currently, I've got a set of HD598's I recabled to an XLR output. It's being driven by a Gold Lion re-tubed xDuoo-TA10. It sounds OK, but with the HD598's characteristic roll-off in the uppers, coupled with the further warming of the tube, it just lacks the punch and clarity of the Denon receiver powering my home theater rig, especially in the upper end. Problem is, the Denon is HELLA noisy, and at any reasonable detail-revealing listening volume, I can start hearing an incessant hiss.
So there's my problem, but there's more. I eventually want to get a set of Magnepan MMGi's for a dedicated listening space, but that is a bit far off, so I want to build up to that. Currently, I have a desk in a little cove behind my projector screen that I do all my headphone listening in. I wanted to pick up a pair o fDayton Audio B652 (87dB), then scale to a set of Elac Debut B6's (86dB) to set up on my desk and do some non-headphone listening on. So, my scheme was to try and get an all-in-one to start me out that I could eventually use for my scaling up to a bigger stack to eventually power BOTH my headphones AND a full-range listening rig.
I don't necessarily care if it has a DAC because I can set my xDuoo to do that. It drives a single AKM4490 (Same as half the Jotunheim's "Balanced" config), so I could pass it single-ended into an amp if I wanted. BUT, if a new solution had an integrated DAC, that'd be great, too, cuz then I could sell off the xDuoo or keep it in the rack should I ever pick up a set of the Audeze LCD-2 I've been lusting for. I also want it to be FET-driven. I'm a fanboy of my HD598's, so I need something that can shore up the upper register more, as it just gets too muddy with a tube. BUT, once I DO finally get into a bigger speaker, I want to be able to bypass the integrated amp with balanced pre-outs so I can still have a power amp for my headphones, or use it as a pre-amp for my speakers, hence the "command center."

Sorry for the wall of text, I know it's a lot! I realize that essentially...I just wish I could find a Balanced-DAC Jotunheim that has Speaker Outs, or a 1/3rd-priced Ragnarok amp with the same roughly the same I/O config (4-pin XLR headphone jack, a set of speaker outs, a set of RCA SE in's, a set of of balanced 3-pin XLR in's, and a set of 3-pin XLR out's.) I am just super unfamiliar with anything except the a few really popular brands, (hence me leaning on Schiit examples,) and my Google-Fu is just not good enough to find what I was hoping to find.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Maybe I'll back up and explain my objective...
Currently, I've got a set of HD598's I recabled to an XLR output.

OK...stop right there for a minute. You did a full recable and drilled another hole into the other earcup and are running independent L- and R- from the XLR plug to each ear, right? And not just replace the 3.5mm TRS plug with a 4pin XLR?

Currently, I've got a set of HD598's I recabled to an XLR output. It's being driven by a Gold Lion re-tubed xDuoo-TA10. It sounds OK, but with the HD598's characteristic roll-off in the uppers, coupled with the further warming of the tube, it just lacks the punch and clarity of the Denon receiver powering my home theater rig, especially in the upper end. Problem is, the Denon is HELLA noisy, and at any reasonable detail-revealing listening volume, I can start hearing an incessant hiss.
So there's my problem, but there's more. I eventually want to get a set of Magnepan MMGi's for a dedicated listening space, but that is a bit far off, so I want to build up to that. Currently, I have a desk in a little cove behind my projector screen that I do all my headphone listening in. I wanted to pick up a pair o fDayton Audio B652 (87dB), then scale to a set of Elac Debut B6's (86dB) to set up on my desk and do some non-headphone listening on. So, my scheme was to try and get an all-in-one to start me out that I could eventually use for my scaling up to a bigger stack to eventually power BOTH my headphones AND a full-range listening rig.
I don't necessarily care if it has a DAC because I can set my xDuoo to do that. It drives a single AKM4490 (Same as half the Jotunheim's "Balanced" config), so I could pass it single-ended into an amp if I wanted. BUT, if a new solution had an integrated DAC, that'd be great, too, cuz then I could sell off the xDuoo or keep it in the rack should I ever pick up a set of the Audeze LCD-2 I've been lusting for. I also want it to be FET-driven. I'm a fanboy of my HD598's, so I need something that can shore up the upper register more, as it just gets too muddy with a tube. BUT, once I DO finally get into a bigger speaker, I want to be able to bypass the integrated amp with balanced pre-outs so I can still have a power amp for my headphones, or use it as a pre-amp for my speakers, hence the "command center."

Sorry for the wall of text, I know it's a lot! I realize that essentially...I just wish I could find a Balanced-DAC Jotunheim that has Speaker Outs, or a 1/3rd-priced Ragnarok amp with the same roughly the same I/O config (4-pin XLR headphone jack, a set of speaker outs, a set of RCA SE in's, a set of of balanced 3-pin XLR in's, and a set of 3-pin XLR out's.) I am just super unfamiliar with anything except the a few really popular brands, (hence me leaning on Schiit examples,) and my Google-Fu is just not good enough to find what I was hoping to find.

You're not gonna find a balanced drive headphone amp that also works as a speaker amp for less than the Ragnarok. it's literally the only one left out there. There was one AudioGD that sold for less than that but it was discontinued.

And even then any amps like those will be 2ch, and can't drive your HT system; and given how HT systems today tend to not have SPDIF outputs or even inputs, you can't wire your source/s to just the HT receiver or the DAC and then piggyback one to the other. Your best option really is to just run multiple outputs from your sources and into either chain. Or spend a lot of money on a Pre-Pro specifically designed to be a hub for both HT and stereo systems, which will then require that you have power amps to drive the speakers in the HT and stereo set ups, with SPDIF output to the DAC feeding the headphone amp...but that kind of pre-pro will probably cost you as much as the Ragnarok.

 

[rpger9756]

OK...stop right there for a minute. You did a full recable and drilled another hole into the other earcup and are running independent L- and R- from the XLR plug to each ear, right? And not just replace the 3.5mm TRS plug with a 4pin XLR?

Yes. Actually, I disassembled the entire chassis, removed the old Litz wire and the solder shoulder for the removable cable, then I soldered 18-guage wire directly to the speaker pads and ran it through a shielded Honeywell wire and a gold-plated Neutrik 4-pin XLR end. Didn't need to drill a new hole in the ear, just needed to drill out the brass pivots and accept a bit of bulging in the headband to accept the 18-gauge wire.

(the red Silastic is for strain relief but doesn't work well. I am still not finished with the build. Need to get some woven sleeving and some shrinkwrap to finish off the aesthetic. Probably some fine aluminum mesh with a ground wire leading into the grounding lug on the XLR for even more shielding.

You're not gonna find a balanced drive headphone amp that also works as a speaker amp for less than the Ragnarok. it's literally the only one left out there. There was one AudioGD that sold for less than that but it was discontinued.

And even then any amps like those will be 2ch, and can't drive your HT system; and given how HT systems today tend to not have SPDIF outputs or even inputs, you can't wire your source/s to just the HT receiver or the DAC and then piggyback one to the other. Your best option really is to just run multiple outputs from your sources and into either chain. Or spend a lot of money on a Pre-Pro specifically designed to be a hub for both HT and stereo systems, which will then require that you have power amps to drive the speakers in the HT and stereo set ups, with SPDIF output to the DAC feeding the headphone amp...but that kind of pre-pro will probably cost you as much as the Ragnarok.

Oh, I wasn't going to drive my HT system through my audiophile system. Different animals. I don't much care about sonic perfection for my HT system. The room is all wrong. I have a separate rig on an isolated 10-gauge, 20AMP breaker with noise harvesters on it that I have wired up right now. So, if I can't get away with an all-in-one, I'll probably just pick up a Jotunheim and then upgrade to a Ragnarok when I can squirrel enough away for it. Maybe I'll try running speakers off the balanced XLR for my headset . Sucks that they don't have an all-in-one, though. Was hoping I could phase in more piecemeal to help train my ears.

 

[rpger9756]

The Honeywell Genesis cable I'm using, if you're curious. https://www.honeywellcable.com/CatalogDocuments/1215.pdf

 

[PaganDL]

Yes. Actually, I disassembled the entire chassis, removed the old Litz wire and the solder shoulder for the removable cable, then I soldered 18-guage wire directly to the speaker pads and ran it through a shielded Honeywell wire and a gold-plated Neutrik 4-pin XLR end. Didn't need to drill a new hole in the ear, just needed to drill out the brass pivots and accept a bit of bulging in the headband to accept the 18-gauge wire.

Okay Rpger9756,

What you've done is really unsafe though its still begs the question why you would do this in the first place...
This is not question by the way...
Directly soldering onto a headphone like this without what seems like no real grounding or shielding, not to mention no actually connector is asking to be potentially electrocuted.
Also, given tube amps, especially cheap ones don't have the greatest ground in the first place only literally adds fuel to the fire so to speak.

But that's just my two cents.

 

[rpger9756]

Okay Rpger9756,

What you've done is really unsafe though its still begs the question why you would do this in the first place...
This is not question by the way...
Directly soldering onto a headphone like this without what seems like no real grounding or shielding, not to mention no actually connector is asking to be potentially electrocuted.
Also, given tube amps, especially cheap ones don't have the greatest ground in the first place only literally adds fuel to the fire so to speak.

But that's just my two cents.

Ummm... I don't quite think you understand what i did. The nature of a balanced headphone is that each speaker gets an individual return line instead of a shared ground return. I have done nothing to modify the circuit. It is a common mod on my headset. I removed some extraneous wiring and replaced the stock wiring with thicker, BETTER shielded cables. The Amp is not poorly made and has solid grounding. I am in no danger of eletrocution whatsoever.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Yes. Actually, I disassembled the entire chassis, removed the old Litz wire and the solder shoulder for the removable cable, then I soldered 18-guage wire directly to the speaker pads and ran it through a shielded Honeywell wire and a gold-plated Neutrik 4-pin XLR end. Didn't need to drill a new hole in the ear, just needed to drill out the brass pivots and accept a bit of bulging in the headband to accept the 18-gauge wire.
-----
(the red Silastic is for strain relief but doesn't work well. I am still not finished with the build. Need to get some woven sleeving and some shrinkwrap to finish off the aesthetic. Probably some fine aluminum mesh with a ground wire leading into the grounding lug on the XLR for even more shielding.

OK so you didn't make it a dual entry cable, but is the wire passing the signal to the right driver independently connected to the R- on the cable, instead of how the R- and L- on single entry headphones go into one terminal for the shared GND on a 3-conductor cable (or how SE dual entry cables have four conductors all the way through to the plug, but are wired to the shared GND on the TRS plug)?

Just making sure you're actually running it with teh R- and L- completely separate because if those cross you can damage the amp, or that amp isn't even wired for balanced operation but they just included an XLR jack (like one of the Massdrop Cavallis except they were very clear that they just used a second XLR running SE to make it convenient).

Oh, I wasn't going to drive my HT system through my audiophile system. Different animals. I don't much care about sonic perfection for my HT system. The room is all wrong. I have a separate rig on an isolated 10-gauge, 20AMP breaker with noise harvesters on it that I have wired up right now. So, if I can't get away with an all-in-one, I'll probably just pick up a Jotunheim and then upgrade to a Ragnarok when I can squirrel enough away for it. Maybe I'll try running speakers off the balanced XLR for my headset . Sucks that they don't have an all-in-one, though. Was hoping I could phase in more piecemeal to help train my ears.

No my point is that even if you don't drive the headphone through those, if you're looking for an all in one "Command Center" you might as well separate the two systems entirely save for multiple outputs from the audio server.

 

[PaganDL]

Ummm... I don't quite think you understand what i did. The nature of a balanced headphone is that each speaker gets an individual return line instead of a shared ground return. I have done nothing to modify the circuit. It is a common mod on my headset. I removed some extraneous wiring and replaced the stock wiring with thicker, BETTER shielded cables. The Amp is not poorly made and has solid grounding. I am in no danger of eletrocution whatsoever.

Hi Rpger9756,

Apologies if I wasn't clear...to echo @ProtegeManiac on both points, the first, generally when balanced mods are done to headphones, there is usually an accomodation made for seperating the audio signal from the right & the left channel phyiscally instead of just by the ground inrespective whether it's shared or not for various reasons aside from obvious electrocution, the other being a good signal path regardless of shielding, etc. This is why it's better to physically & clearly separate the left & right channel instead of going through a single entry especially if the original purpose wasn't for balanced out in the first place.
The second, unclear seperation of signal path does damage the amp & no amount of shielding is going to fix that if something gets crossed or if there is a voltage bleed. As ProtegeManiac said, that amp you have isn't wired for balanced output anyway despite having an XLR for convenience.
So sure you may be getter a 'better' signal which is seriously debatable.
But this doesn't mean it is & there is a danger of extra current passing through from the amp & the headphones unncessarily for no reason.
As a final note, what I meant about no connecter bit is these plugs exist for a reason & in some cases do serve as an extra grounding point so if the cable is accidentally moved in a manner it's not supposed to, one, it doesn't get yanked free easily &/or expose any 'hot wiring'.

This is just my humble opinion, take it as you will.

 

[rpger9756]

I have 2C running to the right. I disasembled the chassis to run it. 2C to the left, as well, and all 4C running to the XLR, no shared paths. The marketing material for the TA-10 says its ful-LY balanced, but its not "full balanced" as audiophiles like to say, it only has one decode/amplfy chain. I believe there is a harmonic inverter on the XLR stage to get the signals out of phase and not two separately produced signals, so it helps with long cable runs but does not get the noise reducing benefit of an end-to-end balanced circuit.

I was hoping there was a way to do it all in one but i am now resigned to have to do separates.