Denon AH-7200
Oct 5, 2017 at 4:40 AM Post #1,291 of 3,155
not sure that a pad change can modify the situation if he doesn't like the sound sig so much......

Jimster480: can I respectfully ask what are your current reference headphone, so that to understand if it make sense maybe to invest some more $$ on the Denon or just give up with it and maybe concentrate on another hphone
 
Oct 5, 2017 at 10:04 AM Post #1,292 of 3,155
So what are all the mods you have done?
I finally have an Amp which can drive this headphone just fine and I straight don't like it.
Its really dark with alot of bass emphasis, the AH-MM400 sounds better overall...
All my mods clean up and flatten sound.
They are based upon a separate driver modification which totally changes it by boosting trebles and sensitivity.
So my mods would have very limited benifits for you...

If you feel the bass is too blurry for you,
For now I would goto pharmacy and get earwax for yourself... lol sorry just kidding..
Ok so,

Really though, you can definitely alleviate this problem of yous (elevated lower spectrum).
Goto pharmacy and buy surgical cloth tape of highest quality breathable.
Then cut and place over this one hole:
20171005_095910.jpg

But do not open the center hole in middle like me,
As that would make driver more loose and need more damping..
 
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Oct 5, 2017 at 12:01 PM Post #1,293 of 3,155
not sure that a pad change can modify the situation if he doesn't like the sound sig so much......

Jimster480: can I respectfully ask what are your current reference headphone, so that to understand if it make sense maybe to invest some more $$ on the Denon or just give up with it and maybe concentrate on another hphone

This is my first true reference headphone.
Other than this I have 1More quad, 1More triple, Panasonic RP-HD10, Denon AH-MM400, Yamaha YH-2, Panasonic RP-HT360 (my oldest headphone).

The thing I don't like is it has this specific ringing at like 3-5k I'm not sure the specific frequency. It gives me a headache within 10 minutes especially with classical / piano / violin music.

The bass is perfect and controlled but there is alot more bass than anything else. Looking at the frequency response it's a flat but downward line. Which is exactly how this headphone sounds.
The MM-400 is more of an actually flat response. But the D7200 has more detail.
But the response is just one factor, I could deal with a curve like this but not the incessant ringing.

When it comes to Classical and some Piano jazz I like the Yamaha YH-2 the most as it's mid centric with even more detail there than the D7200.
 
Oct 5, 2017 at 2:47 PM Post #1,294 of 3,155
In that case try the Chinese pads. $25 is perhaps worth of giving the D7200 another chance.
However, I'd say you might also have a problem with amp synergy.
We tried it with the Topping A30, HTC 10, JDS Labs O2 and Topping DX7.
I have a Magni 3 coming by saturday and we also tried a Casio keyboard (not sure the model but its pretty high end).

The ringing is definitely there
 
Oct 5, 2017 at 3:19 PM Post #1,295 of 3,155
This is my first true reference headphone.
Other than this I have 1More quad, 1More triple, Panasonic RP-HD10, Denon AH-MM400, Yamaha YH-2, Panasonic RP-HT360 (my oldest headphone).

The thing I don't like is it has this specific ringing at like 3-5k I'm not sure the specific frequency. It gives me a headache within 10 minutes especially with classical / piano / violin music.

The bass is perfect and controlled but there is alot more bass than anything else. Looking at the frequency response it's a flat but downward line. Which is exactly how this headphone sounds.
The MM-400 is more of an actually flat response. But the D7200 has more detail.
But the response is just one factor, I could deal with a curve like this but not the incessant ringing.

When it comes to Classical and some Piano jazz I like the Yamaha YH-2 the most as it's mid centric with even more detail there than the D7200.

ouch, unfrotunately I don't know the other headphones you have, so I cannot do any educated reccomendation sorry.

what I can suggest is that if you are used to the sound of your other headphones, and you like it, then don't change. there aren't really such things as high-end or low-end headphones, there are just headphones that we like or we don't like. enjoy your music and be happy!!!!
 
Oct 5, 2017 at 3:25 PM Post #1,296 of 3,155
ouch, unfrotunately I don't know the other headphones you have, so I cannot do any educated reccomendation sorry.

what I can suggest is that if you are used to the sound of your other headphones, and you like it, then don't change. there aren't really such things as high-end or low-end headphones, there are just headphones that we like or we don't like. enjoy your music and be happy!!!!
Well headphones have different levels of details and frequency responses.
Different levels of comfort and design, high end headphones are supposed to be / typically are better.
But yes it doesn't mean that everyone will like any high end or low end headphone or any headphone because music is also based on tastes.

This headphone has very controlled and full bass with a nice roll off, but the mids and highs are certainly more recessed although there is a good level of detail in the high end.
Like I stated before its this ringing that makes the headphones actually unusable for me.
I didn't experience this with my Topping A30 (atleast not as much) but the output impedance is too high (for these headphones) and the headphones sound very muddy (which is a normal characteristic of high output impedance / impedance mismatch).

When changing it to a source that has 0-3 output impedance there are alot more details and much better bass that is very clearly defined. But then the 5khz ring comes out alot more often.
 
Oct 6, 2017 at 9:25 AM Post #1,297 of 3,155
not sure that a pad change can modify the situation if he doesn't like the sound sig so much......

Pads are part of the acoustic environment, and may change the sound sig in similar way (but to lesser extent) as a listening room is changing the sound sig of speakers. You get air volume, shape, damping mass, acoustic impedance, reflections etc. It is mostly the harmonic structure that may change, the FR to a lesser extent, though it may be subjectively enough for a change. Like listening rooms don't make bad speakers sound good, pads won't make a bad headphone sound good, but may make a good one sound great, and that seems to be the case with the D7200.

There are a few headphones - like the D7200, TH900, Hifimans etc - that sound acceptable or even good without pads to start with. They will "like" thin pads and are easier to fine-tune.
Others - like Stax 007 and other electrostats - sound absolutely crap without pads: they need to be designed in a specific way.

In the case of the D7200, IMHO the midrange ringing should be handled by cups damping, but in my experience it may be tamed by inserting a 2-3 mm thin wool felt or carbon foam piece (about 15-25 mm each side) under the front part of the pads.

But you are right that the basic sound sig comes through anyway. Which IMHO is not bad at all with the D7200. The original pads sound darker, with more midbass, and with some midrange ringing or honkiness that is annoying with bright piano recordings.

What I am listening now:
- Chinese pads, directly glued to the housing with double sided adhesive (non-marking, de- and re-mountable)
- 20x25x2 mm thick carbon foam piece under the front part of the pads
- very loose Twaron Angelhair in the cups (one can skip this).
Occasionally I put back the original pads with the original plastic rings but I usually change back soon.

The end result is very pleasing, linear, with bigger sound stage and more immediate, more enjoyable sound.
In comparison, my modded TH900 is more colored, but somewhat more refined, with higher sub-bass impact and more treble - not dissimilar from the older D7000. If it wasn't for its well known notches, it would be the ultimate closed can. Both are excellent, and I prefer them over other, considerably more expensive closed cans, including e.g. the Sony Z1R (because of its problems or my personal incompatibility) and Audeze XC (ditto).

Between the modded TH900 and D7200, I prefer the D7200 for acoustic, instrumental and some classical, and the TH900 for other genres. If I had to keep only one, I would be in trouble to choose, but the linearity of the D7200 is important to me (having several e-stat rigs at home), so maybe that one. Not a small compliment to a headphone that is much cheaper than the TH900. Maybe the K872 can compete, that too is like double the D7200 price.

In stock versions of similar semi-closed cans, my order of preference: D7200 < Massdrop TX00 < TH900 < Z1R. In modded versions, Massdrop TX00 < Z1R < TH900 ~ D7200. It is my subjective preference, YMMV.

I may try a good e-stat driver (Stax SRX Mk3 or Gamma Pro) in an Onken loaded enclosure like the TH900 (and D7200), perhaps it would be the ultimate (but limited usability) closed can. The D7200 still rules.

Rumor: Sennheiser might be working on a high end closed can (just as AKG made the K872, the closed version of the 812)... though it is expected to be quite more expensive than the 800S, let alone the D7200/TH900. So the D7200 still rules up to twice or thrice its price range.
 
Oct 6, 2017 at 9:41 AM Post #1,298 of 3,155
basically agree on everything, even if my personal order of preference is somewhat different.... I put the D7200 (stock) and the Z1R (D7200 cable) basically on par with different sound sig but similar sq, and use them with different music. of course it all depends also on personal ears/gears, the important thing is that we like the music we hear :wink: :)
 
Oct 6, 2017 at 4:46 PM Post #1,300 of 3,155
I made some more measurements and it seems that both with the original cups damping and the Twaron Angelhair (TA) cups damping there is some ringing around 2-4 kHz, although the TA does help. However, I have found a good compromise by putting a little Twaron Angelhair around the original damping in the cups, in order that all the wood is covered. Now the ringing is almost completely gone and it's basically inaudible.

With this change, I have tested again all combinations of pads and assembly methods, and found out the original pads with the plastic mounting rings sound perhaps a tad better or more preferable than the Chinese (small differences in the FR).

In conclusion, Denon was just some more cups damping away from reaching measurement optimum.

However, sometimes the good measurements sound bland and flat compared to more lively signatures (like the TH900). I have to get used with this sound now, but it's definitely very good. Of course, each with their preference.
BTW the TH900 seems to scale better with amplification quality, but the D7200 is no slouch either.

D7200 with fixed cups damping,
red: with Chinese pad
green: with original pad
D7200-pads.jpg


CSD, original pads:
D7200-csd.jpg


Impulse, original pads:
D7200-imp.jpg


Distortion, original pads:

D7200-dist.jpg


IMHO these are very good measurements, especially for a closed can.
The sound quality matches them, too: the rest is personal preference.
 
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Oct 6, 2017 at 7:56 PM Post #1,301 of 3,155
I made some more measurements and it seems that both with the original cups damping and the Twaron Angelhair (TA) cups damping there is some ringing around 2-4 kHz, although the TA does help. However, I have found a good compromise by putting a little Twaron Angelhair around the original damping in the cups, in order that all the wood is covered. Now the ringing is almost completely gone and it's basically inaudible.

With this change, I have tested again all combinations of pads and assembly methods, and found out the original pads with the plastic mounting rings sound perhaps a tad better or more preferable than the Chinese (small differences in the FR).

In conclusion, Denon was just some more cups damping away from reaching measurement optimum.

However, sometimes the good measurements sound bland and flat compared to more lively signatures (like the TH900). I have to get used with this sound now, but it's definitely very good. Of course, each with their preference.
BTW the TH900 seems to scale better with amplification quality, but the D7200 is no slouch either.

D7200 with fixed cups damping,
red: with Chinese pad
green: with original pad


CSD, original pads:


Impulse, original pads:


Distortion, original pads:



IMHO these are very good measurements, especially for a closed can.
The sound quality matches them, too: the rest is personal preference.

Where can I get this angelhair to fix the ringing?
That is what I need removed the most.
 
Oct 7, 2017 at 6:01 PM Post #1,302 of 3,155
In modded versions, Massdrop TX00 < Z1R < TH900 ~ D7200. It is my subjective preference
Ooo, I am very interested in what/where are the mods for the massdrop TX00, as I read many like those the best.
I saw the purple heart and was fooled from a close distance to believe it was a foxtex th900! Lol.
It was stock unit and beautiful so not up to par in sound.
As a side note, I did a pic comparison and found those massdrop models, although they have a biocelulous driver,
They had the smallest motor structure and magnet.
The th900 had the largest untill both the ZMF Eikon and this Dennon 7200 came along.
I owned both and although I loved the Eikon,
I preferred the Dennon sonically and also the driver itself is the best visually with largest motor structure and magnet and widest voice coil , and newest driver diaphragm, and being made in japan quality...
:)


IMHO these are very good measurements, especially for a closed can.
Excellent Excellent, just excellent post .
I see you are measuring at a low level.
I have been measuring a bit higher, around 90db at 1khz and noticed the cup ringing and and hidden issues more prevalent at louder volumes which I probably would not have that loud in my ear, lol,
But it is a point of reference I have used according to others over at another site.

We can see in your CSD the slight ringing around 2.5k which ends up appearing as a slight dip in the frequency response,
So I believe it may not be a real dip, but an anomaly.
Also I quite agree the 7200 is extremely good can for the money (if you get around $700 or less) because it does compete with the best.

Where can I get this angelhair to fix the ringing?
That is what I need removed the most.
It was so hard for me to find this myself ,
As I am in the US and was not easy unless your living in Europe..

I was using wool in it's place before (if you can't get a hold of some).
 
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Oct 7, 2017 at 6:13 PM Post #1,303 of 3,155
Ooo, I am very interested in what/where are the mods for the massdrop TX00, as I read many like those the best.
I saw the purple heart and was fooled from a close distance to believe it was a foxtex th900! Lol.
It was stock unit and beautiful so not up to par in sound.
As a side note, I did a pic comparison and found those massdrop models, although they have a biocelulous driver,
They had the smallest motor structure and magnet.
The th900 had the largest untill both the ZMF Eikon and this Dennon 7200 came along.
I owned both and although I loved the Eikon,
I preferred the Dennon sonically and also the driver itself is the best visually with largest motor structure and magnet and widest voice coil , and newest driver diaphragm, and being made in japan quality...
:)



Excellent Excellent, just excellent post .
I see you are measuring at a low level.
I have been measuring a bit higher, around 90db at 1khz and noticed the cup ringing and and hidden issues more prevalent at louder volumes which I probably would not have that loud in my ear, lol,
But it is a point of reference I have used according to others over at another site.

We can see in your CSD the slight ringing around 2.5k which ends up appearing as a slight dip in the frequency response,
So I believe it may not be a real dip, but an anomaly.
Also I quite agree the 7200 is extremely good can for the money (if you get around $700 or less) because it does compete with the best.


It was so hard for me to find this myself ,
As I am in the US and was not easy unless your living in Europe..

I was using wool in it's place before (if you can't get a hold of some).
Any specific kind of wool?
I can easily obtain wool.
This angelhair I have no idea where to even look for it.
 
Oct 8, 2017 at 12:45 PM Post #1,304 of 3,155
Anyone compared the the D7200 to the LCD-XC? I'm curious about this comparison.
 

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