Thenewguy007
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There was talk of a possible upgrade to do DSD512, but that was almost a year ago & there has been no word since.
DENAFRIPS Terminator: the King of R2R dac
- Thread starter krell1967
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There was talk of a possible upgrade to do DSD512, but that was almost a year ago & there has been no word since.
smodtactical
Headphoneus Supremus
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I think Alvin said no.
As for pc audio, do you guys recommend any steamer or network player ? Was thinking sotm 200 ultra.
Maybe I can find a great used player.
johnzz4
500+ Head-Fier
The US based rep, Mike Powell, said that the Terminator has user-upgradeable firmware. That said, I have no idea if anything is in the works.
audiobill
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Many DACs may have upgradeable firmware, but few have their conversion scheme significantly implemented via firmware the way PS Audio does which allows such upgrades to change its level of performance. Most DACs have their digital conversion primarily defined in their hardware implementation. Firmware can control the user interface, functionality, etc. but isn't always linked to a DAC's digital conversion.
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smodtactical
Headphoneus Supremus
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About me (audio experience history)
I’ve been in the audio game for about 10 years. I am mainly am a PC music lover. I just love listening to high end audio at my desk. I started with a superlux 668B and a cheap laptop. Even with those humble headphones I remember being surprised how much better they sounded over my basic laptop speakers and ever since those days I always strived to take incremental steps in improving my audio experience hopefully while enjoying all along.
My first serious audiophile headphones were the beyerdynamic DT990 pro 250 ohm again running out of a laptop. I was shocked by how incredible these sounded compared to my superlux. At the time the $200 CAD I spent on them seemed excessive but the reviews were positive. Little did I know how much more cash would be involved in further gains in sound quality! I met @Shahrose on head fi at my workplace at the time and he gave me incredible insights (and continues to do so to this day) that helped me along on my journey. He espoused the importance of a dedicated discrete headphone amplifier + dac which were all foreign concepts to me. Being a pc audio guy… my only thought was… why not just get a high end audio sound card? Anyhow I ended up with the Burson Conductor SL9018. Again I was impressed with the jump in sound quality.
Continuing my journey I transitioned to the HD650 and was shocked by the mid range detail and warm inviting sound. I now had a persective on warmer brighter (DT990) and darker lusher sound (HD650). I erred on the side of the HD650 until I eventually went to my true TOTL headphone the HD800S. This was a massive jump not only in quality but in price and I was quite shocked that I was willing to spend well over $1500 CAD on a pair of headphones. What happened to the days where I was shocked at spending $200 CAD? LOL. The 800S gave me a soundstage and detail level which were just not even comprehensible. All my music sounded so much more interesting, 3d, layered, engaging and nuanced.
After enjoying the HD800S for some time I began to miss the warmth of the HD 650 and moved on to the ZMF Auter and atticus and love these headphones for the added warmth and musicality they bring. Now I have a spectrum of headphones based on my mood and genre from bright and detailed to romantic and dark (800S, Auteur, Atticus).
I progressed in my amp/dac upgrading endeavours as well going to an HDV 820 which was a massive jump up in quality from the Burson. Everything got better, sound stage, holography, detail… it was slap you in your face better versus the already competent burson. But this quickly made me hungry for more and to see how far I could go.
Enter Terminator, HE9 (Chi-fi stack)
After months of research, reading, talking to as many audio experts as I could and auditioning some gear (moon neo 430 HAD)... I settled on the Audio GD HE9 and the Denafrips Terminator. It was an expensive upgrade for me but I hoped to once and for all end the endless cycle of buying gear, enjoying it, reading about the next potential upgrade and buying again.
I eagerly hooked up the stack with some kimber cable hero interconnects and a ifi mercury 3.0 cable from my desktop running flacs on foobar and had a listen directly against my HDV 820 using all my headphones.
I want to be 100% transparent and honest here, my first impressions were negative. The stack just didn’t sound that much better than the HDV 820.I was quite worried as I spent so much money on this stack and wanted 1 more ‘smack in the face’ upgrade like I got from the burson -> hdv 820. After months of listening I realized a few things. At this high level, to really push further I would have to improve my source… files and the audio stream. When I say files I don’t simply mean just higher bitrate flacs or other formats but listening to music that is exceptionally well mastered. You can listen to a 96 khz flac of dave brubeck and it will sound similar to youtube. But with truly well mastered music wow.
So I queue up Chris botti - What I fall in love. This was the first track that convinced me of how great the Terminator - HE9 combination was. Next to the HDV820 the soundstage grew by about 30%. Instruments had an incredible definition and they each had their own space… it was almost as if you were walking through the stage and looking at each performer and respecting the sound from each instrument individually. The HDV820 sounds fantastic don’t get me wrong but the microdetail and ability to peer into the core of the music is simply mystifying with the Denafrips termintor -> HE9 stack. I could really appreciate the reverberation of the music off the walls of the space in which it was played. I added an ifi ipurifier 2.0 to the chain and the this usb device seemed to enhance performance even further with respect to separation and clarity, moreso than when applied to the HDV. Finally I was getting what I paid for! Overall I would say it was a clear 20-25% gain in sound quality. Going back to HDV 820 I was absolutely missing some magic to the sound… that last bit of refinement and detail which once you get used to it… its hard to live without.
I then asked how much of this improvement came from the dac vs the amp. I connected the terminator to my HDV 820 and used it as the dac. I noticed the soundstage was slightly larger but what stood out most when A-Bing between the internal and external dac was the amazing definition and microdetail of the terminator. It was undeniable… it had me constantly trying to turn up the amp when using the built in dac to try and fully appreciate it… the maracas, brushes on the drums.. cymbal splashes. Detail retrieval and imaging was clearly superior on the Terminator.. unmistakably so. However… this combination was absolutely not as good as the Terminator HE9 stack. Going back to the chi-fi stack the sound stage opens up tremendously and I can appreciate the details even better. To me the gain in SQ is perhaps an equal contribution of the two asian artisans. The gains are also larger on the ZMF headphones which makes sense as the HDV is tuned and optimized for the HD800S which gives it an amazing synergy.. but what one still bested by the Terminator and HE9.
Sampling much of my music the gain in quality from the stack to the HDV 820 largely depends on the mastering quality of the original music and the type of music. Music that is more synthy and washed out sounding… differences are harder to appreciate. Older music in general again the difference is minor. But well mastered vocals, instruments and complex electronically support music like anything from Davol brilliantly highlights the chifi stacks superiority.
In all this though I am left with the feeling there is still something to discover. As previously mentioned… optimizing my upstream components I feel may yield the true power of the Terminator especially. My next step now is to try a TOTL network streamer to see if the complete isolation from my desktop and getting away from usb all together may complete a potentially gargantuan jump in sound quality from my now defeated but still excellent HDV 820.
Thank you to Alvin and Kingwa for their excellent support during the purchase process and ongoing support… especially Alvin who is extremely responsive! I will report further if anything meaningful happens to my chain or if there are any new discoveries.
I’ve been in the audio game for about 10 years. I am mainly am a PC music lover. I just love listening to high end audio at my desk. I started with a superlux 668B and a cheap laptop. Even with those humble headphones I remember being surprised how much better they sounded over my basic laptop speakers and ever since those days I always strived to take incremental steps in improving my audio experience hopefully while enjoying all along.
My first serious audiophile headphones were the beyerdynamic DT990 pro 250 ohm again running out of a laptop. I was shocked by how incredible these sounded compared to my superlux. At the time the $200 CAD I spent on them seemed excessive but the reviews were positive. Little did I know how much more cash would be involved in further gains in sound quality! I met @Shahrose on head fi at my workplace at the time and he gave me incredible insights (and continues to do so to this day) that helped me along on my journey. He espoused the importance of a dedicated discrete headphone amplifier + dac which were all foreign concepts to me. Being a pc audio guy… my only thought was… why not just get a high end audio sound card? Anyhow I ended up with the Burson Conductor SL9018. Again I was impressed with the jump in sound quality.
Continuing my journey I transitioned to the HD650 and was shocked by the mid range detail and warm inviting sound. I now had a persective on warmer brighter (DT990) and darker lusher sound (HD650). I erred on the side of the HD650 until I eventually went to my true TOTL headphone the HD800S. This was a massive jump not only in quality but in price and I was quite shocked that I was willing to spend well over $1500 CAD on a pair of headphones. What happened to the days where I was shocked at spending $200 CAD? LOL. The 800S gave me a soundstage and detail level which were just not even comprehensible. All my music sounded so much more interesting, 3d, layered, engaging and nuanced.
After enjoying the HD800S for some time I began to miss the warmth of the HD 650 and moved on to the ZMF Auter and atticus and love these headphones for the added warmth and musicality they bring. Now I have a spectrum of headphones based on my mood and genre from bright and detailed to romantic and dark (800S, Auteur, Atticus).
I progressed in my amp/dac upgrading endeavours as well going to an HDV 820 which was a massive jump up in quality from the Burson. Everything got better, sound stage, holography, detail… it was slap you in your face better versus the already competent burson. But this quickly made me hungry for more and to see how far I could go.
Enter Terminator, HE9 (Chi-fi stack)
After months of research, reading, talking to as many audio experts as I could and auditioning some gear (moon neo 430 HAD)... I settled on the Audio GD HE9 and the Denafrips Terminator. It was an expensive upgrade for me but I hoped to once and for all end the endless cycle of buying gear, enjoying it, reading about the next potential upgrade and buying again.
I eagerly hooked up the stack with some kimber cable hero interconnects and a ifi mercury 3.0 cable from my desktop running flacs on foobar and had a listen directly against my HDV 820 using all my headphones.
I want to be 100% transparent and honest here, my first impressions were negative. The stack just didn’t sound that much better than the HDV 820.I was quite worried as I spent so much money on this stack and wanted 1 more ‘smack in the face’ upgrade like I got from the burson -> hdv 820. After months of listening I realized a few things. At this high level, to really push further I would have to improve my source… files and the audio stream. When I say files I don’t simply mean just higher bitrate flacs or other formats but listening to music that is exceptionally well mastered. You can listen to a 96 khz flac of dave brubeck and it will sound similar to youtube. But with truly well mastered music wow.
So I queue up Chris botti - What I fall in love. This was the first track that convinced me of how great the Terminator - HE9 combination was. Next to the HDV820 the soundstage grew by about 30%. Instruments had an incredible definition and they each had their own space… it was almost as if you were walking through the stage and looking at each performer and respecting the sound from each instrument individually. The HDV820 sounds fantastic don’t get me wrong but the microdetail and ability to peer into the core of the music is simply mystifying with the Denafrips termintor -> HE9 stack. I could really appreciate the reverberation of the music off the walls of the space in which it was played. I added an ifi ipurifier 2.0 to the chain and the this usb device seemed to enhance performance even further with respect to separation and clarity, moreso than when applied to the HDV. Finally I was getting what I paid for! Overall I would say it was a clear 20-25% gain in sound quality. Going back to HDV 820 I was absolutely missing some magic to the sound… that last bit of refinement and detail which once you get used to it… its hard to live without.
I then asked how much of this improvement came from the dac vs the amp. I connected the terminator to my HDV 820 and used it as the dac. I noticed the soundstage was slightly larger but what stood out most when A-Bing between the internal and external dac was the amazing definition and microdetail of the terminator. It was undeniable… it had me constantly trying to turn up the amp when using the built in dac to try and fully appreciate it… the maracas, brushes on the drums.. cymbal splashes. Detail retrieval and imaging was clearly superior on the Terminator.. unmistakably so. However… this combination was absolutely not as good as the Terminator HE9 stack. Going back to the chi-fi stack the sound stage opens up tremendously and I can appreciate the details even better. To me the gain in SQ is perhaps an equal contribution of the two asian artisans. The gains are also larger on the ZMF headphones which makes sense as the HDV is tuned and optimized for the HD800S which gives it an amazing synergy.. but what one still bested by the Terminator and HE9.
Sampling much of my music the gain in quality from the stack to the HDV 820 largely depends on the mastering quality of the original music and the type of music. Music that is more synthy and washed out sounding… differences are harder to appreciate. Older music in general again the difference is minor. But well mastered vocals, instruments and complex electronically support music like anything from Davol brilliantly highlights the chifi stacks superiority.
In all this though I am left with the feeling there is still something to discover. As previously mentioned… optimizing my upstream components I feel may yield the true power of the Terminator especially. My next step now is to try a TOTL network streamer to see if the complete isolation from my desktop and getting away from usb all together may complete a potentially gargantuan jump in sound quality from my now defeated but still excellent HDV 820.
Thank you to Alvin and Kingwa for their excellent support during the purchase process and ongoing support… especially Alvin who is extremely responsive! I will report further if anything meaningful happens to my chain or if there are any new discoveries.
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jmpsmash
100+ Head-Fier
I'd like to add a couple more data points from my personal experience. I have both the Terminator and the Ares, but I don't have other highend DACs for comparison, the only other DAC I have is the Hugo 2.
Some of what has been said of the Terminator is true. It is a more of a forward DAC. Mainly I think due to the Terminator has a slight lean on the V shape. Not overly so, but enough that it will not be associated with midrange warmth. So if anyone need some warmth to it, might need something to add that down the line. The is enough air and smoothness to the high, yet not piercingly so like some system. The bass is fast, crisp and well defined. Whenever anything hits it is hit with quick impact.
The Terminator is very very detailed. You know with most DACs when there is a voice in front, just someone just talking, most of the time it is quite obvious it is not real. The Terminator has enough details and texturially (texture... rially.. is that a word?) correct that all the little hiss from the voice shows up.
Imaging wise, instruments are thin and focused. Soundstage is wide and deep into the wall. Instrument separation is also very well defined, esp in a loud piece of symphonic music.
The result is that the Terminator produce such a level of realism, it is very addictive listening to it.
As for whether it is analog... I don't know. I don't have a good enough analog source to compare. I do hear that from my modest LP setup, analog does excel very well with texture and imaging.
I mainly listen to it with NOS mode. Some ppl like the OS mode. I think the OS mode smooths out the top end a bit too much, and less detailed and focused. It might be a bit less fatiguing in the long run.
Now, the Ares. The Ares shares the same overall sound character as its older sibling. But like the underaccomplished child of the family, sounds like the older brother but not as refined.
The Ares shares the same wide and deep soundstage as the Terminator, it also shares the slight V shaped tonal balance. Bass is fast, crisp and well defined.
However, the Ares isn't as detailed as the Terminator. There is obvious less texture. The upper end is not as extended. Focusing is also a bit more sloppy so instruments are more rounded. It is as if a lens is ever so slightly out of focus. So the color and everything kinda shows, but not forming as sharp of an image.
As a result, the realism isn't as apparent anymore.
Now, the Ares is like 1/5 the cost of the Terminator. I'd say it gets around 70-75% of the performance. Is it good value? probably, but ultimately, if one is looking for absolute performance, the Terminator is it.
Oh, and the Hugo2. The Hugo2 is like a child from another family. It doesn't share the same signature as the Denafrips family. And one would not mistaken the 2 families.
It is quite detailed, and slightly more warmth / less V. Imagining is not quite as sharp. It doesn't have the amount of air and high frequency extension as the Terminator. The bass is a bit more sloppy.
The Hugo2 is a very competent DAC. I think it is more than the Ares but not close to the Terminator. The Hugo2 beat the Ares on clarity and texture, but loses out on sound stage and bass definition. The Terminator beats it on everything to be honest.
Overall, I think the Ares is nothing too spectacular. It is a decent DAC and at the current price / used price, is not a bad deal. I am sure there are better DACs at the same price point but I have also heard way worse DACs at much higher prices. However, the Terminator is something special. The realism just pops out once plugged in. As I said, I don't have any nor have I listened to any other super high end DACs to compare with, maybe that's just normal and I am overreacting!
Last disclaimer. Both the Terminator and Ares were purchased used and as a result, well burned in. I also put in maybe 100-200 hours producing music (I am trying to burn in another toy that I got). I also leave them plugged in and on around the clock. The Hugo2 is powered using the stock power supply. I once in a while unplugged and power it with battery but have not noticed any difference.
Some of what has been said of the Terminator is true. It is a more of a forward DAC. Mainly I think due to the Terminator has a slight lean on the V shape. Not overly so, but enough that it will not be associated with midrange warmth. So if anyone need some warmth to it, might need something to add that down the line. The is enough air and smoothness to the high, yet not piercingly so like some system. The bass is fast, crisp and well defined. Whenever anything hits it is hit with quick impact.
The Terminator is very very detailed. You know with most DACs when there is a voice in front, just someone just talking, most of the time it is quite obvious it is not real. The Terminator has enough details and texturially (texture... rially.. is that a word?) correct that all the little hiss from the voice shows up.
Imaging wise, instruments are thin and focused. Soundstage is wide and deep into the wall. Instrument separation is also very well defined, esp in a loud piece of symphonic music.
The result is that the Terminator produce such a level of realism, it is very addictive listening to it.
As for whether it is analog... I don't know. I don't have a good enough analog source to compare. I do hear that from my modest LP setup, analog does excel very well with texture and imaging.
I mainly listen to it with NOS mode. Some ppl like the OS mode. I think the OS mode smooths out the top end a bit too much, and less detailed and focused. It might be a bit less fatiguing in the long run.
Now, the Ares. The Ares shares the same overall sound character as its older sibling. But like the underaccomplished child of the family, sounds like the older brother but not as refined.
The Ares shares the same wide and deep soundstage as the Terminator, it also shares the slight V shaped tonal balance. Bass is fast, crisp and well defined.
However, the Ares isn't as detailed as the Terminator. There is obvious less texture. The upper end is not as extended. Focusing is also a bit more sloppy so instruments are more rounded. It is as if a lens is ever so slightly out of focus. So the color and everything kinda shows, but not forming as sharp of an image.
As a result, the realism isn't as apparent anymore.
Now, the Ares is like 1/5 the cost of the Terminator. I'd say it gets around 70-75% of the performance. Is it good value? probably, but ultimately, if one is looking for absolute performance, the Terminator is it.
Oh, and the Hugo2. The Hugo2 is like a child from another family. It doesn't share the same signature as the Denafrips family. And one would not mistaken the 2 families.
It is quite detailed, and slightly more warmth / less V. Imagining is not quite as sharp. It doesn't have the amount of air and high frequency extension as the Terminator. The bass is a bit more sloppy.
The Hugo2 is a very competent DAC. I think it is more than the Ares but not close to the Terminator. The Hugo2 beat the Ares on clarity and texture, but loses out on sound stage and bass definition. The Terminator beats it on everything to be honest.
Overall, I think the Ares is nothing too spectacular. It is a decent DAC and at the current price / used price, is not a bad deal. I am sure there are better DACs at the same price point but I have also heard way worse DACs at much higher prices. However, the Terminator is something special. The realism just pops out once plugged in. As I said, I don't have any nor have I listened to any other super high end DACs to compare with, maybe that's just normal and I am overreacting!
Last disclaimer. Both the Terminator and Ares were purchased used and as a result, well burned in. I also put in maybe 100-200 hours producing music (I am trying to burn in another toy that I got). I also leave them plugged in and on around the clock. The Hugo2 is powered using the stock power supply. I once in a while unplugged and power it with battery but have not noticed any difference.
smodtactical
Headphoneus Supremus
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Curious about everyones experience with upstream/front end with terminator. Su1, sotm tx usb ultra, sms 200 ultra network players etc? What gave you guys a nice boost in SQ with terminator over simply a pc connected via usb?
Right now I have an ipurifier 2 but I think I can squeeze out more.
Right now I have an ipurifier 2 but I think I can squeeze out more.
johnzz4
500+ Head-Fier
I can strongly recommend Auralic streamers. I had the Aries Femto which performed well. So well in fact that I took a leap and got the Aries G2 which is a solid refinement all around. The new G1 may be a better value since reports are that it is also an improvement over the Aries Femto. The SU1 was good as well, but I prefer to avoid USB in the chain altogether. I’ve tried all of the USB gadgets with limited success.
smodtactical
Headphoneus Supremus
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Thanks man. Did you try tx-usb ultra with sps 500 ?
jmpsmash
100+ Head-Fier
What do you use to connect between the Aries and terminator? Coax or USB?
+1 to Aries. I have not tried SOtM but I switched from ultraRendu w/ no regrets. I use it w/ Sbooster LPS as a Roon endpoint into DAVE. AES output shines the most from my experience.
Any of these streamers are a huge boost vs PC/laptop outputs. I was not a believer until I tried it.
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rafabro
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New Gustard U16 is even better than SU-1. Is worth to try as difference is more than little.
johnzz4
500+ Head-Fier
I use AES. I also found it very interesting that this connection is very cable sensitive. I didn't expect that.
smodtactical
Headphoneus Supremus
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Any thoughts on tx usb ultra ?
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