"DDD" for modern vinyl pressings?
Jan 7, 2020 at 1:45 PM Post #16 of 65
I am in no mean to take sides as I have all 3 systems, digital, reel 2 reel, and vinyl. Each of them have their own goods and bad. Of course going foot deep toward any of them would cost a fortune. I would choose Digital for the Conveniences of it. Digital still needs time to improve
 
Jan 7, 2020 at 2:00 PM Post #17 of 65
What needs to improve with digital? The sound quality is transparent, even with lossy files. It's super convenient. You don't always have to plug in, and the files are relatively small. I have records, reel to reel, cassette, even 8 track. CDs and my iPhone are what I've always dreamed of since I was a kid. Digital audio has freed me up to focus more on music and not have to worry about noise and distortion.
 
Jan 7, 2020 at 3:36 PM Post #18 of 65
I listen to both LPs and CDs, with headphones. I was very excited to acquire recently an LP of one of my favorite tenors singing Schumann lieder, just voice and piano, issued only in Japan and never reissued on CD. The used pressing is immaculate, no scuffs, probably played only once or twice before, if at all. But because EMI decided to squeeze all of "Dichterliebe," which runs around 30 minutes, onto one side, the volume level on that side is very low. So, to hear the music, you have to turn the volume up, which, of course, amplifies the surface noise. Very unpleasant to listen to. The other side, which has roughly 25 minutes of music, sounds better. But both sides could have been issued on one CD with none of these level or surface noise issues. P.S. Don't know how people can spend $30+ on a new vinyl reissue of an all-digital recording. Not only are you basically paying for coloration, the manufacturing quality is often poor -- warping, surface noise, and blurry cover art.
 
Jan 7, 2020 at 6:25 PM Post #19 of 65
I am in no mean to take sides as I have all 3 systems, digital, reel 2 reel, and vinyl. Each of them have their own goods and bad. Of course going foot deep toward any of them would cost a fortune. I would choose Digital for the Conveniences of it. Digital still needs time to improve

Have you ever heard digital mastered well? There is a reason why listeners of the most demanding genre (ie classical music) have embraced digital since the 1980s. Hardly any would go back to reel to reel or vinyl being both inconvenient and lower fidelity.
 
Jan 9, 2020 at 12:26 AM Post #20 of 65
When it comes to Vinyl, then the vinyl itself is Analog. However, the Digital being converted into the Analog to press onto the vinyl itself is the problem. AAA is the beat there is as no algorithms took place onto the music itself.
Analog: "relating to or using signals or information represented by a continuously variable physical quantity such as spatial position...."

That means, it's not a replica of the original, it's a representation. It includes added information that was never in the original. These additions are the analog path's flaws, it's failure to accurately reproduce the original. The flaws are not small at all, all easily measured and heard.

By contrast, quantization produces a series of instantaneous accurate samples that can be used to precisely reconstruct the original, with accuracy limited only by the Nyquist frequency and to lesser extent, the number of bits used. PCM produces a replica of the original signal, with minimal flaws that are orders of magnitude below the level of errors in any analog recording system. Digital converted to analog is not a problem at all when cutting the master lacquer, any more than an analog recording is. The modulated groove has many, many physical limitations that must be considered, and the mastering process is strongly dictated by those limitations, regardless if the original master is analog or digital. The resulting lacquer master and playback system introduces further limitations and additional error signals.
Some people argue that the techniques to print the vinyls are considered algorithms, which is true. However the algorithms to interpret 0-1 binary Codes into an analog waves are different than the algorithms used as a printing techniques. The level of influences are also different.
The processes involved in cutting a master lacquer are not really fixed algorithms, they are highly variable based on subjective judgement and desired result, limited by the constraints of the medium. Those subjective judgements, processes, and media limitations are quite significant, with the subjective decisions being the single biggest influence on the result.

The process used to convert a data stream into an analog signal are a fixed algorithm, they are not variable at all, and there's no subjective judgement possible. Therefore, the impact of the D/A algorithm is zero by definition. But then, you take that analog signal and cut a lacquer using the identical processes used when cutting from an analog master, same subjective judgements, same media limitations.

The question of which is better can only be answered subjectively, unless the ultimate goal is perfect replication of the original signal. If that is the goal, digital systems are the only choice as released recordings are exact replicas of the master. This is never true in the analog world regardless of the media as all analog recording and reproduction systems and signal chains successively degrade the original signal with every step of the total signal chain.

If the ultimate goal does not include perfect replication of the original, and there is a preference for some aspect of an analog method, then the user will gravitate to that choice. The choice cannot be called "right" or "wrong" unless the goal is fully understood. Audio bliss can be achieved in any number of ways, with many different types of media. There exists in this world a group with strong preferences for the 8-track tape cartridge, probably one of the most technically flawed media types of the last half of the 20th century.
Regardless of how those side of debates are. It is as simple as this, the less processing = the better.
Less processing = the better = digital. You must understand that every step of the analog chain changes (processes) the original, desired or not. Such is not true in the digital domain.
Yes, analog has many flaws including distortions and noises. But this is the best statement I have seen “The real World is Analog!”
Analog is exactly what comes pouring out of every single digital playback system. That particular signal replicates, exactly (if desired), the original analog input signal. If you don't like the original, then it is perfectly valid to distort it in any way you like until it's to your liking. You can think of the analog/vinyl system as a big filter that's modifying the original signal in a way that some like. When combined with the visual and tactile experience (non of which exists with a digital system) the composite experience can be quite compelling. But so can listening to a replica of the original heard during final mix...literally, a clone of the master.
 
Jan 9, 2020 at 2:10 AM Post #21 of 65
To me analog is continuous, electro magnetic field is analog, the coil that is moving within this field to generate continuous signal is analog. Even analog itself has a timing system such as Tape or vinyl. they are either RPM or IPS

digital is a process of different DSP and algorithms taking from binary bit of 0 and 1. That isn’t analog, that is Morse Code, and with a messed up timing, this info is meaningless, these timing have to be so precise as much as femto seconds. In electrical presentation, the 0 and 1 is presented in a form of gated N or P and that isn’t analog. Even every resistors precision’s and the rounded up number to correct errors from these info isn’t analog.

so again, magnetic field and something bathed within it is analog, even if errors happened, it is still analog as it happened continuously. Errors within analog systems consisting physical errors and mechanicals errors. The errors that happening in digital is digital errors, electrical signals pulsation errors, and mechanical errors.

Microphones is the purest example of analog, a magnetic field that mimics the analog movement to generate a continuous signals. How else do you record anything ? Keeping this signals and replicating it = the best representation of the original. Yes noises maybe added, but the world is analog, and there is noises everywhere even in vacuum spaces
 
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Jan 9, 2020 at 2:46 AM Post #22 of 65
You might want to do a little research and find out how the technology behind home audio works. You appear to have preconceived notions that aren't correct. A little bit of googling can fix that. If you'd like some links, feel free to ask. Folks here would be happy to help you get the straight dope rather than made up stuff.
 
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Jan 9, 2020 at 2:50 AM Post #23 of 65
You might want to do a little research and find out how the technology behind home audio works.
Believe me I do, reading those books itself, and also listening just for my own experiences. I have all 3 systems, and I also play around a lot down to a transistors.

Like I said, each one has it pros and cons. My stands here is that The world is Analog, and the microphone is analog, Binary coding is purely algorithms from ADC to DAC

Nothing is original anymore at the moment human is trying to record something in order to reproduce it
 
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Jan 9, 2020 at 3:15 AM Post #24 of 65
Start by doing some research on Nyquist. I think you know more about analogue than you do about digital.
 
Jan 9, 2020 at 4:14 AM Post #25 of 65
Start by doing some research on Nyquist. I think you know more about analogue than you do about digital.
Yes I know about and still studying digital and it processing, algorithms etc....but allow me to not open a can of worms on how it Effect sounds. You can find Jussi LashKo quote, the creator of HQplayer, and also Sabre engineers, AKM engineers about how digital filters alternate the sound performances

I don’t make up stuff, FYI
 
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Jan 9, 2020 at 5:28 AM Post #26 of 65
Start by doing some research on Nyquist. I think you know more about analogue than you do about digital.

Does he? surely he would realise that analog playback has far more timing errors (audible levels of wow and flutter for example) than digital (jitter which is way below human audibility). Does he provide any evidence to support his misconceptions, such as objective measurements?

He has been given some good information regarding his questions but does not want to know, noticed he hasn't responded specifically or sought elaboration on the facts provided by others, including a fairly detailed reply from Pinnahertz which is all factual audio science information? It is just thread crapping IMO.

Honestly, it is a bit like trying to educate a creationist on evolution theory. It is not a matter of being smart or not, they just don't want to know or have their beliefs challenged by science or objective evidence.
 
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Jan 9, 2020 at 5:29 AM Post #27 of 65
Yes I know about and still studying digital and it processing, algorithms etc....but allow me to not open a can of worms on how it Effect sounds. You can find Jussi LashKo quote, the creator of HQplayer, and also Sabre engineers, AKM engineers about how digital filters alternate the sound performances

I don’t make up stuff, FYI

I'm sure you really believe you're are not making this stuff up - there ie a d word for it.
 
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Jan 9, 2020 at 8:53 AM Post #28 of 65
To me analog is continuous, electro magnetic field is analog, the coil that is moving within this field to generate continuous signal is analog. Even analog itself has a timing system such as Tape or vinyl. they are either RPM or IPS
If you're going to talk about timing in an analog recording system, then you absolutely cannot ignore the variances. Variances in speed caused by the mechanical nature of those systems introduce timing errors, which translate to frequency modulation of the signal. Long period errors are termed Wow, short period errors are termed Flutter. Depending on the medium, there can be further timing distortions. Tape systems include a property called "scrape flutter", which are extremely short period longitudinal oscillations caused by lengths of unsupported tape passing over stationary components, literally vibrating like a violin bow. These oscillations are the analog version of "jitter", only much worse than any digital jitter, and clearly audible as modulated noise around tones. Vinyl systems often suffer from variances in record flatness, and even small ones introduce a sub-sonic bias component. When left unaddressed and passed to speakers, the speaker cone moves along with the subsonic signal, which in turn produces a Doppler pitch-shift in mid-band signals, again, clearly audible. Those are just a few examples. Analog is actually pretty terrible when it comes to time-base errors.
digital is a process of different DSP and algorithms taking from binary bit of 0 and 1. That isn’t analog, that is Morse Code, and with a messed up timing, this info is meaningless, these timing have to be so precise as much as femto seconds.
Your concept is quite wrong, that's not at all how a PCM system works. For starters, there is no DSP involved. The timing isn't at all "messed up", it's many more times the accuracy of any analog system. Precision to femtoseconds is not required in audio, but nanosecond precision is already achieved every day, again, far beyond the ability of any analog system.
In electrical presentation, the 0 and 1 is presented in a form of gated N or P and that isn’t analog. Even every resistors precision’s and the rounded up number to correct errors from these info isn’t analog.
You are correct that 0 and 1 are not analog, but that's the whole point. Those bits are used to quantize accurate sample points that are used to exactly reconstruct the signal. Once saved, that sequence can be used to reconstruct the input signal perfectly at any time, even if copied. Analog systems to not have the accuracy to do that, every recording has errors caused both in the recording and reproduction process. Every copy is worse.
so again, magnetic field and something bathed within it is analog, even if errors happened, it is still analog as it happened continuously. Errors within analog systems consisting physical errors and mechanicals errors. The errors that happening in digital is digital errors, electrical signals pulsation errors, and mechanical errors.
Agreed on your statements above re: analog, but digital errors only define its noise floor, which is between 20 and 40 dB lower than analog tape. There is no such thing as pulsation error, and because digital recording systems involve a reference clock, mechanical errors are already compensated for. Analog errors are cumulative, never compensated for at all.
Microphones is the purest example of analog, a magnetic field that mimics the analog movement to generate a continuous signals. How else do you record anything ? Keeping this signals and replicating it = the best representation of the original. Yes noises maybe added, but the world is analog, and there is noises everywhere even in vacuum spaces
All transducers, microphones, magnetic head/tape, stylus/groove, and speakers/headphones produce very significant errors which are added to the original signal. They convert one form of energy to another imperfectly. The imperfections are baked into the signal passing through them, each device impressing its own, and adding to the mangling of the original. Analog recording/reproducing devices mangle the signal in very unnatural ways, adding forms of distortion not heard in nature. Digital recording replicates the input signal without adding any significant errors, and what minuscule errors may be there are below the level of error elsewhere in the audio chain. The analog signal presented to the input is replicated, errors and all.

It's not an easy test for most people to do, but possible. Take your favorite analog recording and using digital equipment of reasonable quality, record that signal. Then play the original and the recording back in sync and compare on whatever sound system you like. To do this without bias, the comparison should be double-blind, and that's where this becomes difficult, but even single-blind comparisons will reveal that the nature of a digital system is to add or subtract nothing from the original. Honest-hearted, truth-seeking individuals will recognize that the digital copy is indistinguishable from the original. Those with strong expectation bias will not.
 
Jan 9, 2020 at 9:00 AM Post #29 of 65
Yes I know about and still studying digital and it processing, algorithms etc....but allow me to not open a can of worms on how it Effect sounds. You can find Jussi LashKo quote, the creator of HQplayer, and also Sabre engineers, AKM engineers about how digital filters alternate the sound performances

I don’t make up stuff, FYI
Careful of who you accept as an authority. IF they have a product to sell, they have biased their information. Lets also be realistic here, no system is absolutely perfect, but how accurate it is relative to competing systems is pretty important to understand. You can find distortions in every technology in the audio chain if you look really hard, but for the job it's doing, which method produces the best result? And "best" is subjective, influenced by expectation. So if what you're really trying to say here is "I like analog better", that's perfectly fine, and nobody can really challenge your preference. If you say "analog is more accurate", we can shoot all sorts of holes in that. They are different statements, one is valid, one is not valid and not provable.

I would suggest this video.
 
Jan 9, 2020 at 9:09 AM Post #30 of 65
Does he? surely he would realise that analog playback has far more timing errors (audible levels of wow and flutter for example) than digital (jitter which is way below human audibility). Does he provide any evidence to support his misconceptions, such as objective measurements?
In some circles, the only accepted measurement is biased listening. It's really hard to argue for evidence in that setting.
He has been given some good information regarding his questions but does not want to know, noticed he hasn't responded specifically or sought elaboration on the facts provided by others, including a fairly detailed reply from Pinnahertz which is all factual audio science information? It is just thread crapping IMO.
These threads are strongly challenged. I sincerely hope the information, posted publicly, is of value to more than just one person in the thread.
Honestly, it is a bit like trying to educate a creationist on evolution theory. It is not a matter of being smart or not, they just don't want to know or have their beliefs challenged by science or objective evidence.
A thorny debate for sure, but I don't think exactly comparable.
 

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