Days of ear pain - audiophile journey already over? Help?!!

[Longfellow78]

Hi,
I have a weird problem and I don't know what to do or if there is a precedent here.
After I had children I noticed that I was very sound sensitive when they screamed at a high pitch. Causing my ears to suffer pain for several hours - I assumed this was nothing.
I bought a pair of SHP9500 and a Fiio K5 - never had any pain or ear issues. Upgraded to a DO400.
Also no problems with IEMs or earbuds (Nothing ears, Salnotes Zero, Hexa).
Then bought some Fostex T50RPs and at the same time bought some T60rp Argons. I noticed immediate and long lasting ear pain after listening for 24-48 hours, even at moderate volumes.
I made myself a DIY headphone frequency rig, and lo and behold, saw both Fostex has a MASSIVE frequency spike at 3.5khz, which the 9500 didn't have. This is also the frequency at which is at the top of a child's scream(!). I also tried EQ-ing this region to the max for a short period to test and it made the pain worse - maybe that was a placebo though.
The two Fostex are both pretty closed backs, and the SHP9500 is very open - I wondered if it was some kind of extra pressure from the closed backs, so I thought maybe this, but with my graphs, I was certain I had found the problem - I was "treble sensitive" in this range, I decided to try something which was even lower in this range.
I am a tinkerer, with not much money, so I made myself a Borealis clone, which my rig measures almost identically to the real thing surprisingly. Good news being it's much lower in the 3.5k region.
And...... the same ear pain after listening. Devastated I'm like What.
The only commonality I can think of now is that the Fostex and Borealis clone all have much more bass than the shp9500. I wondered if I am "bass sensitive".
Chatgpt claims there is such a thing but I've never heard it mentioned. Someone said "hyperacuisis" but this is sensitivity to certain frequencies at normal volume, and we encounter a full range of sounds all the time and I never had this except with kid screaming (which also isn't bass) and it doesn't happen on my earbuds or SHP9500. Am I treble AND bass sensitive?
What the hell. I was planning on this being a major hobby and now I'm in very sad and confused. I wonder if maybe I will have to try and fall back on the 6X0 series (I had an HD580 when I was 18 which I stupidly sold, and never had this problem, but it was 25 years ago) - as a better version with a similar sound signature to the 9500. Maybe 650 as I like EDM. Although I am also very sensitive to high clamp pressure - not pain, just I can't stand the discomfort of high clamp, hence why I got 9500 in the first place.
I have adjusted my fostex and borealis clone to have minimal clamp pressure so it's not that.
Any advice or suggstions gratefully received.
Thanks.

 

[gregorio]

I strongly recommend you see your doctor and/or an audiologist! Pain in the ears is typically indicative of damage being caused. So if you are doing something which causes pain in your ears, immediately stop doing it, at least until you’ve consulted with an audiologist.

What you describe certainly sounds like Hyperacusis/Noxacusis but do NOT take my word for it, or indeed anyone’s word for anything on this subject from the internet, with the exception of seeking expert advice from a doctor or audiologist!

G

 

[castleofargh]

First, the common sense answer: Stop whatever it is that causes you pain and don't do it again! Also, go see a professional.

Now, the noob with an opinion answer:
I cannot stand most Fostex. I don't like elevated amplitude in the treble in general. The 3 to 4kHz area is certainly a crucial zone, and it's often what makes or breaks a tuning for me, so it might be a good idea to adjust it, not so it's flat on a graph, but so it sounds like you feel is flat.
As far as loudness is concerned, the odds are that we would adjust for that area (say 2 to 4kHz where we have the most sensitivity) when adjusting the volume knob, instead of letting it be obviously too loud. IMO it's maybe 6kHz and above where we are less and less sensitive that can be a problem. More energy might not feel like much, while potentially damaging to hair cells.

I have experienced something similar to what you describe(I think) with a handful of IEMs and headphones. I enjoyed them, but after a while I felt pain. To make sure it wasn't physical pressure causing the pain, as it can be hard to locate the place of pain sometime, I waited some days to feel fine again and then put them on for hours without playing anything. Just to have them on. Sometimes it was a comfort thing, and sometimes not, so more likely a frequency response issue.
I have to say, it was purely curiosity making me try that, as in either scenarios my stand has always been to get rid of the offender. It's never worth it to suffer and take chances with our ears.

 

[Longfellow78]

I strongly recommend you see your doctor and/or an audiologist! Pain in the ears is typically indicative of damage being caused. So if you are doing something which causes pain in your ears, immediately stop doing it, at least until you’ve consulted with an audiologist.

What you describe certainly sounds like Hyperacusis/Noxacusis but do NOT take my word for it, or indeed anyone’s word for anything on this subject from the internet, with the exception of seeking expert advice from a doctor or audiologist!

G

Thanks for the reply. I will speak to someone today.

 

[Longfellow78]

First, the common sense answer: Stop whatever it is that causes you pain and don't do it again! Also, go see a professional.

Now, the noob with an opinion answer:
I cannot stand most Fostex. I don't like elevated amplitude in the treble in general. The 3 to 4kHz area is certainly a crucial zone, and it's often what makes or breaks a tuning for me, so it might be a good idea to adjust it, not so it's flat on a graph, but so it sounds like you feel is flat.
As far as loudness is concerned, the odds are that we would adjust for that area (say 2 to 4kHz where we have the most sensitivity) when adjusting the volume knob, instead of letting it be obviously too loud. IMO it's maybe 6kHz and above where we are less and less sensitive that can be a problem. More energy might not feel like much, while potentially damaging to hair cells.

I have experienced something similar to what you describe(I think) with a handful of IEMs and headphones. I enjoyed them, but after a while I felt pain. To make sure it wasn't physical pressure causing the pain, as it can be hard to locate the place of pain sometime, I waited some days to feel fine again and then put them on for hours without playing anything. Just to have them on. Sometimes it was a comfort thing, and sometimes not, so more likely a frequency response issue.
I have to say, it was purely curiosity making me try that, as in either scenarios my stand has always been to get rid of the offender. It's never worth it to suffer and take chances with our ears.

Thanks for the reply. I hear what you're saying (lol), but the actual problem of "what I'm doing" is just listening to music at a moderate volume. I retested my headphones on my rig this morning and saw that actually, contrary to what I said before, the 3000 to 3800 range is actually elavated on my Borealis clones, nothing like the fostex, but still above my "safe" 9500. So I can EQ it down. You're right, I think Fostex are a major problem in this area. All my research suggested 3-4k was the most likely culprit. I might buy an HD650. The 650 is even lower in that region than the 9500, so if those don't work I know the problem is something else - I don't want to give up on my DIY headphone projects so considering also a Minidps ears to really see what's going on, but then my DIY projects and different headphones are ending up costing a ton of money when I could have bought an audeze, e.g. LCD-X which is hyper low in that frequency range. Hmm. Anyway, thanks for input.

 

[dunring]

If you do searches for frequency response charts, it's easy to narrow it down. Compare the pair that's ok for you, with the others to see where they're peaking to see the differences.
There's an airport site for flatting the profiles of any headphones. APO equalizer and the Peace front end will let you load the profiles and with flattened tuning it'll give a safe starting point without spending money on all your stuff.

 

[2leftears]

Head-Fi is not the forum to be seeking advice on this; go see the doctor/audiologist as already suggested.

This may or may not be causing permanent damage and without a proper diagnosis you can't be certain. Trying to avoid the problem through equalisation may relieve the symptom(s) but it won't get rid of the underlying problem. This could be noxacusis but you really need to get a medical professional to have a look at this.

 

[castleofargh]

Thanks for the reply. I hear what you're saying (lol), but the actual problem of "what I'm doing" is just listening to music at a moderate volume. I retested my headphones on my rig this morning and saw that actually, contrary to what I said before, the 3000 to 3800 range is actually elavated on my Borealis clones, nothing like the fostex, but still above my "safe" 9500. So I can EQ it down. You're right, I think Fostex are a major problem in this area. All my research suggested 3-4k was the most likely culprit. I might buy an HD650. The 650 is even lower in that region than the 9500, so if those don't work I know the problem is something else - I don't want to give up on my DIY headphone projects so considering also a Minidps ears to really see what's going on, but then my DIY projects and different headphones are ending up costing a ton of money when I could have bought an audeze, e.g. LCD-X which is hyper low in that frequency range. Hmm. Anyway, thanks for input.

The E.A.R.S isn't great. I got one when it came out, hopefully they improved some things since, but mine has a much too short "ear canal", some foam stuff poorly placed around a capsule to almost seal something, and a compensation curve that does what it can under the circumstances(different acoustic spaces will have different resonances and one generic EQ is not a solution).
It's great that it exists because some curious people need a ready-made cheap solution(no matter how far it is from a proper expensive rig) if only as a chance to get into the process of testing stuff and answering questions.
But IMO, as you're into DIY, I would suggest you make your own box with stuff inside and outside. The odds are that for the same price you'll put more care into it than the minidsp guys did.
Just a very personal opinion.

 

[Ghoostknight]

did you actually try with a online tone generator out what frequencys you might be more sensitive to? (with low-ish volume, so you dont have to look for "earpain")

imo what i can describe as "earpain" were elevated frequencys above 10-15khz in the past, my last dac switch made a noticeable difference on this but usually with all ESS dacs i had to turn high frequencys via a housecurve to -6db or so at 20khz to really enjoy listening

roommodes(with speakers),
generally speaking frequency response with headphones,
distortion of any kind
hell, i even noticed it with different kind of XLR cables, mainly because high frequencys got influenced imo

all of which can be described as "earpain" with the right volume, roommodes or a very uneven frequency response are a bitch because some point of the frequency band is barely audible while other parts are already "eardamaging" +10-20db

 

[gregorio]

imo what i can describe as "earpain" were elevated frequencys above 10-15khz in the past, my last dac switch made a noticeable difference on this but usually with all ESS dacs i had to turn high frequencys via a housecurve to -6db or so at 20khz to really enjoy listening

Firstly, can you show any reliable evidence that elevated freqs above 10-15kHz cause ear pain, the basic facts of human hearing sensitivity would indicate a range around 2-5kHz would be the most probable region for ear pain? Secondly, can you show us measurements of any DACs at all with elevated freqs above 10kHz - 15kHz, including any ESS DACs?

roommodes(with speakers),
generally speaking frequency response with headphones,
distortion of any kind
hell, i even noticed it with different kind of XLR cables, mainly because high frequencys got influenced imo

all of which can be described as "earpain" with the right volume, roommodes or a very uneven frequency response are a bitch because some point of the frequency band is barely audible while other parts are already "eardamaging" +10-20db

Room modes can affect freqs by 10-20dB, even by as much as 40dB or so on occasion but only freqs up to around 200Hz and sometimes a hundred or so Hertz higher in the case of 2nd harmonics, so nowhere near the “above 10-15kHz” range you are suggesting.

Headphone response can vary quite a bit in the 10kHz range.

Obviously “distortion of any kind” cannot be true, otherwise pretty much all popular music genre recordings ever made would “be described as earpain” and the vast majority of distortion on recordings is below 10kHz.

Your assertion about XLR cables is also nonsense, they do not “influence high freqs”. Again, please provide any objective evidence/measurements of this supposed “high frequency influence” with XLR cables.

G

 

[Longfellow78]

The E.A.R.S isn't great. I got one when it came out, hopefully they improved some things since, but mine has a much too short "ear canal", some foam stuff poorly placed around a capsule to almost seal something, and a compensation curve that does what it can under the circumstances(different acoustic spaces will have different resonances and one generic EQ is not a solution).
It's great that it exists because some curious people need a ready-made cheap solution(no matter how far it is from a proper expensive rig) if only as a chance to get into the process of testing stuff and answering questions.
But IMO, as you're into DIY, I would suggest you make your own box with stuff inside and outside. The odds are that for the same price you'll put more care into it than the minidsp guys did.
Just a very personal opinion.

Hi. I got the EARS. tested for an hour and immediately shipped back. Absolute Garbage. Titanic spike at 4.5 k that ruins the curve and obscures surrounding frequencies. I'm going to make a better home made rig with a calibrated capsule mic, some silicone ears, and going to try (believe it or not) a fake head used to fitting wigs filled with cork. See how it works. My DIY solution was pretty good but the mic was way off.

 

[Longfellow78]

did you actually try with a online tone generator out what frequencys you might be more sensitive to? (with low-ish volume, so you dont have to look for "earpain")

imo what i can describe as "earpain" were elevated frequencys above 10-15khz in the past, my last dac switch made a noticeable difference on this but usually with all ESS dacs i had to turn high frequencys via a housecurve to -6db or so at 20khz to really enjoy listening

roommodes(with speakers),
generally speaking frequency response with headphones,
distortion of any kind
hell, i even noticed it with different kind of XLR cables, mainly because high frequencys got influenced imo

all of which can be described as "earpain" with the right volume, roommodes or a very uneven frequency response are a bitch because some point of the frequency band is barely audible while other parts are already "eardamaging" +10-20db

Interesting. I only really noticed when I switched out my Fiio K5 ESS for a DO400. But I only had the shp9500 with the K5. I was vaugely wondering if it was something to do with the DO400. I did try an online tone generator and tried a boosted 3.5k and my ears were on fire for 2 days after. So I assumed it was that. But I'm all in a muddle and confused now.

 

[Longfellow78]

Firstly, can you show any reliable evidence that elevated freqs above 10-15kHz cause ear pain, the basic facts of human hearing sensitivity would indicate a range around 2-5kHz would be the most probable region for ear pain? Secondly, can you show us measurements of any DACs at all with elevated freqs above 10kHz - 15kHz, including any ESS DACs?

Room modes can affect freqs by 10-20dB, even by as much as 40dB or so on occasion but only freqs up to around 200Hz and sometimes a hundred or so Hertz higher in the case of 2nd harmonics, so nowhere near the “above 10-15kHz” range you are suggesting.

Headphone response can vary quite a bit in the 10kHz range.

Obviously “distortion of any kind” cannot be true, otherwise pretty much all popular music genre recordings ever made would “be described as earpain” and the vast majority of distortion on recordings is below 10kHz.

Your assertion about XLR cables is also nonsense, they do not “influence high freqs”. Again, please provide any objective evidence/measurements of this supposed “high frequency influence” with XLR cables.

G

What I read suggested it was likely to be in 3-5k range and as I said i very first noticed this when my young son screamed in a very high pitch, which is around the low 3k I believe. I'm waiting on parts to build a slightly more solid home measuring rig.

I'm currently road testing some HD650s which are according to the standard curves, lower in this range than even the shp9500. Feeling like my head is being crushed in a vice is somewhat complicating the issue however!

 

[Ghoostknight]

Interesting. I only really noticed when I switched out my Fiio K5 ESS for a DO400. But I only had the shp9500 with the K5. I was vaugely wondering if it was something to do with the DO400. I did try an online tone generator and tried a boosted 3.5k and my ears were on fire for 2 days after. So I assumed it was that. But I'm all in a muddle and confused now.

imo, trust your ears when they tell you something is wrong, of course the problem could lie with your ears itself, but usually only listening to stuff (excluding normal real world sounds) will raise issues like this) IME uneven/unnatural frequency response

with your 3,5k issue, so actually where humans are most sensitive, a house curve still could help, i can only suggest to try it

depending on what EQ you use, this is the parametetric EQ im using:
1,4Khz, 0.4Q, -2dB (you can experiment with this a bit, i would suggest 1,4khz-3khz and -2db to -6db, you can also experiment a bit with the Q factor 0,4Q - 0,7Q.... 0,4Q gives you a smoother transition, which also sounds like this
with earlier ESS dacs i was using mostly around -4-6db, since i switched to the BLA interface i dont need this anymore because high frequencys sound much more cleaner as with ESS dacs

my example will give you probably -1,2-1,5db at 3,5khz

 

[blaked]

I'm currently road testing some HD650s which are according to the standard curves, lower in this range than even the shp9500. Feeling like my head is being crushed in a vice is somewhat complicating the issue however!

If you extend the ear cups from the headband, the metal bit that connects them can be very gently/slightly bent outward to relax that compression. Be careful, of course.