[krismusic]

I hope it's OK to ask here.
I've only ever used Apple sources and would be very interested to try something different.
Tidal is my source of music. DAP's that play Tidal seem to be few and expensive.
Would a DAP/Amp be a sensible way to get away from the Apple sound, or are there other important factors that make DAP's sound different to each other?

 

[watchnerd]

I hope it's OK to ask here.
I've only ever used Apple sources and would be very interested to try something different.
Tidal is my source of music. DAP's that play Tidal seem to be few and expensive.
Would a DAP/Amp be a sensible way to get away from the Apple sound, or are there other important factors that make DAP's sound different to each other?

 
I guess I don't understand the problem you're trying to solve...
 
When you say "Apple sources", like what?  What do you mean by the "Apple sound"?
 
Because the "sound" of anything is going to be mostly a factor of the headphones, the amp you hook it up to, and whether they're well-matched.

 

[krismusic]

I guess I don't understand the problem you're trying to solve...

When you say "Apple sources", like what?  What do you mean by the "Apple sound"?

Because the "sound" of anything is going to be mostly a factor of the headphones, the amp you hook it up to, and whether they're well-matched.

The sources that I have used are a couple of iPods and iPhones from 4S through to my current 6S.
I just wonder if there is something out there that would give a more engaging sound. Maybe smoother treble and deeper bass.
I realise that the iPhone is very clean and neutral. Maybe another Dap would be less accurate with a coloured sound. That might not be a bad thing.
My earphones are Noble K10's. I have a pair of Sennheiser 600's at home.

 

[watchnerd]

The sources that I have used are a couple of iPods and iPhones from 4S through to my current 6S.
I just wonder if there is something out there that would give a more engaging sound. Maybe smoother treble and deeper bass.
I realise that the iPhone is very clean and neutral. Maybe another Dap would be less accurate with a coloured sound. That might not be a bad thing.
My earphones are Noble K10's. I have a pair of Sennheiser 600's at home.

 
If you want a different sound, get different headphones.  If those headphones need a better amp than what you have, then get an amp.
 
Start with the transducers as they have the most effect.

 

[krismusic]

If you want a different sound, get different headphones.  If those headphones need a better amp than what you have, then get an amp.

Start with the transducers as they have the most effect.

Interesting. I have read often that headphones and source make the most difference.

 

[watchnerd]

Interesting. I have read often that headphones and source make the most difference.

 
I'm not contradicting that, but you have to deconstruct what people mean by "source".
 
Your iPhones are already good enough at the digital side of things. They amps built-in are good within their design specs, but they're not good matches for headphones that need huge amounts of power or have weird impedances.
 
P.S. it's actually the quality of the recording that makes the biggest difference.  **** recording through awesome gear still sounds like ****.

 

[krismusic]

I'm not contradicting that, but you have to deconstruct what people mean by "source".

Your iPhones are already good enough at the digital side of things. They amps built-in are good within their design specs, but they're not good matches for headphones that need huge amounts of power or have weird impedances.

P.S. it's actually the quality of the recording that makes the biggest difference.  **** recording through awesome gear still sounds like ****.

I guess I should just get on with listening to the music!

 

[watchnerd]

I guess I should just get on with listening to the music!

 
If you want to buy a DAP because you think it would be a fun toy, by all means do so.  But it won't change things as much as changing headphones.

 

[krismusic]

If you want to buy a DAP because you think it would be a fun toy, by all means do so.  But it won't change things as much as changing headphones.

It's all about SQ for me. To tell the truth I bought a DAC /Amp second hand for not a lot of money. I'll see how that goes. If I'm not impressed I'll just stick with what I have. It's so easy to get carried away when you hang around HeadFi. Thanks for the reality check!

 

[castleofargh]

as always, there is no convenient universal answer. you take one DAC and replace it by another DAC. you will get as much differences as there are between the 2 DACs, or so told me captain obvious. ^_^
then there may be some slight differences depending on impedances and max voltage output of both DACs, that may or may not justify a change in gain(and most likely a change in noise floor level) for the amp. but will you be in such a situation? if you do, will it be audible? and which will be better? it's a case by case problem.
but I would still look for changes with headphones, then amp depending on the headphone, and really only then, look at the DAC part of my system. the magnitude of potential changes will almost always work in that order. (and maybe a good EQ to go with the headphone? ^_^)

 

[krismusic]

as always, there is no convenient universal answer. you take one DAC and replace it by another DAC. you will get as much differences as there are between the 2 DACs, or so told me captain obvious. ^_^
(and maybe a good EQ to go with the headphone? ^_^)

LOL on your first point.
I do wonder if a good EQ would be a reason to change DAP. A shame there isn't one for Tidal...

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

I've only ever used Apple sources and would be very interested to try something different.

 

Unless you're a tech masochist, I don't see how this works out. I tried Apple and iTunes made me want to tear my hair out, hence when these other players were being developed, the primary requests were 1) no iTunes or iTunes equivalent, 2) drag and drop, 3) SD cards. All over these threads are hordes of Apple users who actually love iTunes, and the very concept of drag and drop along with checking file tags seems to leave them all dumbfounded because hey, if Apple does it this way, it's the only way.

 

Quote:

Tidal is my source of music. DAP's that play Tidal seem to be few and expensive.

 

Because when these were being developed what everybody wanted was basically the circuit of a portable DAC-HPamp with an SD slot and control interface. Also, wireless certifications and all that actually costs money, so you either sell tons of tablets from cheap $50 Androids to $600 iPads, to make your money back. They won't sell as many as either as far as their calculations are concerned, so they either make a cheap one as described, or they add all that and charge more.

 

 

[krismusic]

Regarding Apple, as a tech ignoramus I find iTunes a PITA. Just as I work out how to do what I want they change it and IMO make it less intuitive. I do find that their hardware, once set up, just works.
Since streaming services came of age, I find it incredible that I effectively have the worlds music in my pocket. I am very happy to leave physical media behind. Maybe I am slightly extreme in this regard but I do think DAP manufacturers need to get with the program.

 

[watchnerd]

Regarding Apple, as a tech ignoramus I find iTunes a PITA. Just as I work out how to do what I want they change it and IMO make it less intuitive. I do find that their hardware, once set up, just works.
Since streaming services came of age, I find it incredible that I effectively have the worlds music in my pocket. I am very happy to leave physical media behind. Maybe I am slightly extreme in this regard but I do think DAP manufacturers need to get with the program.

 
But this brings it full circle...if you have the software you want on the iPhone 6S, but want to augment it with a better amp, that's probably a more realistic direction than expecting DAP makers to add streaming when they don't even have full software development platforms.
 
Personally, I think streaming is going to kill DAPs.  They're legacy tech now.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Regarding Apple, as a tech ignoramus I find iTunes a PITA. Just as I work out how to do what I want they change it and IMO make it less intuitive. I do find that their hardware, once set up, just works.

 

If you don't like iTunes you're already halfway to being comfortable with non-mainstream brand players, most of what's left is for you to work out track tags.

 

 

Quote:

Since streaming services came of age, I find it incredible that I effectively have the worlds music in my pocket. I am very happy to leave physical media behind. Maybe I am slightly extreme in this regard but I do think DAP manufacturers need to get with the program.

 

Apart from the streaming certification cost issue I discussed above - part of which is how these devices don't get their own sim card slots so they can access the web on their own - the problem is that streaming services "coming of age" doesn't take related tech and services into account not having "come of age" in many places just yet. Wireless internet access isn't all that good everywhere, and even if you had free public WiFi in many places connections isn't always strong, so there's a problem if you're moving around.

 

In most cases, the best option is to use a smartphone as an access point. Here again there's a problem - so why not just use the smartphone to begin with? Well, OK, then carry both...but then with the smartphone running as a mobile hot spot then you drain its likely pathetic battery life even faster because one support tech, battery technology, hasn't improved well and on top of which manufacturers are competing for thinnest phones (which is negated by how people don't want them scratched and dented so they slap a case on it). But OK, you soldier on, aaaaaaaaand now you also need a powerbank, and you need it with you a lot more than usual because of this. The alternative is to carry a wireless internet+WiFi hot spot device, but then it'd have to be able to get a clear signal in both from inside a bag. Either way you go, the only advantage over someone who straps a player, amp, and its separate multi-9v batt power pack is that you can at least have these devices in separate pockets rather than one huge brick in one section of a bag.

 

Basically, again, the problem is how they perceive their chances at not losing money on it. Most people, even those on Head-Fi, would just hook up a high sensitivity IEM to a decent enough smartphone (or buy a smartphone with a DAC+HPamp circuit more akin to a DAP than a smartphone or tablet with an integrated audio chip), and maybe have a spare battery in another pocket (well, no thanks for the new models, Samsung) or a compact powerbank. And then the smaller market would have to be able to buy enough of the product so they turn a profit, but the investment costs increase once they have to get wireless certifications, more so if it has its own internet access given not all places in the world have decent, free public internet access, as in some places speed isn't the only problem, but moving from one block to another can sever the connection (heck even with 4G this can happen due to weaker signals). You basically end up paying more for a service that should make it great on the go, but not really, and then most people would then just go "can I just have hi-cap local storage with this" or "why not just use a computer since I'm just accessing this from home anyway. or look, the phone that I got technically free just to stick with my carrier for another two years."

 

In other words, streaming services are only as mature as the support infrastructure of internet access in a given area, on top of how many devices people are willing to walk around with, as well as there being a need for better battery tech. I would prefer wireless streaming also, except the reality is that manufacturers can't go far enough on that without there being problems with the business economics due to how many units they can expect to sell and at what price given these limitations to the number of people who can use such a feature.