[MrYman]

A nice way to make sound better is using external amp with DAC (e.g. Sostenuto-1 DAC).
For two reasons, first, external DAC is way better than internal one of portable players and second,
with using optical line-out (e.g .with iRiver 550 CD player) you skip ONE A/D and ONE D/A conversion...

Usual path is: CD player D/A for analog line-out, amp A/D for signal processing, amp D/A for headphone output.
With optical line-out on CD player you just have ONE amp D/A conversion...

Well, I have no experience since I have no amps at home, so, in real life I have no idea how big of a role those
conversions play, anyone wanna share his/her experience?

The puzzling question which comes to my mind is this. Is it better to pay, say, $150 more for an amp with
internal DAC, or is it better to pay $150 more for an amp which is better per se (which doesn't have DAC)?!

In other words, do you gain more (get better sound) by investing in amp with DAC, or buying a better amp?

Real life example (source: iRiver 550, headphones HD 600, music: all kind):
1) Sostenuto-1 for $450 using optical line-in -- which has DAC,
2) Gilmore V2 for $500 using analog line-in -- which does NOT have DAC...

 

[bifcake]

My rule of thumb for the upgrade path is as follows in the order of the greatest impact on down:

1. Speakers/headphones
2. Source
3. Amp
4. Cables

So, given a choice between upgrading a source or upgrading an amp, with all things being equal, go for the source.

 

[MrYman]

I mostly agree with your logic. But I want a portable system, so for that iRiver iMP-550 is best CD-MP3 player currently on the market, and moreover, it is the only one with optical line-out. And even tho I never tested this, I'd put my bet that iRiver 550 and its optical line-out is as good of a source as if I'd buy a standalone CD or DVD player for $1000....

 

[bifcake]

I'm not familiar with the player you're talking about. However, I don't think a legitimate claim can be made that a portable player with a digital line out can rival a $1000 player. There are many variables that are at play and a lot would depend on the DAC that you connect your transport to. Additionally, the DACs ability to handle jitter as well as the transport's data integrity stream are all called into question.

 

[mjg]

the benchmarkdac1 with a portable of any variety should rival the $1000 cd player any day. Ask anyone here that can attest (as well as me).

I do notice a difference when going from a revo to the audiophile 2496. Yet, aside from soundcards, my 80 dollar sony dvd player bests both of those soundcards when used with the glass toslink.

I'm in the middle of comparing all of these right now. The 'best' sound I heard from my system was out of the 'cheapest' source, if you want to to think of it like that... The portable source may be different.

 

[JaZZ]

If your main concern is portability and you have a PCDP with digital out, I think the best you can do is to go for a DAC/amp combo like AOS' Sostenuto or the Benchmark DAC. The better «source» in this case should weigh more than the potentially better amp (which is disputable anyway).

 

[bifcake]

Everything is disputable. If it weren't, we wouldn't be here.

 

[MrYman]

My point is, that amp is more important than source. Any source is "good enough" if it costs at least $100. And if source has a OPTICAL line-out (thus bypassing its internal amp and DAC) then such a source must be as good as a source for $1000 with its ANALOG line-out (or close if using optical line-out)...

In other words, if you get source for $100, then there is HUGE difference in sound quality if you use amp for $50 or amp for $600 on SAME source. If you buy a source for $1000 and use an amp for $100 (both $1100) then this combo will be way worse than source for $100 and amp for $600 (both $700).

To conclude, it means your suggestion to first upgrade source then the amp is wrong. The list should be like this:

1) headphones
2) amp
3) source
4) cables

...moreover, we can have many sources, but usually we have just one (or max two) amps.... in short, I think buying an amp is much more difficult, and much more important than when deciding to buy a source....

 

[lini]

Quote:

Originally posted by MrYman Usual path is: CD player D/A for analog line-out, amp A/D for signal processing, amp D/A for headphone output. With optical line-out on CD player you just have ONE amp D/A conversion...

Uhm, sorry, but that's everything else than the usual path, because the majority of amps doesn't contain any a/d-d/a-conversion nor digital signal processing. So the main purpose of digitally connecting an external dac is providing a way around the mostly crappy pcdp dacs and line-stages.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[bifcake]

By source, I mean the transport AND the DAC. I think you'll hear a more pronounced difference by upgrading your source (either the stand alone CD player or the DAC) than you would by changing the amp.

Garbage in, garbage out. So, if the source is substandard, then other components down the chain will make less of a difference.

 

[mjg]

you know what though, you are throwing around figures which is useless, when the truth is only the individual can quantify what is worth what. This is completly subjective. There are individuals happy with their sony discman and stock earbuds, then those who spend 10 grand on cables alone.


True value comes with what you feel comfortable spending, to get what you want!
That said, don't waste your time considering every detail, and take a chance, perhaps you will be rewarded or penalized, that's the only way to learn. I did it, and now I have what i really want, and i'm taking minimal loss since I can sell all the stuff off anyways.

 

[bifcake]

MJG,

YOu're absolutely right. We spend a lot of time splitting hairs on these forums trying to figure out or squeeze that extra n-th degree of performance. Quality is indeed subjective and as long as you're happy with your set up, that's all that really counts.

 

[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally posted by MrYman I mostly agree with your logic. But I want a portable system, so for that iRiver iMP-550 is best CD-MP3 player currently on the market, and moreover, it is the only one with optical line-out.

Hmmm, I find IRiver products quite fragile and horribly built. This is just me...my brother has owned a few in the past...all seemed like toys to me. I like some metal somewhere for durability. Anyway...the iMP-550 is NOT the only one with optical lin-out. This one does too.

Now which is best? No idea....

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally posted by MrYman My point is, that amp is more important than source. ... In other words, if you get source for $100, then there is HUGE difference in sound quality if you use amp for $50 or amp for $600 on SAME source. If you buy a source for $1000 and use an amp for $100 (both $1100) then this combo will be way worse than source for $100 and amp for $600 (both $700).

Hey, we're not talking about $50 amps (Sostenuto and Benchmark)! I definitely would go that route.

 

[Hajime]

Quote:

Originally posted by MrYman My point is, that amp is more important than source. Any source is "good enough" if it costs at least $100. And if source has a OPTICAL line-out (thus bypassing its internal amp and DAC) then such a source must be as good as a source for $1000 with its ANALOG line-out (or close if using optical line-out)...

I disagree. Optical line outs can be well-built or crappy. Also, you have to consider the transport in this $100 source. Is it as good as the transport in a $1000 one? I doubt it.

Quote:

In other words, if you get source for $100, then there is HUGE difference in sound quality if you use amp for $50 or amp for $600 on SAME source. If you buy a source for $1000 and use an amp for $100 (both $1100) then this combo will be way worse than source for $100 and amp for $600 (both $700).

If your source sounds like pure and utter garbage then you will hear pur garbage. Amplifiers do not "improve" the sound. The point is to get as accurate sound from the source as possible. Or - if you prefer some warmth/distortion - to get good sound from the source then add the distortion to it. Amplifiers do not make the sound better.