DAC difference
Nov 26, 2021 at 4:38 PM Post #406 of 577

PhonoPhi

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The noise floor is the distance from the peak level of the signal to the noise at the quietest level. With 16/44.1 that is a distance of about 90dB. That is a bit into overkill though.

DAC filters wouldn’t have any impact on audible sound if they were properly used. I suppose you could deliberately set them so they degraded the sound, but that isn’t the intent. I don’t see any point to that feature on a consumer playback machine.
Everything you write makes sense, but then again, I am striving for direct applicability.

In the absence of well-defined specs, to which manufacturers will feel to oblige (and they rather do their best to be distinct and special, understandably), I can only see "transparency" useful as a purely hypothetical concept.

If, for instance, I found some USB DAC more vivid (clear, etc) than a simple Apple one - and it is as clear as scotch vs. vodka - how would I find even better one (for me) based on specs?
 
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Nov 26, 2021 at 4:47 PM Post #407 of 577

PhonoPhi

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Sure. At a moderately close listening distance a violin has a dynamic range of about 80dB and a freq response up to a max of around 18kHz. So as bigshot stated, 16/44.1 is more than enough.
...
G
I would not argue about these numbers, my question is more about "the standards" of violin recording, and you, as a former performing musician would be one of the best to answer.
For instance, if we record a violin up close with all the delicate bowing details - attack and release - would it be "transparent" or, OK, acceptable to bigshot, who optimized his listening preferences to the reproduction of far-field large-hall recordings.
Actually, most, if not all, of my sound reproduction quest is centered around being able to reproduce (or at least imitate) violin (and chamber music in general) up close. (I am fortunate to have violin/viola players in a house, so that is my reference sound).
 
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Nov 26, 2021 at 8:05 PM Post #408 of 577

Redcarmoose

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That is a dumb idea. That isn’t the proper place to add coloration. What do you run the line out to? A solid state amp? Or double up with another tube amp? Audiophoolery never ends.

No, I said that some tube amps sound just as good as solid state. You are defending your position so hard you don’t listen to anything anyone else says. If you opened your ears you might learn something. I’d explain my points, but they’ve fallen on deaf ears in the past.
Two posts with directly contrasting opinions?

Back to back, no less?

Utter nonsense!
 
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Nov 26, 2021 at 9:03 PM Post #409 of 577

sander99

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Two posts with directly contrasting opinions?
Not at all. He said tube amps can sound as good as solid state, i.e. audibly transparent. (But why would you want an audibly transparent tube amp if an audibly transparent solid state amp is cheaper and lives longer?) The tube amps that sound different are not audibly transparent, hence objectively worse. Some people may have a subjective preference for this coloration by a tube amp, but it is much more logical to add your desired coloration with DSP, it is more flexible and you can turn it off at times if you do want audibly transparency for a change. The same holds for tubes in a DAC.
 
Nov 26, 2021 at 9:08 PM Post #410 of 577

Redcarmoose

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Not at all. He said tube amps can sound as good as solid state, i.e. audibly transparent. (But why would you want an audibly transparent tube amp if an audibly transparent solid state amp is cheaper and lives longer?) The tube amps that sound different are not audibly transparent, hence objectively worse. Some people may have a subjective preference for this coloration by a tube amp, but it is much more logical to add your desired coloration with DSP, it is more flexible and you can turn it off at times if you do want audibly transparency for a change. The same holds for tubes in a DAC.
I’m perfectly aware of that, you didn’t read all his post.
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 12:02 AM Post #411 of 577

Redcarmoose

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Not at all. He said tube amps can sound as good as solid state, i.e. audibly transparent. (But why would you want an audibly transparent tube amp if an audibly transparent solid state amp is cheaper and lives longer?) The tube amps that sound different are not audibly transparent, hence objectively worse. Some people may have a subjective preference for this coloration by a tube amp, but it is much more logical to add your desired coloration with DSP, it is more flexible and you can turn it off at times if you do want audibly transparency for a change. The same holds for tubes in a DAC.
Because the change of tubes affect the signal in a way that can’t be approached all the way by computers or SS amps. They are not actually objectively worse.....(though at times they test that way) hence still in use the the worlds top studios. If they could replace them with a SS compressor or replace $9 thousand dollar tube microphones with SS they would. All any person using a tube for the line out of a DAC section or a tube compressor, or guitar effects unit is trying to do is find a tone. A tone is just simply a color of response. It can be ever so slight as to only affect a portion of the response. A perfect example is Rega. One of their secrets is to generate a slight reverb in the line out section of their DACs. This is common knowledge among Reda fans. The outcome is Rega ends with a signature sound, much of their DACs and well as the CD players have this style of sound signature!


I have already shown that TUBES are still in use. I simply chose 2 of the worlds top studios and listed their equipment list. They would change out the tube gear for SS gear if it was better or able to be emulated by software, but it can’t. Yes, SS gear is more stable and reliable.

Your post is really the same as mine in that it has nothing really to do with the OPs question.

“Is there a difference in DACs” That’s the simple question and I’m showing there are many many different sounding DACs. That it’s the amplifiers next to the DAC chip for the line out that make them different. But somehow we have members in Sound Science that believe every amplifier in the world sounds exactly the same?

That if there is a slight gross departure from (what ever) flat is that it’s broken. What I’m saying is there are all types of correct responses from an amp in the line level area. This is just part of what makes them different. I’m not even beginning to argue that different DAC brand chips make a difference. Also the methodology in use to get the information to the DAC affects the end sound.

Is it USB to the DAC?
Is it Toslink RCA to the DAC?
Is it Toslink Optical to the DAC?


All that affects the sound. The way the digital signal gets to the DAC affects timing. We have noise and timing issues with USB, which are placated to a point with optical, or bypassing a computer all together and using USB file players before the DAC.

What about op amps? Somehow people believe there is maybe zero difference in the sound of the op amp chips (chip to chip) which process the sound to the line level out?
 
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Nov 27, 2021 at 6:33 AM Post #412 of 577

sander99

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Because the change of tubes affect the signal in a way that can’t be approached all the way by computers or SS amps.
This I don't believe for 1 second.
still in use the the worlds top studios. If they could replace them with a SS compressor or replace $9 thousand dollar tube microphones with SS they would.
As already explained:
-They have those things, no reason to throw them away
-They are used to using them
-Such a list of items looks impressive to the customers

That if there is a slight gross departure from (what ever) flat is that it’s broken.
A system is flat if the gain is not frequency dependent (or only frequency dependent within an inaudible margin). For amps and DACs and ADCs and generally all sorts of electronics that is easy achievable.
(If you don't know this I assume you don't know what audibly transparent means? See the answers after this post: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/megas-thread-of-basic-questions.913627/#post-15142138)
For headphones and iems flat is a very complicated concept, because they skip a part of the hrtf filtering that is different for every individual.
However for other components it is very clear and straight forward. Even for loudspeakers it is relatively clear, there are some complications (dispersion pattern, room interaction, bass hump anticipated by studio engineers) but at least it is not dependent on the individual as with headphones.
For loudspeakers and other transducers it is hard to achieve being flat. For electronics it is very easy.
A perfect example is Rega. One of their secrets is to generate a slight reverb in the line out section of their DACs. This is common knowledge among Reda fans. The outcome is Rega ends with a signature sound, much of their DACs and well as the CD players have this style of sound signature!
A CD player adding reverb! That is just the most stupid thing I ever heard of (unless it is an option that can be turned off and maybe also is adjustable). And a great example of how high end manufacturers deliberately degrade the sound just to sound different. And of course a DSP can do this.
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 6:53 AM Post #413 of 577

Redcarmoose

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A CD player adding reverb! That is just the most stupid thing I ever heard of (unless it is an option that can be turned off and maybe also is adjustable). And a great example of how high end manufacturers deliberately degrade the sound just to sound different. And of course a DSP can do this.
Right, the DAC that they sell as a stand-alone has it too. No big deal, manufacturers slightly change the sound of the DACs to get a wanted sound. The Rega sound. And no.......with Rega it is a permanent style of sound for their DACs, no turning it off.

Sony on the other had has a style of effect that can be turned off.


What does DC Phase Linearizer do? It actually degrades the sound!

All amplifiers like the S-Master design can be highly accurate—in some respects they can even be too accurate. Phase linearity is an issue with analog amplifiers and a contributor to analog sound. When you connect a real-world amplifier to a real-world headphone, the interaction causes significant departure from phase linearity at frequencies below 30 or 50 Hz. Sony studies show a typical deviation from linear phase of about +90 degrees. While not making the bass any louder or softer, this shift does have a subtle effect, creating warmer and more accessible bass.

2F25106B-28F5-420E-9F54-81461990460F.jpeg


The low-frequency phase response of the typical analog amplifier departs from linearity at about 30 to 50 Hz. Because many audiophiles are accustomed to seeing frequency plotted against amplitude decibels, this may look like a bass boost. It is not. It's a change in phase, which is much more subtle. Because this phase shift is common across many brands of amplifiers at many price points, the shift has a broad effect on headphone design. Consciously or not, headphone designers take this phase shift into account when they fine-tune the sound of their products.

This raises an interesting dilemma. Should a new digital amplifier incorporate this phase shift or leave the sound in its original state? After extensive listening tests, Sony decided to give users the choice of applying an equivalent phase shift in the digital domain, using a dedicated Digital Signal Processor. This LSI adjusts low-frequency phase with internal accuracy equal to a 65-bit process. We call this circuit the DC Phase Linearizer, because it "restores" low-frequency phase, emulating the signal that the headphone would get from a top-quality analog amplifier.
 
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Nov 27, 2021 at 7:16 AM Post #414 of 577

Redcarmoose

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@https://www.head-fi.org/members/sander99.483288/

Your quote:

“As already explained:
-They have those things, no reason to throw them away
-They are used to using them
-Such a list of items looks impressive to the customers”


Absolutely not......brand new 2021 studios use extensive racks of brand new tube gear simply because they get a sound/tone out of it that you can’t get with SS, or computers. I’ll post some videos of newly built studios with brand new tube gear for ya, I just need to find the video. Now you can say that they do it to impress customers maybe, but they choose to use it all the time. So who knows, maybe they are trying to degrade there 2 million dollar sound? Lol

Edit:

Here one, there’s hundreds.



There are 2021 multimillion dollar studios that use tubes. I just couldn’t find them and I think I’ve made my point. But search, you see, many studios are like this!
 
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Nov 27, 2021 at 7:51 AM Post #415 of 577

Redcarmoose

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Brand New Recording Studio Tubes:


Skip to 12:22
 
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Nov 27, 2021 at 7:52 AM Post #416 of 577

sander99

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So who knows, maybe they are trying to degrade there 2 million dollar sound? Lol
As @bigshot explained, in the studio they will use it to create an intended effect, and they can use it on specific instruments or voices (and at specific times) without altering the other sounds. If you play it back at home on a flat system then you get all those effects as intended. If you add extra effects yourself it influences the whole mix plus you deviate from the intended sound. Still ok if you like that or if it compensates for shortcomings of your loudspeakers or headphones, but silly to make it a fixed change in a DAC or amp instead of an adjustable setting. In the playback setting at home adding an effect that moves the sound away from what was intended / moves away from audibly transparency then that should be considered degradation, an effect used in the studio is an intended effect so that is not a degradation.

And the studio people maybe they don't want to spend time to find the suitable DSPs and DSP settings that could replace those items.
And yes indeed, if they want to keep the audiophools as customers...
 
Nov 27, 2021 at 8:28 AM Post #417 of 577

Redcarmoose

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As @bigshot explained, in the studio they will use it to create an intended effect, and they can use it on specific instruments or voices (and at specific times) without altering the other sounds. If you play it back at home on a flat system then you get all those effects as intended. If you add extra effects yourself it influences the whole mix plus you deviate from the intended sound. Still ok if you like that or if it compensates for shortcomings of your loudspeakers or headphones, but silly to make it a fixed change in a DAC or amp instead of an adjustable setting. In the playback setting at home adding an effect that moves the sound away from what was intended / moves away from audibly transparency then that should be considered degradation, an effect used in the studio is an intended effect so that is not a degradation.

And the studio people maybe they don't want to spend time to find the suitable DSPs and DSP settings that could replace those items.
And yes indeed, if they want to keep the audiophools as customers...
You obviously didn’t watch the video. Skip to 12:22.

Do you own tube equipment? This is obviously a battle of tube amps vs SS amps. This talk could go on ad infinitum. The question again is “Is there a difference in DACs?”
 
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Nov 27, 2021 at 8:36 AM Post #418 of 577

Redcarmoose

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As @bigshot explained, in the studio they will use it to create an intended effect, and they can use it on specific instruments or voices (and at specific times) without altering the other sounds. If you play it back at home on a flat system then you get all those effects as intended. If you add extra effects yourself it influences the whole mix plus you deviate from the intended sound. Still ok if you like that or if it compensates for shortcomings of your loudspeakers or headphones, but silly to make it a fixed change in a DAC or amp instead of an adjustable setting. In the playback setting at home adding an effect that moves the sound away from what was intended / moves away from audibly transparency then that should be considered degradation, an effect used in the studio is an intended effect so that is not a degradation.

And the studio people maybe they don't want to spend time to find the suitable DSPs and DSP settings that could replace those items.
And yes indeed, if they want to keep the audiophools as customers...
In the playback of a piece there are many variations of playback that are perfectly exceptional and they are a slight tilt on flat. The use of tubes is just one way to get the desired effect. I have tube amps that are tube sounding and tube amps that are solid state sounding. Yet even with the relative solid state sound there is a warmness in places and a different sound stage. The are many variations of an even and complete frequency response. Many ways are correct. Right........your moving away from transparency. And yes it could be looked at as a degrading the sound, though many call it color or tone or personality. Nothing at all wrong with it in home playback, same as the studio.

But obviously the studio products do slightly different jobs.
 
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Nov 27, 2021 at 9:00 AM Post #420 of 577

Redcarmoose

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As already explained:
-They have those things, no reason to throw them away
-They are used to using them
-Such a list of items looks impressive to the customers
So now I show you a brand new studio that uses tube and you switch topics. Saying now there not for home use. Do you know how many people love tubes? Oh wait....it’s all marketing and fancy expectation bias, it is not real right?

A) There is no reason to throw them away...they are just acquired?
B) They just purchased them they are not used to using them.
C) Such a list looks good to customers? Watch the video at 12:22?
 

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