[bigshot]

Some people buy audio components for reasons other than audio, I guess. Standalone DACs usually have an amp built in. Maybe the extra room is needed for the amp. But you can put an audibly transparent headphone amp in an Altoids tin. Big heavy duty power transformers? Not sure.

 

[danadam]

I may have misread the linked thread, but it appears only one comparison was made for each DAC pair in the blind test. If that is the case, a lot more data points would be necessary to draw any reasonable conclusions from testing.

For reference, these below seems to be their measurements. As someone wrote:

To put into perspective how badly these DACs perform, they produce more distortion than any laptop soundcard I know of, and indeed more distortion than many speakers (and higher order - i.e. more audible - distortion at that).

Airist R2R (source):

MOS16 (source):

 

[71 dB]

Apple products have audio quality that sounds to human ears as good as any audiophile DAC.

I have used Mac mini models for 10 years and I use the 3.5 mm analog audio output connected to my audio amp. Perhaps not the "best" audio quality in the World, but for my ears easily good enough. Life can be easier and nicer when everything doesn't need to be best ever. The PC computers I had before Macs had noisy internal audio cards.

 

[Aramg]

Can someone explain the relation of tap length to sound quality?

 

[bigshot]

For reference, these below seems to be their measurements.

It may not look good in a theoretical sense, but does -70dB look audible to you?

To answer the person with the iPad... here are measurements for the iPad Pro. I don't know if that is the one you have, but if not, your regular iPad would be similar.
https://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/ipad-pro-audio-quality.htm

 

[old tech]

So my iPad dac must be tiny (just a chip?) compared to these blu-ray sized dedicated desk size dacs.

Why are these desk size dacs so big/what are they doing differently from my tiny iPad dac if the end result is audibly the same?

Pull off the cover of the deck size DACs and have a look inside. You'd be surprised either of how much empty space is in there or how that space is occupied by unnecessary shields, heat sinks or other metal to give it some weight. Compare a modern amplifier with one of just 15 years ago and see how few electrical components are under the hood. I have a pair of active speakers that have two power amps, pre-amp and a DAC inside a bookshelf enclosure. The amps are not much larger than my hand yet they pump out 150 watts of clean power. Technology advances, have a look at plug in wall transformers and how much smaller they are compared to 15 years ago, and dramatically so compared to say before the new millennium, and before that when they were a separate component because they were large and heavy. Like all like for like electronic components from 20 years ago, they are cheaper, more efficient, more reliable and better performing.

 

[Laura80]

Pull off the cover of the deck size DACs and have a look inside. You'd be surprised either of how much empty space is in there or how that space is occupied by unnecessary shields, heat sinks or other metal to give it some weight. Compare a modern amplifier with one of just 15 years ago and see how few electrical components are under the hood. I have a pair of active speakers that have two power amps, pre-amp and a DAC inside a bookshelf enclosure. The amps are not much larger than my hand yet they pump out 150 watts of clean power. Technology advances, have a look at plug in wall transformers and how much smaller they are compared to 15 years ago, and dramatically so compared to say before the new millennium, and before that when they were a separate component because they were large and heavy. Like all like for like electronic components from 20 years ago, they are cheaper, more efficient, more reliable and better performing.

Ive been watching a few YT dac review videos and they all seem to make a point of showing what’s under the hood.

And - they all claim to hear audible differences when comparing between other dacs!

 

[bigshot]

Do you think they receive some sort of payment for posting positive reviews? Do you think some posters at Head Fi might be getting swag for talking up products too?

 

[TiJo]

Maybe they hear an audible difference because the manufacturer did not create a transparent dac, but changes tonality?

 

[bigshot]

That is certainly possible, but I have yet to find one like that. If you know of a deliberately colored DAC, please let me know.

 

[old tech]

Ive been watching a few YT dac review videos and they all seem to make a point of showing what’s under the hood.

And - they all claim to hear audible differences when comparing between other dacs!

Sure, but ever wonder why they don't demonstrate through a basic level matched blind test to support their claim?

 

[KeithPhantom]

Head-Fi never changes. I don’t really know how you guys keep arguing about the same topic for so long. My question is, is getting good audio and good music that easy and boring that arguing about anecdotal differences and nitpicks is funnier and more engaging than the music itself?

 

[BrianovichIV]

I have kind of a tangential question that may not belong here. So I understand the point being made here, it makes sense, and I agree with it. I just got a new DAP and even though it has all these different (and updated!) specs it sounds the same to me. I bought it for size and features...the fact that the new one has two DACs instead of one is coincidental. Though to be fair, I did find a benefit in that the balanced output can drive my Sennheisers more efficiently and I don't need to change to the higher gain setting when I want to use them...but that's beside the point.

So with that in mind, I'm wondering if this also applies to Phono pre-amps? Are they are also largely the same and dependent on features, like DACs? I used to have an Art DJ Pre, but I recently got a Sony receiver and I switched to the built-in phono. I don't have the ability to blind compare or A/B, but I think I hear a difference? The Art DJ sounded a tiny bit better to me. Am I likely imagining that?

 

[bigshot]

Phono preamps are a little trickier, because some moving coil cartridges require particular kinds of preamps. I remember I had an Ortofon MC cart that wouldn't work with anything buy an Ortofon preamp. But in general, it isn't difficult to create a phono preamp that applies the RIAA curve and boosts to line level. Unless something is really funky, one should be as good as another. I realize audiophiles go monkey-crazy over vinyl stuff, But when you're just raising something up to line level and applying a hard wired EQ, a preamp should be transparent. The noise on the LP will dwarf any noise in the preamp. (I'm sure a vinyl nut will show up soon to loudly proclaim that only thousand dollar preamps are good enough for analogue...)

The kind of preamp where specs matter is microphone pres. When you record, you need as clean a signal as possible, because you will be pulling levels up in the mix. That low level noise makes a difference. But it isn't like that when you're just raising it a bit to a fixed line level.

My guess is that your fancy phono pre is just a little louder than the one built into the Sony. If you just raise the volume a hair, they will be the same.

 

[BrianovichIV]

Phono preamps are a little trickier, because some moving coil cartridges require particular kinds of preamps. I remember I had an Ortofon MC cart that wouldn't work with anything buy an Ortofon preamp. But in general, it isn't difficult to create a phono preamp that applies the RIAA curve and boosts to line level. Unless something is really funky, one should be as good as another. I realize audiophiles go monkey-crazy over vinyl stuff, But when you're just raising something up to line level and applying a hard wired EQ, a preamp should be transparent. The noise on the LP will dwarf any noise in the preamp. (I'm sure a vinyl nut will show up soon to loudly proclaim that only thousand dollar preamps are good enough for analogue...)

The kind of preamp where specs matter is microphone pres. When you record, you need as clean a signal as possible, because you will be pulling levels up in the mix. That low level noise makes a difference. But it isn't like that when you're just raising it a bit to a fixed line level.

My guess is that your fancy phono pre is just a little louder than the one built into the Sony. If you just raise the volume a hair, they will be the same.

Thanks. I don't have a demanding cartridge, just the lowest-level LPGear Vessel, whatever that model is. It's perfectly fine for me and the turntable I have. I have no desire to go up to anything more than this, so I'm going to assume that any phono preamp will get the job done.

I think you're right about the volume. I had to boost the phono gain in the receiver to make it match the volume from the other inputs, even then I turn the volume up a little. That makes a lot of sense.

One thing that I absolutely did notice a difference in was using the built-in headphone jack vs. a dedicated headphone amp. It's a cheap Sony receiver, so it doesn't have a separate dedicated headphone amp and everything sounded flat and muffled. So I just ran the signal out to a Magni and it sounds great now.