[chesebert]

is there some truth in saying that DAC upgrades after a certain point are no longer meaningful for headphone-only use?

No. Meaningful or not is a value judgement and the decision is personal. You can absolutely tell the difference between a $15k dac and a $30k dac. I personally think if your finance permits you should always get the best dac/source for your setup. As between headphone and speakers, it’s generally easier for an average person to pick out differences using a speaker setup vs headphone. I also wouldn’t let some reviewer sway your decision given most had limited experience with headphones.

 

[sajunky]

Let me try and distract this thread from the recent quarrelsome direction it seems to have taken with an open ended question: is there some truth in saying that DAC upgrades after a certain point are no longer meaningful for headphone-only use?

I recently read a review comparing some very expensive DACs ($30k+), where the author suggested that these only make sense if you're using speakers (and of course, very good ones), not headphones.

I'm wondering if the same advice would be relevant for $6k DACs vs $12k DACs.

Author seems evaluated only some aspects, missing other. The same phenomenon occur on the entry level equipment, far below $6k range. On some equipment only, this is a clue.

I was taking part of the experiment on diyaudio forum evaluating influence of the pass band ripple on jitter. Perhaps you know that digital brick wall filtering create regular ripples across the entire pass band. Some old scientific paper was quoted pointing out that these small ripples translate to jitter in the time domain, it should be optimised. A problem was overlooked in the past, designers of filters only focused on the transition from the pass-band and the out of band filtering efficiency.

Cutting out long story short, number of specially created samples were evaluated, including the best quality samples provided by the author of PGGB, oversampled, dithered and optionally noise shaped. I was surprised that recognising differences between the original and processed was more difficult on HD 600 headphones than on Denon PMA-520AE amp and 20 years old Wharfedale Evo2-8, very low resolving set. On speakers I heard a difference once I found what to focus on. Processed samples always had a regression of reverbation on decays, noise shaped samples were giving even more degradation of a natural sound. I think it answers a question.

During these tests I decided to not upsample on the PC. A DAC was my Audio GD R2R-11 in the same time upgraded DIY with ultra-low noise oscilators. Still an entry level NOS DAC. If you find such $350 piece, it will create a desire upgrading to a more expensive model of the same house of sound which I hear occasionally.

When I owned better equipment in the past than now, I was stuck few times on the wrong upgrade path, it was painful to go back and try again. Getting $30k+ DAC doesn't make sense if you don't know what sound you like personally. It is my second point. It always needs some experimentation. It is always good to own a secondary set, especially when using headphones.

 

[helljudgement]

Let me try and distract this thread from the recent quarrelsome direction it seems to have taken with an open ended question: is there some truth in saying that DAC upgrades after a certain point are no longer meaningful for headphone-only use?

I recently read a review comparing some very expensive DACs ($30k+), where the author suggested that these only make sense if you're using speakers (and of course, very good ones), not headphones.

I'm wondering if the same advice would be relevant for $6k DACs vs $12k DACs.

There are improvements to be had at every level. Spending megabucks on dac only makes sense if you've already established a solid base of reference and a rough idea of the sort of setup and sound you are trying to achieve. I do wonder if the current headphones and amps are bottlenecks and not able to fully showcase or take advantage of what my dac has to offer. But going to dacs of this level does still elevate my entire headphone listening experience. Though the question of worth is entirely personal.

I just don't respect him

Respect is paramount to having a thoughtful and constructive discussion. Such disrespect for another user does nothing but incite pointless negativity and drivel and adds no value to the conversation. Whatever disagreements you have with him shouldn't even be put up for discussion especially if it did nothing but steer the conversation away. Normally I'd ignore comments like these but it is just very disappointing to still see this happening till this day.

 

[RobertSM]

There are improvements to be had at every level. Spending megabucks on dac only makes sense if you've already established a solid base of reference and a rough idea of the sort of setup and sound you are trying to achieve. I do wonder if the current headphones and amps are bottlenecks and not able to fully showcase or take advantage of what my dac has to offer. But going to dacs of this level does still elevate my entire headphone listening experience. Though the question of worth is entirely personal.


Respect is paramount to having a thoughtful and constructive discussion. Such disrespect for another user does nothing but incite pointless negativity and drivel and adds no value to the conversation. Whatever disagreements you have with him shouldn't even be put up for discussion especially if it did nothing but steer the conversation away. Normally I'd ignore comments like these but it is just very disappointing to still see this happening till this day.

Let me make myself clear. Not respecting someone isn't disrespect, it's nothing, nil. I owe him zero!

In my five decades of life, and especially growing up in Los Angeles, I've learned that respect is earned, never freely given. He's a professional reviewer who I don't respect. Nothing personal.

I won't be discussing anything more on this matter. Be well.

 

[Gazza]

It doesn't have a headphone amp but the Aqua La Scala MKII DAC that I bought earlier this year did the unthinkable and made digital audio a wholly organic and cohesive medium that no longer plays second-fiddle to vinyl. Maybe it's that it's a NOS FPGA R2R design, maybe it's the hybrid JFET/valve output stage. Can't say but this magical DAC from Milan has a rightness to the sound that just makes me want to listen to music non-stop. Don't think that it's a warm, fuzzy romantic sound for a second, however as the La Scala will tell you exactly what's on the recording, warts-and-all but not in a lifeless, surgical manner that other DACs manage. There is life here.

Give it a listen. Was a massive upgrade over my Naim NDX for what it's worth.

 

[RobertSM]

I think I also auditioned this DAC earlier this year. Is this the optologic model from Aqua? If so, then I really also loved it! A great DAC and suggestion!

 

[Gazza]

I think I also auditioned this DAC earlier this year. Is this the optologic model from Aqua? If so, then I really also loved it! A great DAC and suggestion!

That's the one. Glad you enjoyed what you heard.

 

[RobertSM]

That's the one. Glad you enjoyed what you heard.

It was excellent. The dealer also mentioned that one could further improve the performance by adding in a linear pair of tubes such as Telefunkens. Regardless it was a joy to audition.

 

[sajunky]

It doesn't have a headphone amp but the Aqua La Scala MKII DAC that I bought earlier this year did the unthinkable and made digital audio a wholly organic and cohesive medium that no longer plays second-fiddle to vinyl. Maybe it's that it's a NOS FPGA R2R design, maybe it's the hybrid JFET/valve output stage. Can't say but this magical DAC from Milan has a rightness to the sound that just makes me want to listen to music non-stop. Don't think that it's a warm, fuzzy romantic sound for a second, however as the La Scala will tell you exactly what's on the recording, warts-and-all but not in a lifeless, surgical manner that other DACs manage. There is life here.

Give it a listen. Was a massive upgrade over my Naim NDX for what it's worth.

Yes, I am sure a reason: R2R is a key feature, NOS complete it. Not all R2R DACs are NOS. NOS became a popular marketing cheat these days. If they are true NOS and output buffers are a discrete non-feedback design (no opamps), then pairing with tube amp is recommend, as @RobertSM noted.

 

[chesebert]

You sure Aqua La Scala sounds good? It can only resolve like 12-13 bits coupled with heavy harmonic distortion on the output and high jitter on the digital inputs. I guess you like what you like.

 

[Riccioli30]

You sure Aqua La Scala sounds good? It can only resolve like 12-13 bits coupled with heavy harmonic distortion on the output and high jitter on the digital inputs. I guess you like what you like.

Aqua La Scala it's a great DAC. Perhaps a little extra-budget but competitive. I don't know the technical aspects and I'm only talking about the sound in a speaker system (no headphones) and IMO, of course.

 

[RobertSM]

I also heard it in a two-channel system. I don't remember what the pre-amp or power amp were but definitely remember the speakers were Focal. It sounded fantastic. Very musical and organic.

 

[chesebert]

How much are these Aqua dacs? I have heard dacs that are below $10k that do musical and organic sound really well but can’t compete on resolution, soundstage or holographic sound. I can absolutely accept that because you get what you pay for and you can’t expect to have everything with a mid priced gear. I think if the Aqua dacs are over $10k-20k, then you should probably go with brands that can give you everything without materially sacrificing any one aspect of music reproduction.

 

[Gazza]

You sure Aqua La Scala sounds good? It can only resolve like 12-13 bits coupled with heavy harmonic distortion on the output and high jitter on the digital inputs. I guess you like what you like.

How much are these Aqua dacs? I have heard dacs that are below $10k that do musical and organic sound really well but can’t compete on resolution, soundstage or holographic sound. I can absolutely accept that because you get what you pay for and you can’t expect to have everything with a mid priced gear. I think if the Aqua dacs are over $10k-20k, then you should probably go with brands that can give you everything without materially sacrificing any one aspect of music reproduction.

It does give me everything as a matter of fact. More detail than I've ever heard, a soundstage that is huge and three dimensional, impact, rhythm, etc. Not just me either, as I had a few friends come around who are audiophiles (for want of a better word) who were taken aback by how good the La Scala sounded. So much so, that I hauled it to one of their houses so that they could listen to it in there system and they are now considering buying it.

Trust me, I'm not a fool. I worked in hi-fi retail for a decade and heard many, many systems and the La Scala is still something really special. And I'm the antithesis of the "audiophile who listens to their system, not music" as 95% of what I play is extreme metal that is often poorly recorded, not the ephemeral whale-sounds that many feed into their system to sound great.

Is it for you? I don't know and don't care. That's for you to listen to and judge should you be inclined. For me the La Scala helps me connect to my favorite music better than before. That's all one can ask from their hi-fi gear.

 

[chesebert]

It does give me everything as a matter of fact. More detail than I've ever heard, a soundstage that is huge and three dimensional, impact, rhythm, etc. Not just me either, as I had a few friends come around who are audiophiles (for want of a better word) who were taken aback by how good the La Scala sounded. So much so, that I hauled it to one of their houses so that they could listen to it in there system and they are now considering buying it.

Trust me, I'm not a fool. I worked in hi-fi retail for a decade and heard many, many systems and the La Scala is still something really special. And I'm the antithesis of the "audiophile who listens to their system, not music" as 95% of what I play is extreme metal that is often poorly recorded, not the ephemeral whale-sounds that many feed into their system to sound great.

Is it for you? I don't know and don't care. That's for you to listen to and judge should you be inclined. For me the La Scala helps me connect to my favorite music better than before. That's all one can ask from their hi-fi gear.

Seems like a well thought out pairing for you. I have gone through the r2r with tube phase already and my music preference is very different from yours. Having choice is a good thing.