D2 and IEMs - inline impedence boost?

[PWilson]

Hi,

I've recently got myself a Cowon D2, and am pretty happy with it, but would of course like to tweak the sound to get the most out of it. Trawling head-fi and other sources has revealed that the D2, when used with low impedence phones, suffers very early bass rolloff.

The majority of IEMs are low impedence, and while I'm looking at new IEMs, I'm not sure I want to be limited to buying high impedence just for the sake of the D2.

Can anyone point me towards a decent quality impedence gain/attenuator that I could put in the line to get a better response out of the player? Is this a simple item I can get from a local electronics store? It'll mainly be used unamped, but it's capable of driving bigger cans, so something in the realm of 100-150 ohms would be suitable, at a guess? I'm in Oz, but if something can't be gotten locally, I've got no issue with buying from US.

Cheers.

 

[ER4 Lover]

1. i don't know where you get the sense that high impedance IEMs have better SQ. There is no proof on this thoery.
2. You thought D2 has enough power out put to drive ER4s,ER4b,E5C these kind of high impedance IEMs well(37+37mW max out put looks good enough eh)?
In fact, D2's actual out put is no bigger than an ipod 4th gen.



So, choose ER4p, sf5 pro, TF10...they are as good as those high impedance IEMs are.

 

[PWilson]

I'm not suggesting that higher impedence makes a phone better. But what I get from research like this and this (linked by shigzeo on another thread about the D2) is that the D2 needs a higher impedence before it starts broadcasting the lower frequency information. Low impedence IEMs aren't being fed the full signal.

This is esp an issue because I'm leaning toward Ety ER6/ER4 IEMs, which are already described as bass lean. I don't want to deprive them of what bass they can have (because the ER4Ps, for example, should be able to play lower than the D2 rolls them off).

ATM, I use it for driving weeny little CX300s, and of course I can blow my eardrums out if I want to (which I don't). But I've also used them with 64 ohm, 100dB ATA-A500s, and while I had to turn it up, it still played louder than I'd listen to it. And I've heard people talk about running 250 and 300 ohm Senns off it. So I'm hoping it shouldn't have too much trouble running ER4Ss, or if I can stretch the budget, TripleFi10Pro's with an attenuator to get a better frequency response.

I guess 100 ohms is probably over the top (beyond what the driver would play anyway). Maybe aiming for something like 60 ohms overall is a better target?

 

[LostPhil]

Yes, the sound does improve with higher impedance 'phones just because the D2 can cope with the low frequencies. Nothing to do with higher impedance headphones sounding better in general, ER4 Lover.

You can get ER4p to ER4s adapters (75 ohm) such as this to use with lower impedance headphones but this may change the sound signature. My Mylarone x3i's sound decent with this.

60-80 ohms total should be fine.

I have no experience of higher impedance IEMs without adapters so I will have to leave it at that.

 

[Rob E.]

The D2's bass can go very low, and with much music, is truthful to the music. It's especially good on classical. It's forte (however) is not big impactful dynamic bass of the order of what the Meizu M6 SL can do. Etymotics are similar in this regard. Their forte is truthful bass but not big dynamic, impactful low frequencies. They are a wonder at everything else. Easy to blame the D2 for the weakness of the Etymotic (if the Etymotics real sonic signature is not to your liking). Similarly, the reverse is true. Easy to blame the Etymotic if the D2's less than big impactful bass doesn't please you, because it is accurate and true to the music if properly adjusted. They may for you, not be synergistically a good match. For me, I'm perfectly happy with UM2's and Super.Fi 5 pro's on the D2 unamped. You might be happy with the same or the Triple.Fi's which I'd suggest before the Etymotics. But perhaps you might like them as well. Just my $.02, in trying to convey that at this level of quality... synergy's of key importance.

Good Luck,

 

[shigzeo]

i would listen to the d2 and if it seems that you are not bothered by what some of us find to be a too small ss and muddy bass, just go for the imp adapter. otherwise, i would just enjoy it the way it is.

the adapter should open up the ss and because of that help with the muddy bass - however i found the bass to be muddy mainly with fast paced trance for instance. not bass driven slow stuff like rap, but fast.

check apuresound's impedence adapters which are quite small but a little on the expensive side if you like.

 

[shigzeo]

the bass problem is nothing not normal. most all daps have the same problems with bass roll off. i pointed that out to show that it is in no way a super performer. the bass-roll does not even remotely bother me but what does me is the narrow ss that just dumped everything together and had trouble with stereo imaging whenmost of my trance is on the edge of a knife as for sharpness is concerned.

i do prefer the nano 3g and meizu m6 though the meizu hisses like a tornado it suffers not this same stereo problems that d2 has

 

[PWilson]

Thanks for the information, gents. Phil/shigzeo, that's the sort of thing I was looking for, thanks. I was aware Etymotic do one in house, but $65 US is a bit steep for what it is, imo. At least until I can prove to myself it's something I need in my system and that a cheap one degrades the signal too much. Would like to find one that's on a cable, as otherwise it sticks out from the unit a bit much, but this is a good start

Phil, I'm glad to hear you use the adaptor and like the results.

shigzeo, I'm aware from the other thread that you're not really a fan of the D2 sound. I've not had any DAPs before though, so in the end I had to do some reading and make a call. So far, I'm quite impressed with the instrument seperation and dynamics, and that's mainly what I listen for (I'm lousy at picking soundstage).

Rob, thanks for the input. I actually place a much greater emphasis on nice sparkling highs and clean midrange, and I value the rapid transient attack of the bass more than the bloom anyway, which is why I'm tending towards Etys. But I figure there's no need to deprive myself of the tight bass the Etys can produce if I don't need to. If the D2 is really muddy in the bass, I might unplug the attenuator. But at least I get the option for not too much money.

Most of what I'll be listening to is metal or classical, so for the metal at least, it's more about the transients (for me, anyway). Probably hiss would annoy me quite a bit, as the stuff I'm listening to has a lot of quiet bridge sections with clean picking, and I'd like that against a black background of silence. I've found the D2 doesn't really hiss that I can notice.

 

[shigzeo]

yes the small amount of hiss with the d2 is nice unless you own very sensitive phones like um2

 

[LostPhil]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWilson /img/forum/go_quote.gif Would like to find one that's on a cable, as otherwise it sticks out from the unit a bit much, but this is a good start Phil, I'm glad to hear you use the adaptor and like the results.

I use a small headphone extension cable with a right angled plug with the adapter on the end as I was worried about it too! I'm sure they're pretty cheap (I just had an old Sony one lying around).

 

[Rob E.]

D2's bass isn't muddy when its sound tailoring abilities are properly adjusted. I mean this in regard to music be it Rock, Jazz, Classical, etc, when the recording is good be it live or studio. If it can do this with REAL intrumental music, it can certainly do it with electronic or computer generated music. Real instruments have a basis in the real world. There is a reproducible reference to their quality. Despite what one thinks is good or bad (based on subjective & fallible opinion, i.e., whether one likes it or not), real instruments can be reproduced correctly or incorrectly. Electronic music can't by its nature be said to be rightly or wrongly done. If you like the way it's reproduced, that's great! The D2 can't get electronic music wrong if it does get real world instruments right. If you don't like it for it's bass - see what I posted above. If you don't like it for its SQ, you don't have enough of a reference on real world instruments to set it up properly. Shigzeo... put on some Crusaders, or Acoustic Alchemy, Donald Fagen/Steely Dan, Bela Fleck, Miles Davis, Three Blind Mice, any Mercury recording ripped from the Living Presence series CD's (I can go on and on) and tell me the D2's muddy - and I'm just gonna say you haven't taken the time to set it up properly, or just don't know how. BTW, I respect your right to like or dislike... anything... Period. But if you're just going to bash what in my reality is very good... than I have to stand up for it.

 

[shigzeo]

i said speed bass-driven music. if you listened to trance with a d2 and then heard the same music from other portables you sould see what the problems are and how the stereo image becomes a puddle in the centre. in any case mate, thanks for the lesson on my favourite instruments.

in any case, you know you can post about any other portable player - that you don' tlike it and for some reason the fans just take it like this: okay that is your opninion. but with d2 for some reason, every time i mention that it has this bad stage and that it does trance worse than any other player i have heard, i get smashed. if i supply graphs that support the claim small ss or so, it does't matter, i am told that somehow i am wrong.

in any case, rob i owned this thing for almost a year, more than many who are experts and tell me i don't know what i am talking about have owned. i am not bashing your reality. from what i understand, we listen to different musics. if you were a trance fan and had listened to other players playing the same songs, then you and i could have a better chat.

you should recall that i have said that i love the d2 for high imp phones more than any other portable. it doesn't get any better of volume than the ipod but somehow just is more impressive. so, that narrows down my bashing to one thing only: trance' bass performance and its inarticulate bass reproduction with low imp high sensitivity phones like what i own: atrio m5, denon c700 and other 16 ohm phones.

im glad that we are having this conversation.

 

[PWilson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostPhil /img/forum/go_quote.gif I use a small headphone extension cable with a right angled plug with the adapter on the end as I was worried about it too! I'm sure they're pretty cheap (I just had an old Sony one lying around).

A ha! Good idea. That should do the trick.

Thanks for the input, guys. Let's keep it civil, eh?

 

[shigzeo]

the sony cables that come with even their cheaper phones are great extensions, i use one for my hp-fx500 rather than th really long one that came with it. sony have a low microphonic cabl that doesn't get tangled easily either.

 

[jant71]

The Head-Direct is a fair bit cheaper than the Ety adapter.
Head-Direct.com
A couple of people have said it is a nice cable but I don't have one myself.

I have a Cowon U5(32 + 32mw) and use the actual Ety S adapter from my ER4 days.

A few things. Don't forget to factor in sensitivity as well as impedance. The Cowons are way overrated power wise as it is total power with effects or EQ gained up. My U5 seems to be ~16 ohms per. The power is never really usable since adding gain leads to distortion above a volume of 35.

That said, my unamped U5 works beautifully with adapted SE420(~97 Ohm 109 sens.), Victor/JVC S900(~115 Ohm 105 sens.), and Sony CD2000(~107 Ohm 106 sens.) The D2 should have no issues with a 75 Ohm adapter. It puts these phones in the Cowons' sweet spot in the volume band(29-33).

The Ety doesn't have the tightest bass. The ER4S is tighter than the P. The bass seems tight due to shorten transients and less impact but it doesn't hold up that well. I've found that my Adapted SE420 and Adapted UE 3 Studio w/Westone cable have tighter bass that doesn't muddle as easy as the Ety. This is with more natural transients that are still fast but more complete. This means that drums sound like drums not like partial drums. The echo and reverb/secondary harmonics are there not cut off. Not amped correctly Ety's lose the trailing sounds of string reverb and the drums aren't quite complete.

Also, I know the D2 and U5 have different chips. I think the U5 is more neutral but many say the D2 is cold. Maybe the U5 is warmer than the D2. I know the U5 is different as the soundstage is larger than the Sony and iriver I had. Not as warm as the iriver or Sony but warmer than Toshiba or Meizu M6SL. I have had all recently. So the point is if the D2 is colder than the U5 I wouldn't get the Ety's for a D2. I would go for something SA6 or SE420 especially using an adapter.

Also if the D2 soundstage is smaller the Ety's are a bad match even if it improves with added impedance. Again, SA6 or SE420 soundstages are much better than Ety. Two weak components(for soundstage) probably should not be matched up. Of course many like the Cowon Ety match since they both have more detail. The SE420 has as much detail as the ER4S and a larger soundstage. The combo with both having more detail and good soundstage is quite amazing for an unamped portable!