Even with a small library, adding a CX makes considerable difference to the performance.
A good review on Hifi- Advice explains it well https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/re...network-player-reviews/antipodes-cx-ex-part1/
CX, EX, K, S, Oladra, Antipodes, Owners Unite
- Thread starter Clive101
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Even with a small library, adding a CX makes considerable difference to the performance.
A good review on Hifi- Advice explains it well https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/re...network-player-reviews/antipodes-cx-ex-part1/
I putting together a server: Plex for movies, JRiver for remote bit perfect streaming and roon for local music streaming. It will also run HQPlayer to my Chord TT/Pi4. That will leave the EX to render HQPlayer embedded by alsa to the TT2. Unfortunately not a CX.
I am upscaling 44.1 to 705.6 kHz, so double the numbers above.
If upscaling PCM it makes sense to use the full capacity of the DAC.
ReAgent86
New Head-Fier
New member here! I joined Head-Fi because I ran across this very helpful Antipodes forum.
I recently purchased the entire four-module "solution," so CX + EX + P1 + P2. I initially opted for the P2 because I've been a little leery inn the past of USB-only servers due to some painful fatigue issues, so I wanted to have other output options to fine-tune the sound profile. Turns out I didn't need the SPDIF outputs because the Antipodes implements the USB just fine. Works splendidly with an FTA Callisto USB cable going to my Lampizator Golden Gate R2R DAC.
I wanted to share my experiences with the software options and get some feedback. Thus far, I've tried a few of the server-renderer combos and the best sound I've achieved are with the Logitech Media Server on the CX and Squeezelite on the EX. The Squeezelite interface is a whole other question, not only visually but in terms of reliability. Tracks seem to cut off or skip. Also can't seem to get DSD tracks to play, though the latter problem isn't a dealbreaker for me.
I had tried Roon early on in the process, but my two-week trial subscription expired (carried over from an Innuos Zenith audition), and so I don't remember the Roon sound quality that well in terms of all the comparisons. I do recall that on the Innuos, the Squeezelite implementation of Roon sounded far superior than Roon alone. And I do remember that was true on the CX/EX as well, but my question is whether the LMS/Squeezelite is still better than Ronn/Squeezelite. I know the LMS/SQ:L combo sounds great on my system, but was wondering if anyone had recently compared it to Roon with SQL. I may just have to bite the bullet and pay for a Roon subscription to compare again. But before I do, can anyone also comment on whether the HQ Player is superior to SQL as a player to Roon? No oversampling needed, just want to play redbook. Many thanks!
I recently purchased the entire four-module "solution," so CX + EX + P1 + P2. I initially opted for the P2 because I've been a little leery inn the past of USB-only servers due to some painful fatigue issues, so I wanted to have other output options to fine-tune the sound profile. Turns out I didn't need the SPDIF outputs because the Antipodes implements the USB just fine. Works splendidly with an FTA Callisto USB cable going to my Lampizator Golden Gate R2R DAC.
I wanted to share my experiences with the software options and get some feedback. Thus far, I've tried a few of the server-renderer combos and the best sound I've achieved are with the Logitech Media Server on the CX and Squeezelite on the EX. The Squeezelite interface is a whole other question, not only visually but in terms of reliability. Tracks seem to cut off or skip. Also can't seem to get DSD tracks to play, though the latter problem isn't a dealbreaker for me.
I had tried Roon early on in the process, but my two-week trial subscription expired (carried over from an Innuos Zenith audition), and so I don't remember the Roon sound quality that well in terms of all the comparisons. I do recall that on the Innuos, the Squeezelite implementation of Roon sounded far superior than Roon alone. And I do remember that was true on the CX/EX as well, but my question is whether the LMS/Squeezelite is still better than Ronn/Squeezelite. I know the LMS/SQ:L combo sounds great on my system, but was wondering if anyone had recently compared it to Roon with SQL. I may just have to bite the bullet and pay for a Roon subscription to compare again. But before I do, can anyone also comment on whether the HQ Player is superior to SQL as a player to Roon? No oversampling needed, just want to play redbook. Many thanks!
Welcome to the forum!
I have not done a huge amount of experimenting with different players. I like Roon for its library management, metadata handling and integration with streaming services. I would not give it up as a front end.
When I had my Innuos Zen I used the squeezelite player because that was the only way you could use the Zen as a combined Roon core and player. With Antipodes there is far more flexibility. With my EX I have only used Roon stand alone and Roon+HQ Player. HQP is a large step up, but I am doing PCM upscaling to 705.6 kHz into a Chord Dac. The main reason to use HQP is for the quality of the upscaling filters. I am not sure there would be much benefit if you weren't doing any upscaling, but its free to try. It’s pre installed on the Antipodes hardware and it works for half an hour without a license.
Is there any reason why you don’t want to try upscaling?
I have not done a huge amount of experimenting with different players. I like Roon for its library management, metadata handling and integration with streaming services. I would not give it up as a front end.
When I had my Innuos Zen I used the squeezelite player because that was the only way you could use the Zen as a combined Roon core and player. With Antipodes there is far more flexibility. With my EX I have only used Roon stand alone and Roon+HQ Player. HQP is a large step up, but I am doing PCM upscaling to 705.6 kHz into a Chord Dac. The main reason to use HQP is for the quality of the upscaling filters. I am not sure there would be much benefit if you weren't doing any upscaling, but its free to try. It’s pre installed on the Antipodes hardware and it works for half an hour without a license.
Is there any reason why you don’t want to try upscaling?
@ReAgent86 Welcome. I have never tried sqz but have used mpd fed from audirvana. I feel it is slightly better sounding than roon bridge. I much prefer hqplayer with upscaled pcm to my tt2 as it is more analog sounding with no fatigue. Roon is the best interface for music discovery imho. Audirvana for my dlna devices.
ReAgent86
New Head-Fier
Thanks, Andrew!
The main issue I've shied away from upscaling in the past is because of my delicate ears. In the percentage of people with "fatigue" issues, I rank pretty high up on the scale. When I step into most boutique audio stores, I usually have to leave within a couple minutes. Oversampling seems to be one of several fatigue triggers for me. I've never been able to successfully co-exist with an oversampling DAC, so I've always stuck to the R2R models, such as MHDT, Metrum, and now an older Lampizator DAC.
I do concur that Roon is a great interface, and in perusing the Computer Audiophile forum and Roon's own user site, I think there's pretty broad agreement that SQL is a much better renderer for Roon than Roon's native player, but SQL is not supported by Roon and depends on the "experimental" implementations by the server manufacturers like Innuos and Antipodes. I do wonder whether some of the playback issues (skipping) I've experienced on LMS with SQL will transfer over to Roon with SQL.
The main issue I've shied away from upscaling in the past is because of my delicate ears. In the percentage of people with "fatigue" issues, I rank pretty high up on the scale. When I step into most boutique audio stores, I usually have to leave within a couple minutes. Oversampling seems to be one of several fatigue triggers for me. I've never been able to successfully co-exist with an oversampling DAC, so I've always stuck to the R2R models, such as MHDT, Metrum, and now an older Lampizator DAC.
I do concur that Roon is a great interface, and in perusing the Computer Audiophile forum and Roon's own user site, I think there's pretty broad agreement that SQL is a much better renderer for Roon than Roon's native player, but SQL is not supported by Roon and depends on the "experimental" implementations by the server manufacturers like Innuos and Antipodes. I do wonder whether some of the playback issues (skipping) I've experienced on LMS with SQL will transfer over to Roon with SQL.
ReAgent86
New Head-Fier
Progisus, thank you for the tip on Audirvana and MPD. I did try MPD on the EX to use the CX as NAS and played it through Cantata. To me, the sound quality was not as good as LMS on the CX and SQL on the EX. That combo is absolutely superb. It's too bad for the sucky LMS/SQL interface. I have a MAC and I have to use the webplayer (iPeng only works on IOS), and even with an updated skin, the library management and discovery features are quite limited. Oh, one other thing! I did find that the sound quality of Tidal was excellent through LMS/SQL Technically, I think Antipodes says that SSD playback provides the top-tier sound, but I noticed no diminution in sound when streaming Tidal through LMS.
Kapiti
Member of the Trade: Antipodes Audio
In a CX+EX context the re-serving of TIDAL by the CX improves things a lot. If using LMS, have you tried the Material skin? I like it a lot as it is simple and fast. Plus a web app has some nice advantages over using a client app.
Kapiti
Member of the Trade: Antipodes Audio
Do you have the same reaction to so-called high-res files, or just upsampled files? I find high bit-rate playback is a two-edged sword - better in some respects and worse in others, whether they are real high bit-rate files or upsampled ones.
That skipping experience with LMS is certainly not normal, and it sounds like you should contact Antipodes Support to see if there is something wrong in your setup.
ReAgent86
New Head-Fier
Thanks, Mark! Kudos for an excellent product and for the great musical enjoyment it brings me.
Yes, I am using Material Skin, and it does improve the interface a tad, but as someone who had the original Logitech Squeezebox many years back, and after using the BluOS ecosystem extensively, and very briefly, Room, I'm finding it difficult to downshift back to LMS as a music organizer. Sound-wise no complaints! In fact, I get the feeling that it may be the optimal implementation of the CX/EX. Hence, my original question whether Roon server would be a step back even with the SQL playback.
As to hi-res question, I don't have many PCM tracks above 16/44. The few forays I've made into DSD prior to the Antipodes were not well received by my ears. I was hoping to try out a few sample DSD tracks that I downloaded to the CX, but as I mentioned I was not able to play them. I'll check with Tony about that and a couple of the other SQL playback issues, as there a lot buried menus on Material Skin interface and I'm sure he can sort it out quickly for me.
Yes, I am using Material Skin, and it does improve the interface a tad, but as someone who had the original Logitech Squeezebox many years back, and after using the BluOS ecosystem extensively, and very briefly, Room, I'm finding it difficult to downshift back to LMS as a music organizer. Sound-wise no complaints! In fact, I get the feeling that it may be the optimal implementation of the CX/EX. Hence, my original question whether Roon server would be a step back even with the SQL playback.
As to hi-res question, I don't have many PCM tracks above 16/44. The few forays I've made into DSD prior to the Antipodes were not well received by my ears. I was hoping to try out a few sample DSD tracks that I downloaded to the CX, but as I mentioned I was not able to play them. I'll check with Tony about that and a couple of the other SQL playback issues, as there a lot buried menus on Material Skin interface and I'm sure he can sort it out quickly for me.
Clive101
500+ Head-Fier
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Welcome @ReAgent86
I have the same problem with brightness and find most of the rooms in a HiFi shows to be bright.
My Speaker system did suffer from this and over the past few years leaning to the more musical side rather than super detail which is one reason why I purchased the CX and EX over other high end servers.
Nothing wrong with a nice sparkle or shimmer though, but I seem very sensitive to harshness in treble (not to be confused with natural harshness of some instruments).
Recently I have been trying HQP as an up-scaler and player and Roon Ready with Roon just on the EX (as my CX was on holiday).
I tried a few of the recommended HQP filters and played with and without.
Roon Ready was dynamic where as HQP was a little to soft in the treble for me (oddly).
I was not impressed with either (compared to the CX EX Combo) although the EX still better than other servers at the same cost or perhaps more expensive and the flexibility is second to none.
My strong suggestion is only try the CX EX combo if funds permit as you will want one....! Or should I need one
I did try LMS/Squeezelite with the CX EX combo sometime ago and preferred Roon with Roon Ready which is now what I use.
I must revisit the LMS/Squeezelite option as tastes can change and doing a change after a few months is a great way to do an alternative A B.
I have the same problem with brightness and find most of the rooms in a HiFi shows to be bright.
My Speaker system did suffer from this and over the past few years leaning to the more musical side rather than super detail which is one reason why I purchased the CX and EX over other high end servers.
Nothing wrong with a nice sparkle or shimmer though, but I seem very sensitive to harshness in treble (not to be confused with natural harshness of some instruments).
Recently I have been trying HQP as an up-scaler and player and Roon Ready with Roon just on the EX (as my CX was on holiday).
I tried a few of the recommended HQP filters and played with and without.
Roon Ready was dynamic where as HQP was a little to soft in the treble for me (oddly).
I was not impressed with either (compared to the CX EX Combo) although the EX still better than other servers at the same cost or perhaps more expensive and the flexibility is second to none.
My strong suggestion is only try the CX EX combo if funds permit as you will want one....! Or should I need one
I did try LMS/Squeezelite with the CX EX combo sometime ago and preferred Roon with Roon Ready which is now what I use.
I must revisit the LMS/Squeezelite option as tastes can change and doing a change after a few months is a great way to do an alternative A B.
Last edited:
ReAgent86
New Head-Fier
Thank you,Clive!
Agree with you that the fatigue issue often pivots around the question of musicality vs detail. Over the years, I've had to be very cautious about overly-forward ("front row") sound profiles. For example, I did get my DSD working on LMS/SQL last night. Downloaded a sample DSD track and it sounded like the orchestra was right there in my apartment. Unbelievable sound quality, but within twenty seconds, I had to turn it off, and my ears were hurting an hour later. No more DSD for me!
It sounds like you've tried the LMS/SQL server-player combo but preferred Roon Server/Roon Ready. Have you tried SQL as the player for Roon in place of Roon Ready?
Note for anyone out there interested in purchasing a CX/EX combo, I noticed that Apex Stereo listed a lightly-used one on Audiogon at a reasonable price.
Agree with you that the fatigue issue often pivots around the question of musicality vs detail. Over the years, I've had to be very cautious about overly-forward ("front row") sound profiles. For example, I did get my DSD working on LMS/SQL last night. Downloaded a sample DSD track and it sounded like the orchestra was right there in my apartment. Unbelievable sound quality, but within twenty seconds, I had to turn it off, and my ears were hurting an hour later. No more DSD for me!
It sounds like you've tried the LMS/SQL server-player combo but preferred Roon Server/Roon Ready. Have you tried SQL as the player for Roon in place of Roon Ready?
Note for anyone out there interested in purchasing a CX/EX combo, I noticed that Apex Stereo listed a lightly-used one on Audiogon at a reasonable price.
Lol...like I said, something obscene
I suppose I would of thought this amount of upscaling was obscene a couple of years ago, but reading about and auditioning Chord’s upscalers has changed my views on this. It is a low computational overhead for PCM and results in a signal that is more faithful to the original analogue signal.
For me it is not about more detail, but realism. Before lockdown myself and my wife would try to go to live music performances as often as possible and this resets the brain as to what a good hifi should sound like. In my opinion upscaling with HQP gets me a sound that is closer to a live performance. It is not about the amount of upscaling applied, but the quality of the filter used. I would agree with Rob Watts’ argument that the timing of transients is critical for creating a realistic sounding signal, and to get accurate timing you need the best possible reconstruction filter to reproduce the signal between the digitised samples.
Antipodes has a similar design philosphy in that they do not overdo the noise filtering as this can remove high frequency signal that is critical for transient perception. This is why Innuos servers sound lush and warm but not as realistic as Antipodes (my opinion, based on owning both). The innuos is great for laid back genres but is not a good all rounder. If I want to tune my setup for different genres I would rather do that by choosing different headphones and/or amplifiers instead of adversely damaging the HF signal in the server.
I think the mathematical theory that underlies the filter design in Chord DACS and HQP software is sound. You can test by taking a native signal with a high sample rate, delete intermediate samples and then try to reconstruct the known missing signal with different filters. Note that all DACS do upscaling, its just a question of how well the reconstruction filter represents the analogue signal. Even the so called Non Oversampling Dacs do a rudimentary upscaling using a ’sample and hold’ approach. It can be mathematically proven that this does a poor job of reconstructing the intermediate samples.
In summary, if you have not heard upscaling done well, I would recommend trying again with either HQP software or a Chord M scaler.
For me it is not about more detail, but realism. Before lockdown myself and my wife would try to go to live music performances as often as possible and this resets the brain as to what a good hifi should sound like. In my opinion upscaling with HQP gets me a sound that is closer to a live performance. It is not about the amount of upscaling applied, but the quality of the filter used. I would agree with Rob Watts’ argument that the timing of transients is critical for creating a realistic sounding signal, and to get accurate timing you need the best possible reconstruction filter to reproduce the signal between the digitised samples.
Antipodes has a similar design philosphy in that they do not overdo the noise filtering as this can remove high frequency signal that is critical for transient perception. This is why Innuos servers sound lush and warm but not as realistic as Antipodes (my opinion, based on owning both). The innuos is great for laid back genres but is not a good all rounder. If I want to tune my setup for different genres I would rather do that by choosing different headphones and/or amplifiers instead of adversely damaging the HF signal in the server.
I think the mathematical theory that underlies the filter design in Chord DACS and HQP software is sound. You can test by taking a native signal with a high sample rate, delete intermediate samples and then try to reconstruct the known missing signal with different filters. Note that all DACS do upscaling, its just a question of how well the reconstruction filter represents the analogue signal. Even the so called Non Oversampling Dacs do a rudimentary upscaling using a ’sample and hold’ approach. It can be mathematically proven that this does a poor job of reconstructing the intermediate samples.
In summary, if you have not heard upscaling done well, I would recommend trying again with either HQP software or a Chord M scaler.
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