custom IEMs as reference headphones; who's doing it??

[qusp]

Ok well I had this idea of starting this thread a little while ago, but never quite got around to it. Lately with the quality of sound coming out of customs on the improve, there are stirrings happening. In both the JH|13 and ES3X threads I have noticed a trend starting, where people are beginning to use their customs in preference to their fullsize headphones and speakers due to the amazing detail retrieval they are capable of. this group includes myself, some even ditching their home rigs altogether and selling them. i'm not talking about just because of convenience here either; i'm talking because they actually prefer them.

both of these IEMs are capable of sounding more than respectable straight out of the HP out of a quality dap and I see mention sometimes that they do not need more; I strongly disagree with this sentiment; they dont 'NEED' more, but OMG they love it!!! plug them into a portable dac/amp and the performance kicks it up a notch; at this point and they start to show what they are truly capable of, and I tell you my fullsize headphones are looking pretty scared/scarred right about now

Now here's the thing and the purpose of this thread; I myself have actually consciously started tuning my home rig for my JH13 in preference to my denons and senns, as at this point, source is as usual key to putting a huge smile on yer dial, but with customs being usually quite efficient (and these two fit that description pretty well); what becomes most important in taking them to new heights, is supplying them with gobs of resolution and the quietest of noise-floors. the customs themselves are very helpful in this process, as if there is a small problem i your rig, be it ground loops, power supply issues, bad synergy with your interconnects etc etc.you are gonna hear it.

so when building my buffalo32 just recently, i chose to install load setting resistors (vishay/dale nude S102s) tuned specifically for my JH13, along with a direct line (via a switch) sans resistors feeding the same balanced XLR outputs to my powered monitors or HD600/woody D2000. I also have some single ended outputs to drive my Lisa III/LLP if i wish, but when thinking of the next step to do with my idle hands; what requirements was I looking for??....

Yes i'm primarily looking for a fullsize reference home headphone amp (possibly hybrid or a separate tube buffer/pre) that is primarily suited to driving the quite difficult low impedance load of my IEMs. if it sounds great with my fullsize headphones as well; great!! but that is not my primary concern. I want quiet magic

so who else is doing something similar?? I would love to see exactly how many people will put their hands up for this; as even as recently as 6 months ago, I reckon someone doing such a thing, might have been putting their hand up for a bit of ridicule, but with the buzz about customs at the moment and the sheer number of people in the threads; including some very senior/respected members coming out and saying that they more often find themselves listening to and even preferring their customs to their megadollar home rigs, has the idea gaining some credence. not just for convenience either, but because for whatever reason they are actually preferring them sonically as well.

lately reviews; such as one of the most awaited events (for some) to happen on here in a while; the big custom IEM shootout by HA, had him using this variety of customs not only on portable rigs, but possibly moreso with home rigs for reference quality output. then add to that the more recent and wonderfully through and well written review by Rd. Seraphim, in which he reviewed his new Sonnet, which was bought primarily as an amp for his ES3X.

so my question is, how many of us are there out there doing this?? and what steps are you taking to tune your home rigs for your IEMs?? eg. running them with an aftermarket balanced cable. what advantages are you finding and what areas are you finding need more work?? perhaps new gear you would like, that may not yet be available readily?? I'm thinking a low output tube buffer to add a touch more meat to the soundstage, without side effects or hiss that can be presented to such by tube gear to such a highly sensitive load. or an all SLA battery power supply (this one is high on my list)

oh and I absolutely feel that there is nothing we have to feel less than or silly about; these things are precision instruments, capable of some seriously engaging performance at least as good in most areas as any headphone i have yet heard., time to give them something to sing about. thing is that its easy to come off sounding like a loon, because there is no way to demonstrate it to anyone who doesnt have any customs of their own; Then there is the popular (and IMO misguided) belief that all things that have a low impedance are automatically easy to drive (because they go loud

) and therefor wont show improvement with an amp.

so hands up, who is using their customs (or even high end universals I guess) as part of a reference home headphone rig?? and further, who is actively designing their home rig around them?? I know Brad (hockeyb) is using his JH13 with his Beta22.

sorry for the long winded and somewhat rambling post, hope it made sense to someone, thanks for reading. i'm going to bed now, its late here in OZ, but i'm very interested in the response.
oh, one thing, i'm not going to be selling my fullsize headphones anytime soon, well certainly not yet, there are still areas that they still outperform quality customs, but in the areas that they win, the customs do so well enough that I can do without it most of the time.

hello everyone, I am qusp and I like to wear my portable headphones inside ;P

 

[Scott_Tarlow]

I am, all though my rig is a modest Pico DAC/Amp and I just bought a iBasso D10.

 

[qusp]

sure yeah thats fine, but I dont see much in the way of fullsize gear in your sig that you might prefer them over. other than the Jade that is

the D10 is not modest though man, the sound from that little thing can be quite surprising; as with the pico, but IEMs of this type can scale even greater heights. I look forward to the new version in november as something to get close to home dac performance on the road.

no offense, but your kind of behavior is quite common on here, especially in this section of the forums, but i'm looking for responses from people taking the next step and breaking down the boundaries between portable and home kit

 

[robm321]

Thank you for this thread.

I have seriously been wondering lately if having the JH13s would be all that I need considering my speaker rig. It sounds much more ideal then having 3 headphones and an IEM AND a speaker rig for 2 ears

- simply put, I just feel guilty having so many ways to listen, and am not as into equipment as I am into just getting the music right. Ideally, I'd just want one IEM/headphone to just enjoy the music without all the different presentations.

I'd assume some others might feel the same. I will enjoy this thread

 

[achristilaw]

Yes, the JH13's can sound good out of most anything but can sound GREAT out of some discerning Home Gear. I just un-screwed the Monitor from listening to Simon & Garfunkel "Live from New York City: 1967", Columbia/Legacy (Carnegie Hall no less) via the custom sources an the Naim Headline 2w/ PS2. All I can say is "Holy Howdy".

Certain amps (Naim, DNA Sonett) liken those pieces of "Audio Jewelry" to tandem time capsules. I can't find the superlatives to do them justice.

The Audio ideals and dictum's such as a "straight wire with gain" are, just that, ideals.

For Speakers it's a "Mass infinitely smaller than the point of a pin, that would radiate DC to light, omni directionally at any dynamic of the original performance".

Well we are no closer than the Amp perfection as we are to Speaker, but it will do till something else come along. JERRY HARVEY FOR PRESIDENT!!!

 

[thread]

Yes! I have found that using my JH13 on my home rig is mind-blowingly awesome. My RPX-33 is dead silent, and I just love everything about the sound -- it's a good improvement over my portable amps.

Edit: Holy cow; 1000 posts!!!

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you for this thread. I have seriously been wondering lately if having the JH13s would be all that I need considering my speaker rig. It sounds much more ideal then having 3 headphones and an IEM AND a speaker rig for 2 ears - simply put, I just feel guilty having so many ways to listen, and am not as into equipment as I am into just getting the music right. Ideally, I'd just want one IEM/headphone to just enjoy the music without all the different presentations. I'd assume some others might feel the same. I will enjoy this thread

no problem Rob, your right this is a new way of thinking in that regard, I too feel a bit strange about having multiple high quality headphones, so recently I actually started giving them away (temporarily) to friends to use, so they were at least getting some head time.

i'm hoping for this thread to be a resource for those trying to make that jump. A spectacular (or just plain good) speaker rig plus customs I think would get you both worlds as soundstage is really the only area that IEMs dont quite measure up, and even then its only the size of the stage that isnt quite so deep, what there is, is very convincing and imaging is superb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by achristilaw /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, the JH13's can sound good out of most anything but can sound GREAT out of some discerning Home Gear. I just un-screwed the Monitor from listening to Simon & Garfunkel "Live from New York City: 1967", Columbia/Legacy (Carnegie Hall no less) via the custom sources an the Naim Headline 2w/ PS2. All I can say is "Holy Howdy". Certain amps (Naim, DNA Sonett) liken those pieces of "Audio Jewelry" to tandem time capsules. I can't find the superlatives to do them justice. The Audio ideals and dictum's such as a "straight wire with gain" are, just that, ideals. For Speakers it's a "Mass infinitely smaller than the point of a pin, that would radiate DC to light, omni directionally at any dynamic of the original performance". http://www.head-fi.org/forums/images...es/atsmile.gif Well we are no closer than the Amp perfection as we are to Speaker, but it will do till something else come along. JERRY HARVEY FOR PRESIDENT!!!

correct, I wont be resting on my laurels anytime soon , but i'm tending to be at a point where I know fairly specifically what I want and could be pretty happy with what I have already for a while; all that is left for me is the above amp/buffer, i'm becoming more and more interested in the sonnet day by day. though however I would probably DIY the amp and buy a nice little tube pre



Quote:

Originally Posted by thread /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes! I have found that using my JH13 on my home rig is mind-blowingly awesome. My RPX-33 is dead silent, and I just love everything about the sound -- it's a good improvement over my portable amps. Edit: Holy cow; 1000 posts!!!

nice!! rudy makes some great stuff; glad to hear it works well with the 13''s

congrats on 1000 posts!!

 

[roy_jones]

Good thread.

A lot of people come to head-fi in an effort to improve the sound out of their iPod. These people have little experience or exposure to high end audio. They get hooked into the world of portable audio by upgrading their earbuds to an IEM. They start to explore the limits of portable audio hi-fi.

Generally speaking, they're part of a mass consumer market, as opposed to the more specialized market populated by audiophiles. You see people with $1500 portable rigs with their ALO docks, etc...

I think that, traditionally, a lot of the skepticism towards IEM's as a primary home headphone has been a result of the associated gullibility that headphone users have viewed portable enthusiasts with. The people who don't really understand the value or engineering principles of various components. They're able to be suckered into questionable products on the basis of their naivety as mass consumers attempting to enter a specialized market.

That's the context that I believe has given rise to the attitude towards using an IEM in a reference home system.

In terms of the actual merits of IEM's as a primary headphone, I think it's an open question. The technology is improving at a rapid pace, largely because it's a segment of audio that DOES cater to a more mass-oriented market.

The problem with IEM's is soundstage. I say this, and I have to qualify my statement, because I don't own a high end custom. But it's a big factor.

From a technical standpoint, I'm not yet convinced that IEM's can scale with components in the same way that full-sized headphones that have been designed to be used together can. To be more specific, I'd be interested to see whether there is a saturation point in amping IEM's, whereby further increases in power don't produce a significant improvement of result.

I'm personally unclear on whether amping an IEM with a $5000 tube amp would be meaningfully better than using a portable amp that was specifically designed for IEM's, if measured in a DBT. Maybe I'm wrong on that- because the same principle of theoretical overkill probably applies to headphones, too, on some level....


*I should probably add, I've been considering using IEM's as my primary headphone in a home setup, so I'm curious about the experiences of those who are also doing so. For me, it would be a more modest proposition. I'm not thinking so much about using the same type of rig that I would use for an R10, that would in some ways defeat my purpose. However, using my KICAS with a ~$500 home DAC is probably what I'd be aiming for. Potentially, if the HiFiMan is well reviewed, I could see myself scrapping the home system altogether.

In conversations about portable audio vs. home audio, there isn't enough acknowledgment of the value of having really good sounding audio out of technologically innovative and miniaturized equipment. I think if you get away from that, which pairing customs with home gear can do, then you in some ways lose that unique advantage and value. Why not get a HD800 if you're just going to be listening at home? There's no reason to compromise on soundstage if you have no reason to....

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roy_jones /img/forum/go_quote.gif Good thread. A lot of people come to head-fi in an effort to improve the sound out of their iPod. These people have little experience or exposure to high end audio. They get hooked into the world of portable audio by upgrading their earbuds to an IEM. They start to explore the limits of portable audio hi-fi. Generally speaking, they're part of a mass consumer market, as opposed to the more specialized market populated by audiophiles. You see people with $1500 portable rigs with their ALO docks, etc...

correct; many will become involved in a kind of keeping up with the jones's type attitude and invest heavily in areas that may not be the best choice at that point in time for maximizing performance. I see a lot of this first hand as a kind of advisor/mentor guess and mostly do what i can to alert them to this, sometimes though, there is nothing that will sway these people from following through a path that advertising speak has ordained.

Quote:

I think that, traditionally, a lot of the skepticism towards IEM's as a primary home headphone has been a result of the associated gullibility that headphone users have viewed portable enthusiasts with. The people who don't really understand the value or engineering principles of various components. They're able to be suckered into questionable products on the basis of their naivety as mass consumers attempting to enter a specialized market.

hmm I know; and IMO its a little bit of 'the pot calling the kettle black' syndrome; powering headphones with speaker amps is no less overkill than much of what I see happening in portable audio. there are some areas of course where as I stated above, people will set themselves on a course without knowing exactly what they are trying to achieve, ignoring source and focusing on amplification is one area I see that 'me too' thing driving peoples decisions. cables and amps are seemingly much more glamorous status type objects than simply making sure the source and headphones are well taken care of first

Quote:

That's the context that I believe has given rise to the attitude towards using an IEM in a reference home system.

yes and all without having tried it out for themselves. now I wouldnt recommend just jumping straight into what i'm doing without first seeing what you might be missing with fullsize rigs, but these days IMO its actually more economical to get brilliant sound out of a set of high end customs and a portable amp/dac than it is to match that performance with a set of fullsize headphones and a quality source and amp. ;let alone the sort of money you would have to spend on a speaker rig. now as I said; soundstage size is certainly one area that IEMs fall behind, but IMO, even though my JH13 do not match a quality open headphone in this area, they do however match (or better) some of the less soundstageeous fullsize headphones. and certainly IMO the accuracy and instrument placement within the soundstage they have, is unparalleled by anything below HD800

Quote:

In terms of the actual merits of IEM's as a primary headphone, I think it's an open question. The technology is improving at a rapid pace, largely because it's a segment of audio that DOES cater to a more mass-oriented market.

yep, and the pinnacle is being driven by the music industry; or more accurately, the musicians themselves

Quote:

The problem with IEM's is soundstage. I say this, and I have to qualify my statement, because I don't own a high end custom. But it's a big factor.

see above and in my OP, depth of soundstage is not an area of strength even with customs, but the other factors that influence soundstage are certainly well covered.

Quote:

From a technical standpoint, I'm not yet convinced that IEM's can scale with components in the same way that full-sized headphones that have been designed to be used together can. To be more specific, I'd be interested to see whether there is a saturation point in amping IEM's, whereby further increases in power don't produce a significant improvement of result.

well, like I said, there are other factors that I am looking for beyond power, it is not more power that I hunger for, I have plenty straight out of the buffalo32 and Lisa III even, the search is for dynamics, speed and very low noise floor, but with the magic that IMO only discrete components can provide. well even that is beginning to change with some of the work that has been done on modern opamps and other SMD components. for me, the home amp is the last, but not insignificant step, I will probably even do more work on my power supply before I get another amp; IMO as always source is the area that will produce more benefit; thus my dual mono Buffalo32

Quote:

I'm personally unclear on whether amping an IEM with a $5000 tube amp would be meaningfully better than using a portable amp that was specifically designed for IEM's, if measured in a DBT. Maybe I'm wrong on that- because the same principle of theoretical overkill probably applies to headphones, too, on some level....

well I doubt that I would fail a test comparing my D10 or even Lisa III to balanced out of a beta22 or even balanced M^3. when doing the rounds at the sydney meet a little while ago, I was simply blown away with the sound I got out of some of the rigs that were there which is what started my search. and I have arguably the 2 best sounding portable rigs on the market (currently available). I had already started the buffalo32 build, which was intended primarily for my HD600 and denons, but I shifted focus somewhat to allow for this change in direction if it proved fruitful


Quote:

*I should probably add, I've been considering using IEM's as my primary headphone in a home setup, so I'm curious about the experiences of those who are also doing so. For me, it would be a more modest proposition. I'm not thinking so much about using the same type of rig that I would use for an R10, that would in some ways defeat my purpose. However, using my KICAS with a ~$500 home DAC is probably what I'd be aiming for. Potentially, if the HiFiMan is well reviewed, I could see myself scrapping the home system altogether.

well from my experience I would focus as much as is reasonable on your source first; after the IEMs themselves of course.

Quote:

In conversations about portable audio vs. home audio, there isn't enough acknowledgment of the value of having really good sounding audio out of technologically innovative and miniaturized equipment. I think if you get away from that, which pairing customs with home gear can do, then you in some ways lose that unique advantage and value. Why not get a HD800 if you're just going to be listening at home? There's no reason to compromise on soundstage if you have no reason to....

how does it get away from that?? what is stopping you from using your customs in that same manner while portable?? thats what i'm doing, I bought these JH13 because I use public transport a lot, enjoy walking and my workshop downstairs is not really suitable for having a fullsize rig set-up; discovering I may actually prefer them to my headphones was merely a pleasant surprise. they are also a useful tool for my work, for any R&D I might be doing with my cables and mods etc.

besides, like I said and not just me; i'm not sure I even prefer HD800; do I prefer the HD800 soundstage and air?? sure; is that enough to sway me away from the sound I get from JH13?? too close to call and certainly not enough at this stage to spend the much larger amount it would take to tune my whole rig around them. luckily its pretty likely that the rig I end up with will sound pretty fantastic with them IF I do get them.

 

[milford302009]

i find my ACS-T1 sounds great on my Meier Corda Aria, the highs,mids are slightly better then my D10, tho the bass is lacking...i have it sitting around, may as well use it....
i find my T1s sound better then my D2000s tho... havn't had much experience with full size headphones, only had the D2000s and 595s...

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif hmm I know; and IMO its a little bit of 'the pot calling the kettle black' syndrome; powering headphones with speaker amps is no less overkill than much of what I see happening in portable audio. there are some areas of course where as I stated above, people will set themselves on a course without knowing exactly what they are trying to achieve, ignoring source and focusing on amplification is one area I see that 'me too' thing driving peoples decisions. cables and amps are seemingly much more glamorous status type objects than simply making sure the source and headphones are well taken care of first

We're definitely of the same opinion when it comes to the source/amp debate. I think it may even be more significant to have a really good source with IEM's, as the detail retrieval takes on a more significant role. I've always been confused about why source seems to be less of a concern than amps.


Quote:

yes and all without having tried it out for themselves. now I wouldnt recommend just jumping straight into what i'm doing without first seeing what you might be missing with fullsize rigs, but these days IMO its actually more economical to get brilliant sound out of a set of high end customs and a portable amp/dac than it is to match that performance with a set of fullsize headphones and a quality source and amp. ;let alone the sort of money you would have to spend on a speaker rig. now as I said; soundstage size is certainly one area that IEMs fall behind, but IMO, even though my JH13 do not match a quality open headphone in this area, they do however match (or better) some of the less soundstageeous fullsize headphones. and certainly IMO the accuracy and instrument placement within the soundstage they have, is unparalleled by anything below HD800

I agree that it's easier to get great sound out of customs/IEM's. I'm really curious to try a pair of higher end customs to get a better feel for the soundstage issue. I haven't heard the HD800, but I have owned some of the nicer Audio-technicas (w5000, L3000), and it's hard for me to imagine customs coming close- not saying it's not possible, it just strikes me as a hard feat to achieve.

The air and depth and separation is something I miss now with Grado's being my current preferred headphones. Part of the reason I'm thinking about going the custom route is because I find myself dissatisfied with the compromises I have to make between full-sized headphones below $1000. It's either great refinement/separation/soundstage at the expense of PRaT, or the reverse scenario.

I haven't tried stats, though, so I might be missing on a possible answer by not trying that route. The reason I'm leaning towards customs is because I want the intimacy/speed as well as the imaging and separation.

Quote:

well, like I said, there are other factors that I am looking for beyond power, it is not more power that I hunger for, I have plenty straight out of the buffalo32 and Lisa III even, the search is for dynamics, speed and very low noise floor, but with the magic that IMO only discrete components can provide. well even that is beginning to change with some of the work that has been done on modern opamps and other SMD components. for me, the home amp is the last, but not insignificant step, I will probably even do more work on my power supply before I get another amp; IMO as always source is the area that will produce more benefit; thus my dual mono Buffalo32

That strategy makes sense. Noise floor can be tricky, and that's why I think this thread is a good idea, because there are specific issues that are unique to IEM users that are trying to integrate these different 'worlds'. I'd really like to upgrade my DAC. Just by chance, it's ended up that it's the weakest point in my chain right now, and it's not because I don't view it as important, but rather the timing of deals coming up, etc...

Quote:

well I doubt that I would fail a test comparing my D10 or even Lisa III to balanced out of a beta22 or even balanced M^3. when doing the rounds at the sydney meet a little while ago, I was simply blown away with the sound I got out of some of the rigs that were there which is what started my search. and I have arguably the 2 best sounding portable rigs on the market (currently available). I had already started the buffalo32 build, which was intended primarily for my HD600 and denons, but I shifted focus somewhat to allow for this change in direction if it proved fruitful

I believe you when you say that you could easily distinguish the differences between amps. I'd love the chance to be able to do some ABX at a smaller style meet, where I could really get a feel for the differences. Personally, I'm on the skeptical end of the spectrum, not because I don't think there are real differences, but my own methodology requires me to verify as much as I can myself empirically. It's the trial-and-error attitude more than anything else. I've recently become interested in the various debates that go on about blind testing and the audio critic stuff.


Quote:

how does it get away from that?? what is stopping you from using your customs in that same manner while portable?? thats what i'm doing, I bought these JH13 because I use public transport a lot, enjoy walking and my workshop downstairs is not really suitable for having a fullsize rig set-up; discovering I may actually prefer them to my headphones was merely a pleasant surprise. they are also a useful tool for my work, for any R&D I might be doing with my cables and mods etc. besides, like I said and not just me; i'm not sure I even prefer HD800; do I prefer the HD800 soundstage and air?? sure; is that enough to sway me away from the sound I get from JH13?? too close to call and certainly not enough at this stage to spend the much larger amount it would take to tune my whole rig around them. luckily its pretty likely that the rig I end up with will sound pretty fantastic with them IF I do get them.

The issue for me isn't that customs can't be used in place of full-sized headphones, but rather that they can be used with lesser equipment and not suffer as badly from the downstream components. In terms of budgeting, if I could put more $$ into customs and be able to shave down some of my investment in the other components, then it changes the value configuration of my system.

It's amazing that there are customs that perform at the level of the top end full sized headphones. I think I'm going to have to experience it before I can truly get my head around it.

Soundstage isn't as huge for me as it would be for others who may listen to a lot of classical, etc... Something I've been thinking about recently is that, even though Grados are criticized for their lack of soundstage, it isn't necessarily that they lack soundstage, but rather that they're just set more forward, which I think is often represented as a 'lack' of soundstage, when that's not really the best way to describe it. It's something I have to remind myself of when I start to feel nostalgic for cans with more air/depth.

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roy_jones /img/forum/go_quote.gif We're definitely of the same opinion when it comes to the source/amp debate. I think it may even be more significant to have a really good source with IEM's, as the detail retrieval takes on a more significant role. I've always been confused about why source seems to be less of a concern than amps.

exactly my point and yeah I do find it quite confusing why source is not given the attention it deserves in many cases



Quote:

I agree that it's easier to get great sound out of customs/IEM's. I'm really curious to try a pair of higher end customs to get a better feel for the soundstage issue. I haven't heard the HD800, but I have owned some of the nicer Audio-technicas (w5000, L3000), and it's hard for me to imagine customs coming close- not saying it's not possible, it just strikes me as a hard feat to achieve.

the soundstage issue with IEMs and customs in particular is, as always to a great degree dictated by the amount of detail present and noise floor with IEMs. it certainly is hard to get your head around, but IME when presented with a great source and adequate amplification; this is when customs and their soundstage really begin to shine. I have on more than one occasion found myself walking along and doing a double take to see who is behind me while listening to a recording that may have a derelict noise in the recording; something happening in the studio that was not picked up or edited out by the producer. or in a live recording in an intimate venue, when someone says something in the crowd. I must have come off looking like a loon on more than one occasion

it is still not of the size of open headphones of high quality, but with a good source and good source material, the illusion does extend outside the head. the rockbox crossfeed helps this illusion out some as well with material that can take it.

Quote:

The air and depth and separation is something I miss now with Grado's being my current preferred headphones. Part of the reason I'm thinking about going the custom route is because I find myself dissatisfied with the compromises I have to make between full-sized headphones below $1000. It's either great refinement/separation/soundstage at the expense of PRaT, or the reverse scenario.

exactly; JH13 may not be perfect, but its as close to it as I have owned and very consistent as well; very neutral, but at the same time not lacking ...'personality' I guess many headphones I have heard that do a god job of remaining neutral, come of sounding boring without some form of EQ or processing. these days i'm getting better battery life from my iriver and DIYMODs because I find myself never using any kind of EQ at all.

Quote:

I haven't tried stats, though, so I might be missing on a possible answer by not trying that route. The reason I'm leaning towards customs is because I want the intimacy/speed as well as the imaging and separation.

yeah well I have never heard anything approaching a high end stat ; I stayed well away from that poison as I know what sort of money it takes to do it well and i'm simply not prepared for that. but people who have seem to be comparing JH13 to stats in the areas you mention right ^^^ definitely more bass than I remember from the limited experience I have. now I know thats a cliche, but it held true for me.



Quote:

That strategy makes sense. Noise floor can be tricky, and that's why I think this thread is a good idea, because there are specific issues that are unique to IEM users that are trying to integrate these different 'worlds'.

yeah that was the point, not much response though

maybe i'm ahead of my time

hehe. regarding noise floor; I would love to go fully DC with all PSU's. SLA batteries FTW, its not a pipe-dream either; way I figure it, it shouldnt cost me really any more than doing AC properly, which would involve taking AC and transforming it to DC and back to AC again before presenting it to the gear; AKA power regeneration.

Quote:

I'd really like to upgrade my DAC. Just by chance, it's ended up that it's the weakest point in my chain right now, and it's not because I don't view it as important, but rather the timing of deals coming up, etc...

yeah well I highly recommend it before you make your final decision on HP's, because you could find yourself totally changing the sound of your rig, maybe even to the point where you arent that keen on the whole package. better to get source taken care of first IMO.

I get where you're coming from though, its not a perfect world and sometimes we have to take the opportunities presented to us. some of us that dont have the seemingly limitless budgets that abound here; live in a world where value based decisions are certainly not the least important



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I believe you when you say that you could easily distinguish the differences between amps. I'd love the chance to be able to do some ABX at a smaller style meet, where I could really get a feel for the differences. Personally, I'm on the skeptical end of the spectrum, not because I don't think there are real differences, but my own methodology requires me to verify as much as I can myself empirically. It's the trial-and-error attitude more than anything else. I've recently become interested in the various debates that go on about blind testing and the audio critic stuff.

yeah smaller meets are great like that, we were spoiled with good kit and not many people this last one and was good both for quality listening and conversation. i'm not a fan of DBT at this end of the spectrum in general, but the differences were large enough that i feel confident I would be able to do it. lets end that there, dont want the thread to be shut down. I have recently embarked on a similar journey re power, i believe skepticism in moderate amounts is healthy and should be part of any forward thinking agenda.


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The issue for me isn't that customs can't be used in place of full-sized headphones, but rather that they can be used with lesser equipment and not suffer as badly from the downstream components. In terms of budgeting, if I could put more $$ into customs and be able to shave down some of my investment in the other components, then it changes the value configuration of my system.

true, but do not make the mistake of thinking they are immune to bad decisions or bad synergy; they do not sound great out of just anything

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It's amazing that there are customs that perform at the level of the top end full sized headphones. I think I'm going to have to experience it before I can truly get my head around it.

agreed, its still a compromise, but definitely one i'm willing to take; i'm still hedging my bets though

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Soundstage isn't as huge for me as it would be for others who may listen to a lot of classical, etc... Something I've been thinking about recently is that, even though Grados are criticized for their lack of soundstage, it isn't necessarily that they lack soundstage, but rather that they're just set more forward, which I think is often represented as a 'lack' of soundstage, when that's not really the best way to describe it. It's something I have to remind myself of when I start to feel nostalgic for cans with more air/depth.

true, it does seem to a large extent that many headphones with a really wide and deep soundstage, do have a slight bump in the bass and highs, adding the illusion of more space, even JH13 have a touch of a bump in the sub-bass, which I personally enjoy a great deal



ok now i'm done with that; where is everyone?? common guys I know you are out there; perhaps I should also post this in another forum and cross reference it???

 

[qusp]

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Originally Posted by milford302009 /img/forum/go_quote.gif i find my ACS-T1 sounds great on my Meier Corda Aria, the highs,mids are slightly better then my D10, tho the bass is lacking...i have it sitting around, may as well use it.... i find my T1s sound better then my D2000s tho... havn't had much experience with full size headphones, only had the D2000s and 595s...

for sure man; mix and match all you want; IMO its only when the D2000 are modded/recabled/woodied that they compete with good customs at all. even the bass is not as potent as JH13 IMO. these are the cans first on the chopping block and those who know me and my posts know how much I have enjoyed them. i'm just not using them and i'm not in this to collect things

 

[spahn_ranch]

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Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif where is everyone??

Awrite. All I've got here is I'm going to demo JH13 universals, hopefully next week, and will bring my other stuff for a good lengthy shootout. I mostly use my full sized by the desk, but I'll often get the most enjoyment out of phones when thoroughly relaxing, couch, bed, etc, and that's just one of typical buds and IEM territories.
Possibly I'll find a full sized can rig the prime solution for periods during which I may have no access to speakers, but disregarding that and if the JH13 are approximately what I expect from the reviews, I won't feel particularly strange about the thought of gearing towards speakers and buds/IEMs and clearing out the middle ground.

 

[achristilaw]

The "locations in time" are different of the imaging vs. "over the ear phones".

With, example, the HD800 I'm a witness to the "past" recording venue.

With the JH13PRO (and perhaps other top-flite IEM's), I am a "participant" in the recording venue (if well recorded).

I have great sources, the HD800 has me investigating even better. I have amps that do drive it but will add more of the finest available. I own (2) HD800's, just because one will be hard-wired, but which wire? Next....was three balanced cables to check on flavor for the decision making process, resulting in Headphone re-think, and a lot of Frickin Money! Is this necessary? Actually for convergence to a single phone (yeah it's that good) it was AND is necessary. The face of my Wallet is on a milk carton!!!

Now I need two phones (Dammit)!!

With the JH13PRO, after the initial cost, you already have something that will drive it (rub sockie on the carpet if your Ipod battery runs out). Streaming Audio (for you young folks) has come of age, and doesn't warrant the cost of the arm and leg combo. With these you can enjoy a slice of Audio Heaven and Eat it to!

I wouldn't have believed an IEM capable of anything close to Audio Nirvana. I liked (an still have UM2's) and hated the UE5's and ER6's because they fell apart and had questionable sound properties. None of these prepared me for the 13PRO's.

Can the JH de-thrown the HD800 after optimal set-up? NO....not quite there yet. The ease of dynamics...the space needed for Musician interplay (a particular need for Jazz Musicians). Can it unfold and uncomplicate the space needed for a Symphony Orchestra??...NO (but comes damn close). It's a Mystery (more like Harvey magic) that as much air...in as much space can be manipulated as it is!

The great accolade...I don't have an urge to grab another set of phones with the JH13PRO's screwed in the head! And I do a bunch of silly "bobbin' n' grin's" to the Music, what's that about?