"Crisp" headphone?
Feb 6, 2017 at 4:10 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 27

thyname

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Probably not the right to describe it, but is there such thing as "crisp" headphones?
 
What I mean, is a headphone that have the following:
 
1 - Great soundstage 
 
2 - Sound very crisp on the highs. Something that I cannot describe, but I hear on my home audio system, and fail to hear a lot in my current headphones (HiFiMan HE-400i open-back, and Audeze EL-8 Titanium closed-back).
 
3 - Good separation of channels
 
Does it make sense?
 
What I have sounds missing to me. I am not very familiar with HiFi on headphones, as this is the first really endeavor on them. But I do feel like what I have is not good enough for me. I am now "wow-ed" if you know what I mean. 
 
Currently listening through Oppo HA-2 (portable) and the built in Cipher cable on the Audeze. I do have a decent desktop DAC/Amp coming tomorrow (TEAC UD-503), so maybe that will change things around.
 
I am looking at something sub $1K, with potential candidates (all open-back):
 
1 - HiFiMan HE-560
2 - Focal Elear
3 - Audeze LCD-2
4 - Oppo PM-2 (I hear it is the same with PM-1, except for build)
5 - Sennheiser HD 600
 
Any helps is appreciated! (and pardon my "newbie" stance).
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 4:19 PM Post #2 of 27
Absolutely, crisp headphones that sparkle in the treble do exist. I can say that the HD 600's and LCD-2's are probably less on the crisp side and more on the warmer side. I own a pair of Beyer T90's that absolutely sparkle and have good soundstage too, so I recommend them. Channel separation has more to do with the DAC / amp.
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 4:24 PM Post #3 of 27
I was also going to suggest T90's - first thing I thought of when I heard "crisp". I'd describe them as bright, or sparkly, and they have great soundstage.
 
From OP's description it sounds like they'd like some presence in the treble, LCD-2's PM-2's and HD600's are the only ones I've listened to on the list and they're all quite relaxed-sounding. 
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 4:32 PM Post #4 of 27
Thank you both!
 
I was not aware of the Beyerdynamic T90 , so I will look them up right away. I learned something already!
 
I also sounds like I will have to eliminate the HD 600, PM-2 and Audeze LCD-2 from my list.
 
So that leaves:
 
1 - HiFiMan HE560 (since I already have the 400i, would the HE-560 sound more "crisp" and have better soundstage than the 400i?)
 
2 - Focal Elear (this one is one of the top picks for open-backs on InnerFidelity website).
 
Thoughts are welcome!
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 4:47 PM Post #5 of 27
AKG 712 and 812 have a bright tone and offer pretty huge sound stage and nice imaging.

Also the new Mr. Speakers AEON sounded very tight @ CanJam

Perhaps an HD800 used can be had in your price point...

I was not impressed with the Elear.

Def remove HD600 and LCDs off of your list....not at all what you have described.
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 5:00 PM Post #6 of 27
Thanks!
 
I will take a look at AKG.
 
I am surprised nobody has mentioned Grado. Those are often mentioned when discussion "bright" headphones, as in "metal" sound for listening to heavy metal and hard rock.
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 5:02 PM Post #7 of 27
  AKG 712 and 812 have a bright tone and offer pretty huge sound stage and nice imaging.

Also the new Mr. Speakers AEON sounded very tight @ CanJam

Perhaps an HD800 used can be had in your price point...

I was not impressed with the Elear.

Def remove HD600 and LCDs off of your list....not at all what you have described.

+1 on the K712 and K812. They could be what you are looking for. I would also add the DT 990, which definitely has some brightness to it and a fun sort of signature going on..
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 5:04 PM Post #8 of 27
Grados are nice,esp the lower tier 80e to 325e,once you go above those I think there are better options for the cash.Theyre a very polarizing sound,many hate em,and others rabidly defend them.

My issue with Grados isnt the sound,rather the on-ear which isnt comfortable to me for more than 30 mins or so,but I have small ears so YMMV.
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 5:16 PM Post #9 of 27
  Thanks!
 
I will take a look at AKG.
 
I am surprised nobody has mentioned Grado. Those are often mentioned when discussion "bright" headphones, as in "metal" sound for listening to heavy metal and hard rock.

Are rock and metal your primary music choices? If so theres a thread specifically for that,which can be found here

Also I can toss AKG K240 sextetts into the mix,however theyre vintage cans,so buying used is a must,but theyre incredible at imaging and ultra fast for metal...in fact theyre my go to cans for metal over my other much more expensive headphones.

Its also worth mentioning that a lot of rock and metal dont have huge soundstage anyways,so that could be an issue.
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 5:21 PM Post #10 of 27
  Are rock and metal your primary music choices? If so theres a thread specifically for that,which can be found here

Also I can toss AKG K240 sextetts into the mix,however theyre vintage cans,so buying used is a must,but theyre incredible at imaging and ultra fast for metal...in fact theyre my go to cans for metal over my other much more expensive headphones.

Its also worth mentioning that a lot of rock and metal dont have huge soundstage anyways,so that could be an issue.

Yes, metal is my primary music choice, but not the only one.
 
I did post on that thread a few days back, and the only reply I received was actually from you :)
 
I will go over that "metal" thread when I have time. Many pages to read out there....
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 5:32 PM Post #11 of 27
  Yes, metal is my primary music choice, but not the only one.
 
I did post on that thread a few days back, and the only reply I received was actually from you :)
 
I will go over that "metal" thread when I have time. Many pages to read out there....

Ahhh,well many of us were busy at Canjam NYC this past week,so perhaps try again?

As a metal head(and rock and blues and surf and trance) my headphone collection is mostly tailored towards those genres...all are guitar(mids) oriented,except for trance,hence the LCD-2s for the prodigious sub bass extension.

None of my collection has what I would call a spacious sound stage tho,cuz as I said its not really essential in metal/rock,etc...I previously owned Beyer T1s and those had amazing imaging and soundstage,but they were too lean in midbass for me. The AKG  712 and 812 I recommended earlier will provide that soundstage,but I find them too lean for metal.

The AEON isnt midbass heavy but it sounded really good listening to Jefferson Airplane @ CanJam....they had a nice soundstage for a closed back too.

Generally the guys over in the metal thread are pretty helpful...I'd give the thread another chance,or check into my suggestions...If you have any questions feel free to PM me.
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 5:40 PM Post #12 of 27
  Ahhh,well many of us were busy at Canjam NYC this past week,so perhaps try again?

As a metal head(and rock and blues and surf and trance) my headphone collection is mostly tailored towards those genres...all are guitar(mids) oriented,except for trance,hence the LCD-2s for the prodigious sub bass extension.

None of my collection has what I would call a spacious sound stage tho,cuz as I said its not really essential in metal/rock,etc...I previously owned Beyer T1s and those had amazing imaging and soundstage,but they were too lean in midbass for me. The AKG  712 and 812 I recommended earlier will provide that soundstage,but I find them too lean for metal.

The AEON isnt midbass heavy but it sounded really good listening to Jefferson Airplane @ CanJam....they had a nice soundstage for a closed back too.

Generally the guys over in the metal thread are pretty helpful...I'd give the thread another chance,or check into my suggestions...If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

 
Sounds good! I will re-post my OP there. Thanks!
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 11:06 PM Post #13 of 27
  Probably not the right to describe it, but is there such thing as "crisp" headphones?
 
What I mean, is a headphone that have the following:
 
1 - Great soundstage 
---
3 - Good separation of channels
 
Does it make sense?

 
You'd stand a better chance of getting "crisp" headphones by dunking them in an egg-potato starch batter then frying it at 100C and then at 250C than considering #1 and #3 as something only a "crisp" headphone can have.  Jokes aside, any decent headphone should have those regardless of the treble characteristics (more on this below).
 
 
2 - Sound very crisp on the highs. Something that I cannot describe, but I hear on my home audio system, and fail to hear a lot in my current headphones (HiFiMan HE-400i open-back, and Audeze EL-8 Titanium closed-back).
------
What I have sounds missing to me. I am not very familiar with HiFi on headphones, as this is the first really endeavor on them. But I do feel like what I have is not good enough for me. I am now "wow-ed" if you know what I mean. 

 
There are numerous factors and problems you're not taking into account here.
 
First off, the response curves on those headphones aren't exactly emphasizing the treble. The EL-8 AFAIK has an overall smoother curve but with a slighlty rolled off treble. The HE400i has two short peaks above where 1000hz is (and it's ruler flat from there down to 10hz), but it does take a nose dive between 1000hz and the first peak and a slight dip between the two peaks. And again the peaks aren't all that tall.
 
Second, these are fullrange drivers, and just like with single FR driver speakers, given current technological limitations they're either too far from linear between 20hz to 20000hz, or they can be relatively smooth but take a nose dive earlier at either end. Add to the range width and curve shape other considerations like sensitivity and impedance, and driver design ultimately isn't as easy as it can be, especially vs speakers that can have more than one driver.
 
Third, while I might hazard a guess that you could have high frequency hearing loss and thus would be better served by a headphone with treble peaks, I'd have to clear up that this isn't a clear path to getting what you want. The peak/s can have the exact opposite effect rather than basically cancel out what you're missing, and worse, often it can impact the imaging. Boosting the treble for example pushes the cymbals forward, like on Grados. AKG's K7-- series has treble peaks as well however the K701, K702, and Q701 mitigate that consequence with angled headphone pads. These mimic the toe in of speakers (ie, put zero toe-in on your speakers and you get a very forward sound with no depth in the image), taking the drivers off-axis relative to your ear canals. I even wear these pushed forward to take the drivers even farther out from my ear canals rather than just have good depth but leave the cymbals crashing loudly just by my temples.
 
Fourth, and this is related to the previous points, you can't just compare speakers to headphones as it's a totally different acoustic situation. The first point is favored by engineers and consumers in dealing with the second point precisely because of the ones in the third point. Also, that cymbals-forward for outflanking double-pincer crushing envelopment cavalry charge effect on headphones is enhanced precisely because of the differences in how the sound is treated: the drivers are right outside your ears plus left ear can't hear right ear and vice versa (thereby making for less cross-channel spatial cues that position the cymbals toward the center). By contrast, with speakers you deal with reflections (something you can reduce by just moving the speakers and chair farther from the surrounding walls, if not treating the entire room) and toe-in angles to match the dispersion angles. Coupled with specialized drivers with crossovers that counter the higher sensitivity of tweeters, the risk of getting peaks is a lot lower on speakers also barring reflections, while the tweeters remain comparatively flatter farther up the range. And then you have an entire room to work with where reflections or at least a reverb throughout the room helps in what you perceive, kind of like how people have similar issues at the low freqs without taking into account that drivers right by your ears or inside your ear canals aren't exactly going to give the chest-thumping bass of a subwoofer or large towers driven by powerful amps at high volume.
 
Fifth, that doesn't even take into account what specific speakers you're comparing those specific headphones to. If you were using Aurum Cantus or Magnepans, the only way to match the treble with Stax. It won't necessarily do as well with the way Aurum Cantus handles the low mids and lows though, or a Magnepan with more of the bass modules.
 
Basically...
 
Quote:
 
I am looking at something sub $1K, with potential candidates (all open-back):
 
1 - HiFiMan HE-560
2 - Focal Elear
3 - Audeze LCD-2
4 - Oppo PM-2 (I hear it is the same with PM-1, except for build)
5 - Sennheiser HD 600
 
Any helps is appreciated!...

 
...I'd rather 
accept that headphones are different, but if you're really willing to experiment with different headphones, I'd recommend you try Beyer's T90 for just the treble bumps and see if the issue could partly be high frequency hearing loss or plain preference. Alternately, you can save up and get the LCD-3 or go all the way and get Stax.
 
As for the ones in your list, the Elear might not be that much of an improvement for the specific problem you're trying to tackle, ditto the PM-2. Maybe the HD600 and the newer LCD-2F, but again, you might as well try the LCD-3 or Stax.
 
Feb 6, 2017 at 11:38 PM Post #14 of 27
You'd stand a better chance of getting "crisp" headphones by dunking them in an egg-potato starch batter then frying it at 100C and then at 250C than considering #1 and #3 as something only a "crisp" headphone can have.  Jokes aside, any decent headphone should have those regardless of the treble characteristics (more on this below).


There are numerous factors and problems you're not taking into account here.

First off, the response curves on those headphones aren't exactly emphasizing the treble. The EL-8 AFAIK has an overall smoother curve but with a slighlty rolled off treble. The HE400i has two short peaks above where 1000hz is (and it's ruler flat from there down to 10hz), but it does take a nose dive between 1000hz and the first peak and a slight dip between the two peaks. And again the peaks aren't all that tall.

Second, these are fullrange drivers, and just like with single FR driver speakers, given current technological limitations they're either too far from linear between 20hz to 20000hz, or they can be relatively smooth but take a nose dive earlier at either end. Add to the range width and curve shape other considerations like sensitivity and impedance, and driver design ultimately isn't as easy as it can be, especially vs speakers that can have more than one driver.

Third, while I might hazard a guess that you could have high frequency hearing loss and thus would be better served by a headphone with treble peaks, I'd have to clear up that this isn't a clear path to getting what you want. The peak/s can have the exact opposite effect rather than basically cancel out what you're missing, and worse, often it can impact the imaging. Boosting the treble for example pushes the cymbals forward, like on Grados. AKG's K7-- series has treble peaks as well however the K701, K702, and Q701 mitigate that consequence with angled headphone pads. These mimic the toe in of speakers (ie, put zero toe-in on your speakers and you get a very forward sound with no depth in the image), taking the drivers off-axis relative to your ear canals. I even wear these pushed forward to take the drivers even farther out from my ear canals rather than just have good depth but leave the cymbals crashing loudly just by my temples.

Fourth, and this is related to the previous points, you can't just compare speakers to headphones as it's a totally different acoustic situation. The first point is favored by engineers and consumers in dealing with the second point precisely because of the ones in the third point. Also, that cymbals-forward for outflanking double-pincer crushing envelopment cavalry charge effect on headphones is enhanced precisely because of the differences in how the sound is treated: the drivers are right outside your ears plus left ear can't hear right ear and vice versa (thereby making for less cross-channel spatial cues that position the cymbals toward the center). By contrast, with speakers you deal with reflections (something you can reduce by just moving the speakers and chair farther from the surrounding walls, if not treating the entire room) and toe-in angles to match the dispersion angles. Coupled with specialized drivers with crossovers that counter the higher sensitivity of tweeters, the risk of getting peaks is a lot lower on speakers also barring reflections, while the tweeters remain comparatively flatter farther up the range. And then you have an entire room to work with where reflections or at least a reverb throughout the room helps in what you perceive, kind of like how people have similar issues at the low freqs without taking into account that drivers right by your ears or inside your ear canals aren't exactly going to give the chest-thumping bass of a subwoofer or large towers driven by powerful amps at high volume.

Fifth, that doesn't even take into account what specific speakers you're comparing those specific headphones to. If you were using Aurum Cantus or Magnepans, the only way to match the treble with Stax. It won't necessarily do as well with the way Aurum Cantus handles the low mids and lows though, or a Magnepan with more of the bass modules.

Basically...


...I'd rather accept that headphones are different, but if you're really willing to experiment with different headphones, I'd recommend you try Beyer's T90 for just the treble bumps and see if the issue could partly be high frequency hearing loss or plain preference. Alternately, you can save up and get the LCD-3 or go all the way and get Stax.

As for the ones in your list, the Elear might not be that much of an improvement for the specific problem you're trying to tackle, ditto the PM-2. Maybe the HD600 and the newer LCD-2F, but again, you might as well try the LCD-3 or Stax.


Wow! Quite a read. Deserves a few reads in fact. Great info, as I admittedly do not know too much about headphones. I guess it takes time, and a good amount of experimenting. That comes with hours spent on them, reading good posts like this, and going through a bunch of 'phones.

I don't think I have a hearing problem. It is just a matter of getting used to an admittedly different experience than home audio. Maybe I just have to manage my expectations a bit better. After all, I don't see this as a problem I am trying to tackle. Just in my sub conscience I know I am missing something, although it might be just a (wrong) perception.

And no, I don't have a high end home audio system. ELAC Uni-fi UB5 speakers, SVS SB12 subwoofer, and Rotel integrated with Oppo 203 and Bluesound Node 2 as players. That is for my 2.1 channel system, as I also have a separate HT system, with Axiom speakers, REL sub, 5.1.2 Atmos and Samsung 65" KS8500 4K tv. Yes, I have been tweaking my home audio for many years now, and I know exactly what I like and dislike, while I am just getting started with headphones, mostly by necessity (family and all) rather than desire.

Thanks again!
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 6:02 PM Post #15 of 27
They sure are bright - but don't have what I'd call much in the way of "soundstage". Sure, there's great L/R separation and imaging, but it's more akin to "headstage" - fairly intimate. 
 

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