crinacle's IEM FR measurement database
Jul 28, 2019 at 10:41 AM Post #1,201 of 1,335
“Rai Penta is the culmination of 3 years of researching the most ergonomic shape and most vivid sound for a Universal IEM." @ Meze Audio site

Fidue A91 Sirius released in the last quarter of 2016... Did they just do the shell and merely retuned an existing product?

Here are some of my thoughts:
  • Meze has in-house audio measurement equipment and an acoustic engineer (not Antonio, he is an industrial/product designer) --- Mircea Fanatan, but from Meze's own posts on their social media accounts, I have not seen him touch the new IEM projects, i.e. Penta and Solo.
  • This is Meze's first hybrid IEM. While they've produced IEMs in the past, they have been purely dynamic IEMs and have not been tuned for high-end acoustic quality. It's entirely reasonable for Meze to hire/subcontract an acoustic design firm (similar to what they've done with Rinaro Acoustics) to help them get off the ground with the Penta. This person/company may have ties to Fidue (it could even be the ever-elusive 'Benny Tan', who Fidue acknowledges is someone who 'produces headphones for world-famous brands'), and even own the IP to the circuit/acoustic design behind both the A91 and Penta. So is it entire possible that Meze has no idea the Penta has a nearly-identical FR to the A91? Absolutely. Their subcontractor likely gave them a few acoustic tuning options and let them choose whatever they felt was the preferred signature.
  • Does all this necessarily detract from the Penta as a product? Not necessarily. As mentioned, Meze's strength lies in product design. The Penta gained attention because they showed it off at the same time as the Empyrean --- both models put design and ergonomics at a premium. While the A91 also has incorporated design elements in its shell, it goes for a different, colder, more technocratic look, compared to the sculptural lines of the Penta.
  • There are plenty of companies who have given others credit for their sound tuning (in order to gain sonic credibility). For example, Shinola (a Detroit-based accessories company) tapped Campfire Audio to design its Canfield Pro IEMs. Meze itself openly talks about how isodynamic technology is developed by Rinaro. But something tells me that "Rai Penta, tuned by Mr. Benny Tan" won't move as many units. Racist undertones aside, the difference is this: guys like Antonio Meze are regularly on the show circuit, shaking hands and kissing babies. People have interacted with guys from Meze. When someone types 'Meze' onto these threads, and an image of a Caucasian man seated in front of a Mac Pro within a white room comes up, with him in pensive thought, holding a pencil and sketching out the headband form of the Empyrean. Anyone here actually know what Benny Tan looks like? Has anyone held a PM conversation with him? Pictures of him holding Fidue earphones on the interwebs do exist, but surely no one here is on a first name basis with him. The result is a Fidue A91 that, despite making its rounds around the head-fi reviewer circuit, was mostly met with a lukewarm reception, and an IEM with a near identical tuning can be hyped up two years later $200 price hike and all.
  • In the past, there have been lots of IEM models that have shared identical drivers and near-identical FRs, e.g. the GQ-30783 in the Westone 2, InEar StageDiver SD2, Audio-Technica ATH-CK90PRO/MK2/IM02 (see more here), but because they all looked different and had different fitment (hence a difference to average insertion angle and depth), they sounded different to many peoples' ears. The Fidue A91 Sirius and Meze Rai Penta share more in common than they don't (see here), but there are still enough ergonomic differences such that the Penta will sound a bit different from the Fidue.
  • The main thing is that people know about the high degree of similarity between the Penta and the A91 before they buy, and hopefully get a good head-to-head in-person comparison before making a purchase. Some people might end up liking the accessories package of the A91 over that of the Penta's --- who knows.
 
Jul 28, 2019 at 10:49 AM Post #1,202 of 1,335
Here are some of my thoughts:
  • The main thing is that people know about the high degree of similarity between the Penta and the A91 before they buy, and hopefully get a good head-to-head in-person comparison before making a purchase. Some people might end up liking the accessories package of the A91 over that of the Penta's --- who knows.

A bit like Louis Vuitton hooking M&Ds MW07 and cashifying (new word) it?
 
Jul 28, 2019 at 12:09 PM Post #1,203 of 1,335
  • This person/company may have ties to Fidue (it could even be the ever-elusive 'Benny Tan', who Fidue acknowledges is someone who 'produces headphones for world-famous brands'), and even own the IP to the circuit/acoustic design behind both the A91 and Penta.

  • In the past, there have been lots of IEM models that have shared identical drivers and near-identical FRs, e.g. the GQ-30783 in the Westone 2, InEar StageDiver SD2, Audio-Technica ATH-CK90PRO/MK2/IM02 (see more here), but because they all looked different and had different fitment (hence a difference to average insertion angle and depth), they sounded different to many peoples' ears. The Fidue A91 Sirius and Meze Rai Penta share more in common than they don't (see here), but there are still enough ergonomic differences such that the Penta will sound a bit different from the Fidue.

IIRC Fidue also have similar history to Dunu, in that before designing their own earphones they were OEM designers or manufacturers? Even after extablishing their own brand there were DMM branded A73/A83, identical except in color. As you mention Meze also seem to have improved on the ergonomics a fair bit. Nothing very controversial here IMO (except IEM pricing trends :ghost: ).

BTW, have you ever had more opportunity to listen to SD2? I had forgotten about that CYMBACAVUM article- "IM02, but comfortable" is still something of a dream IEM for me. LS200 were comfortable but departed from IM02 more than I cared for (seeing how A-T have abandoned the "acoustic horn" design element I wonder if it wasn't doing much... curiously someone on the discovery thread recently shared some novelty eartips w/ that concept). Think either the SD2 or Westone are still worth seeking out?
 
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Jul 28, 2019 at 3:42 PM Post #1,204 of 1,335
Here are some of my thoughts:
  • Meze has in-house audio measurement equipment and an acoustic engineer (not Antonio, he is an industrial/product designer) --- Mircea Fanatan, but from Meze's own posts on their social media accounts, I have not seen him touch the new IEM projects, i.e. Penta and Solo.
  • This is Meze's first hybrid IEM. While they've produced IEMs in the past, they have been purely dynamic IEMs and have not been tuned for high-end acoustic quality. It's entirely reasonable for Meze to hire/subcontract an acoustic design firm (similar to what they've done with Rinaro Acoustics) to help them get off the ground with the Penta. This person/company may have ties to Fidue (it could even be the ever-elusive 'Benny Tan', who Fidue acknowledges is someone who 'produces headphones for world-famous brands'), and even own the IP to the circuit/acoustic design behind both the A91 and Penta. So is it entire possible that Meze has no idea the Penta has a nearly-identical FR to the A91? Absolutely. Their subcontractor likely gave them a few acoustic tuning options and let them choose whatever they felt was the preferred signature.
  • Does all this necessarily detract from the Penta as a product? Not necessarily. As mentioned, Meze's strength lies in product design. The Penta gained attention because they showed it off at the same time as the Empyrean --- both models put design and ergonomics at a premium. While the A91 also has incorporated design elements in its shell, it goes for a different, colder, more technocratic look, compared to the sculptural lines of the Penta.
  • There are plenty of companies who have given others credit for their sound tuning (in order to gain sonic credibility). For example, Shinola (a Detroit-based accessories company) tapped Campfire Audio to design its Canfield Pro IEMs. Meze itself openly talks about how isodynamic technology is developed by Rinaro. But something tells me that "Rai Penta, tuned by Mr. Benny Tan" won't move as many units. Racist undertones aside, the difference is this: guys like Antonio Meze are regularly on the show circuit, shaking hands and kissing babies. People have interacted with guys from Meze. When someone types 'Meze' onto these threads, and an image of a Caucasian man seated in front of a Mac Pro within a white room comes up, with him in pensive thought, holding a pencil and sketching out the headband form of the Empyrean. Anyone here actually know what Benny Tan looks like? Has anyone held a PM conversation with him? Pictures of him holding Fidue earphones on the interwebs do exist, but surely no one here is on a first name basis with him. The result is a Fidue A91 that, despite making its rounds around the head-fi reviewer circuit, was mostly met with a lukewarm reception, and an IEM with a near identical tuning can be hyped up two years later $200 price hike and all.
  • In the past, there have been lots of IEM models that have shared identical drivers and near-identical FRs, e.g. the GQ-30783 in the Westone 2, InEar StageDiver SD2, Audio-Technica ATH-CK90PRO/MK2/IM02 (see more here), but because they all looked different and had different fitment (hence a difference to average insertion angle and depth), they sounded different to many peoples' ears. The Fidue A91 Sirius and Meze Rai Penta share more in common than they don't (see here), but there are still enough ergonomic differences such that the Penta will sound a bit different from the Fidue.
  • The main thing is that people know about the high degree of similarity between the Penta and the A91 before they buy, and hopefully get a good head-to-head in-person comparison before making a purchase. Some people might end up liking the accessories package of the A91 over that of the Penta's --- who knows.

This was really very insightful, thank you.
 
Jul 29, 2019 at 12:05 AM Post #1,205 of 1,335
A bit like Louis Vuitton hooking M&Ds MW07 and cashifying (new word) it?

I think Meze have done substantially more work in the development of the Penta than did LV for its MW07. Master & Dynamic are merely co-branding their MW07. IIRC they also have a Kevin Durant edition headphone (without Achilles tendon tissue). If the Penta were merely an A91 with a laser etch of the Meze lyre, then the analogy would be valid.

Meze has made a novel shell that can't be found anywhere else. Although the circuit layout is the same, the driver source, wiring, and other passive components may not necessarily be the same.

IIRC Fidue also have similar history to Dunu, in that before designing their own earphones they were OEM designers or manufacturers? Even after extablishing their own brand there were DMM branded A73/A83, identical except in color. As you mention Meze also seem to have improved on the ergonomics a fair bit. Nothing very controversial here IMO (except IEM pricing trends :ghost: ).

BTW, have you ever had more opportunity to listen to SD2? I had forgotten about that CYMBACAVUM article- "IM02, but comfortable" is still something of a dream IEM for me. LS200 were comfortable but departed from IM02 more than I cared for (seeing how A-T have abandoned the "acoustic horn" design element I wonder if it wasn't doing much... curiously someone on the discovery thread recently shared some novelty eartips w/ that concept). Think either the SD2 or Westone are still worth seeking out?

Yep, some Japanese brand whose name I forget had models that looked identical to the A73 and A83.

Judging from the length and diameter of the acoustic horn used by Audio-Technica, it probably boosted frequencies that were beyond the upper limit of the audible band. I still appreciate it as a feature, though, and wish they kept it.

Although there is more than one company that makes horn shaped eartips, I do have a pair of the E-Pro tips. I can't really hear any benefit, and any potential benefit is negated by the uncomfortable silicone the tips are made from.

I've long appreciated the shape of the SD2/SD2S; they're some of the most comfortable CIEM-derived universals I've used before (didn't KZ or some other questionable "Chi-Fi" company crib the shape?). But they're priced a little high for its performance bracket. A second hand SD2 would be a great deal, though.

This was really very insightful, thank you.

I want to make sure people don't think I'm somehow condemning the Meze for having a near identical FR to the Fidue. Given the added complexities of hybrid IEM development over a turnkey module like the Knowles GQ, I think it's highly unlikely Meze somehow independently reached the target FR of the Penta without any kind of relationship, direct or indirect, with Fidue's people. At worst, they outright reverse engineered the A91, but I think that's highly unlikely as well. The most likely possibility is that Meze acquired the license to the A91 circuit design and made few to no changes. So if Meze somehow claimed they did acoustic research from the ground up and developed the Penta from scratch, then they should be chided for false advertisement. If no such claims have been made (have not gone through any of their statements regarding the Penta), then whatever. This is business as usual in the earphone world.
 
Jul 29, 2019 at 10:43 AM Post #1,206 of 1,335
This was really very insightful, thank you.

Seriously. These types of posts are what headfi needs more of. Thoughtful and helpful. Not bashing or hyping, but giving context to how meze may have come to the final Penta.

tomscy2000, you just got another follower.
 
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Aug 2, 2019 at 11:06 AM Post #1,207 of 1,335
Wow, this sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics and speculation to somehow justify what Meze is doing here.

You cannot achieve near identical frequency responds with 5 driver hybrid design unless you are trying. As for the shell, congrats they designed a metal shell that fits well. Fidue also had a comfortable metal shell. Also the Fidue was released 3 years ago and for $200 less.
Having owned a pair I can say they were a fantastic earphone, but never given enough praise or credit possibly due to being Chinese. Now a European brand reskins the same earphone and its now TOTL. I'd recommend getting a used Fidue if you can find it. They're around $400-500.
 
Aug 2, 2019 at 1:57 PM Post #1,208 of 1,335
I suppose to anyone who believes that measured SPL at various frequencies is the only thing that contributes to an IEM's sound, you make a very appealing suggestion.

For others who understand how phase, crossover tech, impulse response, and damping affect the presentation of sounds at different frequencies, the Penta is still a viable option.
 
Aug 2, 2019 at 2:36 PM Post #1,209 of 1,335
Sure, but even many of these other factors that would contribute to the sound are very similar:

- Crossover - This would have to be similar if not identical to achieve that similar FR with the same driver configuration and resulting in the exact same specifications
- Housing - Both have metal casing to reduce reflections for the DD
- Venting - As noted previously, venting locations are identical
- Bores - Both have metal triple sound tubes/bores with the DD bore being larger than the rest

Looking at the graph there is obviously minute variation such as in the bass response, likely due to damping or other factors etc. Obviously great marketing, websites, photos, description of the "technology" goes a long way in this game. But saying this is a wholly unique IEM is a bit much.
 
Aug 2, 2019 at 3:07 PM Post #1,210 of 1,335
Valid points. I'm curious if a full suite of measurements can point to some material difference between the two.

If not, this consumer just played into the tech claims and his wallet just took a needless thumpin
 
Aug 5, 2019 at 2:32 PM Post #1,213 of 1,335
Aug 5, 2019 at 3:12 PM Post #1,215 of 1,335
Is there any chance of getting Audio Technica ATH-CKR100iS and ATH-CK2000Ti measured?
 

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