crinacle's IEM FR measurement database
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SilverEars

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^That seems intuitive to what is felt with dynamics being more capable of subbass with the slower decay(like a woofer effect). With the Andromeda, the bass is pretty tight, but it extends as far as well.
 
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goodvibes

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'Better' is also relative. I suspect if you closed the vent hole on the driver itself, a DD would have very little decay which is actually considered a lack of control when reading a waterfall plot. Anything that extends forward from the back wall is not part of the original signal.
 
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post-13670676
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Francisk

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^That seems intuitive to what is felt with dynamics being more capable of subbass with the slower decay(like a woofer effect). With the Andromeda, the bass is pretty tight, but it extends as far as well.
I was at E-Earphone Akihabara in Tokyo last year to test the Andromeda and stumbled upon the rare gem, Dynamic Motion DM200H and after extensively testing Andromeda, Dynamic Motion DM200H and several other TOTL IEMs I decided to purchase the DM200H because of it's very detailed coherent sound throughout the frequency range and especially the dynamic attack of percussive instruments that literally equal and at times even shame the TOTL IEMs. On the lower end spectrum, I just love the extension with a good decay from it's patented coaxial single DD + single BA. The DD driver on the DM200H did it's magic with the Bass frequencies yet maintaining tightness which gives me more enjoyment than some of the TOTL IEMs.

Please don't get me wrong, the DM200H is not a true and true neutral IEM but it's very well tuned and very well balanced and so enjoyable that it's been my go to IEM everyday since last year.
 
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Cya|\|

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I was at E-Earphone Akihabara in Tokyo last year to test the Andromeda and stumbled upon the rare gem, Dynamic Motion DM200H and after extensively testing Andromeda, Dynamic Motion DM200H and several other TOTL IEMs I decided to purchase the DM200H because of it's very detailed coherent sound throughout the frequency range and especially the dynamic attack of percussive instruments that literally equal and at times even shame the TOTL IEMs. On the lower end spectrum, I just love the extension with a good decay from it's patented coaxial single DD + single BA. The DD driver on the DM200H did it's magic with the Bass frequencies yet maintaining tightness which gives me more enjoyment than some of the TOTL IEMs.

Please don't get me wrong, the DM200H is not.a.true and true neutral IEM but it's very well tuned and very well balanced and so enjoyable that it's been my go to IEM everyday since last year.
Doesn't seem too neutral to me: https://clarityfidelity.blogspot.it/2016/09/dynamic-motion-dm200h-iem.html
 
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Francisk

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I did not claim that the DM200H is a neutral IEM, please read my previous post carefully. Btw, I do not base my judgement on reviews, I base it on my own ears after all I'll be the one using it. Just in case you didn't realize it, I posted a few questions to the reviewer that reviewed the DM200H which of course did not answer all my questions. If you want to know why I'm enjoying the DM200H so much, go test it out yourself.
 
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post-13671056
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DanWiggins

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If anyone can answer these questions, it probably be @DanWiggins. He has experience with csd graph of iems.

@DanWiggins, if you are free, can you explain some of the questions above?
I'll answer later today or tomorrow, after I return from the SF headphone meet...:)
 
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datranz

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What we hear is the integral of all the sound pressure. I GUESS we could hear the summation of all the propaganda delays, approximately 6db down.
 
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crinacle

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Okay so it's come to my attention that one of my posts got taken down without warning, I assume due to the website in which the post's images were hosted on. Just going to rehost them and hope none of the mods are triggered this time. (NOTE: these are MY measurements not anyone else's, so obviously I have the right to rehost them wherever.)

http://imgur.com/a/dREGO

As you can see, the DD/hybrids have a longer linger in the selected time domain, ending at -8ish dB as opposed to the typical BA's -16ish dB (all measurements done with the same settings). While the results are definitely not conclusive due to the sample size, it's at least a good starting point to suggest that the perception of bass emphasis can be due to a decay element as well, instead of the traditional measures of SPL.
 
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james444

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As you can see, the DD/hybrids have a longer linger in the selected time domain, ending at -8ish dB as opposed to the typical BA's -16ish dB (all measurements done with the same settings). While the results are definitely not conclusive due to the sample size, it's at least a good starting point to suggest that the perception of bass emphasis can be due to a decay element as well, instead of the traditional measures of SPL.
Thanks for your measurements. Pretty much all other CSDs I've seen show similar differences between BAs and DDs. Considering that attack / decay is related to mass (of the diaphragm), the differences are not surprising imo.

However, studies on auditory masking show that our brain has a temporal resolution of about 200ms, which is many times longer than the duration of CSDs. So, the crux is actually the question whether our auditory system is able to perceive the differences within that very short decay timeframe... and that's another matter altogether.


(source: link)

Here's hoping that DanWiggins can shed some light on this...
 
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goodvibes

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Steady state or single aspect tests always worry me when speaking of complex systems. Obviously they are useful and often needed but I doubt we get a complete picture of the effects as they may interrelate to other aspects of the sound. I tend to think measurements used for buying purposes are more exclusionary than affirmative. Once they are close enough, your ear is more adept at collating all aspects, IMO.
 
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terminexia

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Hey yo! Just wanna ask, how different does the A3H-V2 pro sounds between the universal and custom?
I've been eyeing it for a while now but my friends are kinda warning me that the sound will be very different. Is that true?
 
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DanWiggins

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Thanks for your measurements. Pretty much all other CSDs I've seen show similar differences between BAs and DDs. Considering that attack / decay is related to mass (of the diaphragm), the differences are not surprising imo.

However, studies on auditory masking show that our brain has a temporal resolution of about 200ms, which is many times longer than the duration of CSDs. So, the crux is actually the question whether our auditory system is able to perceive the differences within that very short decay timeframe... and that's another matter altogether.


(source: link)

Here's hoping that DanWiggins can shed some light on this...
Hi all,

Been busy! China three weeks ago, then a week in Indonesia, then a week in the Midwest, then SF (twice!), finally getting back on this...:)

ITDs and ILDs change with frequency AND total SPL. Just like sensitivity to THD - it's frequency, spectrum, and amplitude that will tend to indicate if THD can be heard, and if so whether or not it is objectionable. ITDs as low as 100 microseconds can be important in the midrange, growing to hundreds of milliseconds in the bass ranges. It's not a linear relationship either.

But we're talking about CSDs, and that's not necessarily what an ITD/ILD would inform (ITDs and ILDs tend to be for localization). There has been a tremendous amount of research into timbre, tonality and resonances. One of the better papers was by Floyd Toole and Sean Olive, back in the late 80s I think. It had some really good guidelines and research about how resonances, even 20+ dB down, can affect the perceived timbre of an instrument, making a viola in the upper registers sound like a violin in the lower registers, for example. Gabrielsson and Tolve followed up in the mid 1990s with more research.

Essentially, what makes a viola sound like a viola, what makes a tenor sax sound like a tenor sax isn't just the musical scale range of the instrument, but the complex resonance structure the instrument creates. Thus it is more than just its frequency response (range of notes); it is the decay of how those notes go away that builds the individual character of the instrument. And just like a transducer with a hot bass (or lean bass!) frequency response will skew what you hear, hanging on for multiple milliseconds - when the signals of interest last less than a fraction of a millisecond - will audibly color what you hear.

Actual sensitivity to CSD resonances is complex, as it relies upon not just the length of the resonance, but the amplitude of such resonance and the details of other resonances around it. Single, or relatively sparse resonances tend to be more audibly benign. As the total number of resonances increases, then all tend to become more audible. It's almost like a "total amount of excess signal after the event" matters, and I've been noodling on ways to model that, but so far it's a pretty complex solution. Suffice to say, one or two resonances that hang on no more than 2-3 periods tends to be OK (provided they are at least 18 dB down from passband); more resonances, or longer duration, or higher amplitude begins to add an audible coloration.

And this doesn't even touch on the area about masking, where details can be hidden by such resonances, especially if the resonances are high in amplitude and duration...

Someone much more educated and driven than I needs to research this more, but I can safely report that such research is on-going!
 
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crinacle

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Hey yo! Just wanna ask, how different does the A3H-V2 pro sounds between the universal and custom?
I've been eyeing it for a while now but my friends are kinda warning me that the sound will be very different. Is that true?
Based on my experience with the demo units in Jaben Singapore and Jaben Melbourne... yes. The demo units and the unit I received sound very very different.

I'm just about wrapped up with my review writeup of the A3Hv2 but I'm very hesitant to release it since there is so much variation going on with this particular model. I hope @DrGraceW can clear things up as I don't want to mislead anyone if what I received is essentially a "unicorn".
 
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castleofargh

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Hi all,

Been busy! China three weeks ago, then a week in Indonesia, then a week in the Midwest, then SF (twice!), finally getting back on this...:)

ITDs and ILDs change with frequency AND total SPL. Just like sensitivity to THD - it's frequency, spectrum, and amplitude that will tend to indicate if THD can be heard, and if so whether or not it is objectionable. ITDs as low as 100 microseconds can be important in the midrange, growing to hundreds of milliseconds in the bass ranges. It's not a linear relationship either.

But we're talking about CSDs, and that's not necessarily what an ITD/ILD would inform (ITDs and ILDs tend to be for localization). There has been a tremendous amount of research into timbre, tonality and resonances. One of the better papers was by Floyd Toole and Sean Olive, back in the late 80s I think. It had some really good guidelines and research about how resonances, even 20+ dB down, can affect the perceived timbre of an instrument, making a viola in the upper registers sound like a violin in the lower registers, for example. Gabrielsson and Tolve followed up in the mid 1990s with more research.

Essentially, what makes a viola sound like a viola, what makes a tenor sax sound like a tenor sax isn't just the musical scale range of the instrument, but the complex resonance structure the instrument creates. Thus it is more than just its frequency response (range of notes); it is the decay of how those notes go away that builds the individual character of the instrument. And just like a transducer with a hot bass (or lean bass!) frequency response will skew what you hear, hanging on for multiple milliseconds - when the signals of interest last less than a fraction of a millisecond - will audibly color what you hear.

Actual sensitivity to CSD resonances is complex, as it relies upon not just the length of the resonance, but the amplitude of such resonance and the details of other resonances around it. Single, or relatively sparse resonances tend to be more audibly benign. As the total number of resonances increases, then all tend to become more audible. It's almost like a "total amount of excess signal after the event" matters, and I've been noodling on ways to model that, but so far it's a pretty complex solution. Suffice to say, one or two resonances that hang on no more than 2-3 periods tends to be OK (provided they are at least 18 dB down from passband); more resonances, or longer duration, or higher amplitude begins to add an audible coloration.

And this doesn't even touch on the area about masking, where details can be hidden by such resonances, especially if the resonances are high in amplitude and duration...

Someone much more educated and driven than I needs to research this more, but I can safely report that such research is on-going!
of course it's hard to test for more than one specific situation at a time when so many variables can all have some impact, and that impact from one variable can also be altered by changes in the other variables. it's kind of a mess.
my concern with CSD is that it might convey an idea of long lasting decay over all sounds just because it shows that. but real music obviously isn't only made of full scale tone that cuts off instantly. with music the driver keeps being constrained by electrical forces for the signal, so the actual result might be more like extra distortion than actual long lasting decay(I saying the same thing but it's the way to imagine it that changes). and specifically in the low end, it's not like bass drums or guitar bass have impulse like behaviors anyway. so while CSD or impulse response can be super informative objectively, I fear how they might bias me into false ideas about what I'm supposed to hear.
 
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