[goodvibes]

Guess you have the appropriate data where tests were done in a controlled manner (proper ABX) and compared with measurements? I’nm yet to see an instance myself. I agree cables can make a change if the impedance changes enough to affect frequency response, but otherwise they sound the same to me when volume matched properly. Funnily enough they measure the same as well (frequency).

And if you look at most comments re cable changes (generally always subjective and never volume matched comparisons), most reference changes to bass or treble. Those would certainly show up in a frequency chart!

I’d love to have some hard data which shows otherwise - but unfortunately all the “evidence” seems to be anecdotal .......

That's for sound science. This is a friendly discussion and I made it clear it was for those that hear it and not for those that don't. I scratch my head that it's still debatable but don't ever assume that someone here hasn't experienced what they report they have experienced. If you don't fine. If you do, fine. I have some experience and know that you can't measure or collate everything that you can hear. Issue is where that line is and it may be different in different circumstances. I'm now done as this never goes anywhere good.

 

[csglinux]

On the subject of subtle things we can (barely) measure, think we shouldn't be able to hear, but apparently can:



Check it out from 6 minutes in. Interested to know what you folks make of this.

 

[SilverEars]

I know basic ACDC. Impedance, resistance, capacitance, inductance. Restance is a DC value. You can call it impedance you know, it's just missing the complex part.

 

[goodvibes]

Reactance. Most IEM cables shouldn't have much but...

 

[crinacle]

Reactance. Most IEM cables shouldn't have much but...

It's still somewhat significant especially if you got dealt a bad hand with the stock cable. According to an engineer elsewhere, the Shure stock cable and some Forza cable are about 0.2 ohms, a FiiO cable about 0.4 ohms, an Ortofon cable about 0.5 ohms and, and this is the important bit, the Noble cable at 2.0 ohms.

 

[goodvibes]

Yup but I was thinking in terms of what would be 'measurable' in band. Things can change when you are dealing with complex signal vs a steady state test once some inductance or capacitance is introduced but in terms of frequency response, I doubt there's much there unless it's a very low impedance transducer. The accepted (I don't) 1 db of change on a high impedance device would take a lot more technical change. I'm at a loss to argue this because I know the technicalities but won't allow that to bias what I hear. I find measurements a great tool but not a convincing proof outside the target function domain. Easy to hear what you can see but sometimes also difficult to see what your ear can perceive. When I had my JH13FPs, that are not low impedance. I listened to about 10 low resistance cables at home and they all sounded different. I only prefered 2 to stock and thought other's character actually worse overall, even if better in some way. The stock plastics one cable had the most resistance, one that I liked second highest. The one I liked most measured the same as some others but was likely the lowest if taken to another decimal point since it had the highest gauge of pure silver. The TWAG V3 which I no longer have.

I now have a PP8 and tried a few things on it. I did not think an Eros II was a good match even though I expected it to be. I may try a Thor II and/or the TWAG V3 again. I currently have a $10 KZ New High Purity Copper Silver Plated cable on it that I prefer a bit to the stock plastics1 or the Eros II on this particular IEM. Not what I'd expected. Adds a touch of weight to the mids and a hair less etched top. Pins are a tad small but it stays in place due to the recessed sockets holding the pin jacket. Looks to be a similar cable to what some custom IEM makers use... that don't use the plastics1. The cable interface thing is like throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. Kinda frustrating if you don't have a lot of access actually. I'd prefer to have nonbeliever bias as opposed to my own.

 

[castleofargh]

Check out the REW manual, starting on page 6:

http://www.roomeqwizard.com/rewv5_help.pdf

as the impulse possesses more data than a FR, I get his point. in REW, we get enough data to make an impulse, which incidentally means we also have enough to make a FR.

Just to throw a monkey wrench into this. Cables sound different and don't necessarily measure so. I know there's debate but let's say if you one hears it that way. Same with tips that do measure the same. One that don't offer significant restriction or absorption.

To the fellow that said his customs don't sound like his audition. Spinfits have a sound as do many tips. When auditioning samples for customs, you need to use a tip that basically stops at the tip of the nozzle to get a decent take. You won't normally see this at shops since it's more trouble but at shows etc, most custom makers use shallow (and not as porous as comply) disposable foams to try and achieve that. Other than one high frequency resonance point possibly shifting due to eardrum proximity, a universal should be representative is auditioned correctly. If you custom sounds a bit leaner and u shaped, you know the inverse of your spinfit which is awesome on some universals like the PP8.

you're the one who started it by writing such nonsense(bold). if you don't mean it, don't write it. if you mean it, you're wrong. I can't think of a third option that wouldn't be placebo.

 

[goodvibes]

Out of context without the next sentence added to the bolded. Thanks for that, Meanie.

Why do you even allow cable impressions and reviews here? I guess I can't relay my observations in an impressions forum. I won't bother you guys at headfi for bit. Cheers.

 

[crinacle]

I think there needs to be a distinction made: just because it's currently not measurable, doesn't mean that it's absolutely not measurable.

Maybe in the future, some new metric for what we deem as "subjective" now like soundstage can be developed, and all these improvements to staging that I'm hearing about with cable rolling can be objectively proven. Or perhaps improvements to measurements in transient response can show something. Or maybe both would happen and still show nothing substantial for the pro-cable argument. Who knows...

At any case, it all circles back to the burden of proof. Not the non-believer's burden to show that cables don't matter but rather the believer's burden to show that it does.

 

[SilverEars]

Yup but I was thinking in terms of what would be 'measurable' in band. Things can change when you are dealing with complex signal vs a steady state test once some inductance or capacitance is introduced but in terms of frequency response, I doubt there's much there unless it's a very low impedance transducer.

when you look at a flat line graph for cable measurements, it's resistive. There's really nothing beyond LRC parameters to change the sound through a cable within audible frequencies, and L and C can be thrown out.

 

[cskippy]

The issue with differing resistances in cables is that most IEMs impedance curves aren't linear so they have a reactive change to different resistance or impedance of a device or in this case, a cable.

 

[SilverEars]

The issue with differing resistances in cables is that most IEMs impedance curves aren't linear so they have a reactive change to different resistance or impedance of a device or in this case, a cable.

Yes, but it's about relative level of that resistance that effects the output of the headphone, and this is in relation to impedance response of the headphone.
Planars should not be effected as it's a resistive load. Same goes for dynamic driver iems out there that are nearly flat, but for BA impedance responses that are nonlinear with impedance level that dips closer to cable impedance, depending on the relative impedance in comparison.

Some BA iems have very low impedance dips, and those should have audible difference depending on cable impedance due to relative differences that are significant enough. Bartsky's measurements illustrates this with Andromeda which can dip low in impedance response.



Look below on the Adro's impedance response. The maxima is quite high, but the minima at around 3ohm is very very low. So, bass get's effected, but the treble not really, mids somewhat.



From Headflux:

"Likewise, the Inear responds to the output impedance of the source device. The above figure shows how the Andromeda reacts to different output impedances. The upper yellow line shows the Inear at a 0 Ohm output, which accordingly does not cause unwanted deviations of the frequency response. Below are outputs with 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 and 64 Ohm. So it can be seen that the Andromeda sounds with increasing output impedance of the player, amplifier etc. increasingly brighter. Our recommendation is a playback device with an output impedance of max. 0.5 Ohm - higher values cause changes in the frequency response of more than 1 dB, which can significantly alter the sound of the Inears."

Now if you look at HD800's impedance response, you see that it's quite significant compared to 3ohm low dip on the Andromeda as the lowest is quite high at 350ohms. It's going to take much greater impedance to effect the HD800. So, the point is, it's the relative impedance levels of the headphone compared to cable impedance.

 

[cocolinho]

From Headflux:

"Likewise, the Inear responds to the output impedance of the source device. The above figure shows how the Andromeda reacts to different output impedances. The upper yellow line shows the Inear at a 0 Ohm output, which accordingly does not cause unwanted deviations of the frequency response. Below are outputs with 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 and 64 Ohm. So it can be seen that the Andromeda sounds with increasing output impedance of the player, amplifier etc. increasingly brighter. Our recommendation is a playback device with an output impedance of max. 0.5 Ohm - higher values cause changes in the frequency response of more than 1 dB, which can significantly alter the sound of the Inears."

what is the correlation between BA IEMs impedance response.& output impedance of the source device? I mean can we predict which part of the sound will be impacted and how?
Taking Andro as an example, it gets brighter with the increase output impedance of the player, no doubt.
I did the test with my ATH-IM04 which is rated at 14ohms according to Audio Technica but the curve is not linear, in bass impedance is close to 100ohms then it decreases to 20ohms at 500Hz. Out of my player with 100ohms output impedance IM04 sound muddy with a lot of extra bass. Is that behaviour predictable?
Thanks

 

[castleofargh]

Out of context without the next sentence added to the bolded. Thanks for that, Meanie.

Why do you even allow cable impressions and reviews here? I guess I can't relay my observations in an impressions forum. I won't bother you guys for bit. Cheers.

well that sentence was massively confusing and suggesting something very wrong.
now impressions are impressions. I don't reject them, but I also don't put much confidence in them. there is nothing wrong with sharing as many as we can, so long as nobody pretends that his impressions are the new laws of physics. sadly it happens a lot.
a resistance measurement is also just that. and a cable isn't just its resistance, obviously. if like me you don't have a measurement rig good enough to strictly and rigorously measure a cable(because for starters I need other cables or adapters just to go plug the cable into my rig), it's still super easy to just measure the output of the IEM with different cables. and of course audible differences if they exist, will be measurable. if we have no clue at all, we can start by making a null of recordings using the 2 cables. if that showed no difference but there is an audible one(provable under blind test), it would be bamboozling to say the least. I'd go and fool Pen&Teller with that new trick.
you imagine an electrical change of high enough magnitude to create an audible difference in the IEM, yet not measurable as an electrical variation. magical.

 

[SilverEars]

what is the correlation between BA IEMs impedance response.& output impedance of the source device? I mean can we predict which part of the sound will be impacted and how?
Taking Andro as an example, it gets brighter with the increase output impedance of the player, no doubt.
I did the test with my ATH-IM04 which is rated at 14ohms according to Audio Technica but the curve is not linear, in bass impedance is close to 100ohms then it decreases to 20ohms at 500Hz. Out of my player with 100ohms output impedance IM04 sound muddy with a lot of extra bass. Is that behaviour predictable?
Thanks

Below is the impedance response I found. 100ohms output is significant relative to the impedance of the bass. It should increase distortion. Predictable according to Benchmark.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0321/7609/files/Headphone_Amplifier_Performance_-_Part_2.pdf?1361