[Migou67]

The RMAA test for both :
 
Sony A845 http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons/Sony%20A845%20-%20Headphone-Out.htm
 
Cowon J3 http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons/Cowon%20J3%20-%208%20Ohm%20ClarityOne%20vs%2016%20Ohm%20V-Moda%20Vibe.htm
 
Stereo crosstalk :
 
Cowon J3

 
Sony A845

 
[size=x-small]The higher one is better, you can compare the 16 Ohm Load.[/size]

 

[doublea71]

Quote:

The RMAA test for both :
 
Sony A845 http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons/Sony%20A845%20-%20Headphone-Out.htm
 
Cowon J3 http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Comparisons/Cowon%20J3%20-%208%20Ohm%20ClarityOne%20vs%2016%20Ohm%20V-Moda%20Vibe.htm
 
Stereo crosstalk :
 
Cowon J3

 
Sony A845

 
[size=x-small]The higher one is better, you can compare the 16 Ohm Load.[/size]

Can you explain these line graphs in layman's term?

 

[Migou67]

From Wiki :
 
In electronics, crosstalk (XT) is any phenomenon by which a signal transmitted on one circuit or channel of a transmission system creates an undesired effect in another circuit or channel. Crosstalk is usually caused by undesired capacitive, inductive, or conductive coupling from one circuit, part of a circuit, or channel, to another.
 
Most crosstalk results from printed circuit board traces "talking" to each other. The mechanism is capacitive coupling between the closely spaced traces and layers.
 
A ratio is formed by dividing the unwanted signal by the above-noted output test value, and the answer expressed in dB. Since the ratio is always less than one (crosstalk is always less than the original signal) the expression results in negative dB ratings. For example, a crosstalk spec of -60 dB is interpreted to mean the unwanted signal is 60 dB below the test signal.

 

[doublea71]

So the higher the negative decibel rating of the crosstalk, the harder it is to hear against the original signal? If I'm right, then the Sony has less of a crosstalk problem than the Cowon (I think).
 

 

[Coq de Combat]

Quote:

So the higher the negative decibel rating of the crosstalk, the harder it is to hear against the original signal? If I'm right, then the Sony has less of a crosstalk problem than the Cowon (I think).
 

The Sony looks to me like it's pretty steady at around -42 dB while the Cowon peaks at -42 dB and goes lower (almost to -60 dB). 

 

[dfkt]

Don't forget that the Sony A series can't drive multi-armature IEMs properly, due to way too high output impedance. You can see the horrible frequency response linked by Migou67 in my tests above. It's a clearly audible deviation from how it should sound like.

 

[Typhoon859]

Quote:

To my ears the J3 has a warm not analytical sound with all EQ's turned off.

Quote:

me too

Quote:

 
We'll see - this is where things get completely subjective. Who's to say these tonal flaws you speak of aren't in the recordings themselves? Perhaps it's not a flaw at all, but rather a sound signature that you do not prefer. Neutral headphones tend to reveal the quality of the mastering of a recording, at least that's been my experience. I'm pretty sure a good set of customs will smoke the M2s, but my mileage may vary as they say.

Just because people say contradicting things, doesn't make it opinion.  It's pretty much a well known fact that the J3's sound, ESPECIALLY flat, has a very dead kind of a sound to it.  That's the reason for most people leaving it. 
 
Look, either you have warmer sounding phones or you're being influenced by the genre of music you listen to which may tend to have a certain sound; I don't really know.  Point is, especially if you compare it to other players, not even on its own, it has a COLDER sound to it.  Even if I wanted to, I can't imagine up a headache.  That happens directly as a result of a problem such as this.  THAT you may not get, but again, that's irrelevant as that could be for many reasons.
 
 
Quote:

 
Which is a total opposite of me. Flat sounding (as in no BBE-effects or EQ) is the setting that would keep me off this DAP. The EQ and BBE effects are really what makes this player stand out in terms of audio quality. So, if it wasn't for those things, I would buy another DAP. Plus, the battery life is really very good for a DAP. Every other week, my battery meter goes down to 75%, and that's when I recharge it.
 
That said, I only use it when commuting to and from university. At home I use my computer as source.

 
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There is nothing wrong with using EQ's if that's your preference for your enjoyment of the music. I personally leave the sound to the recording engineers and I don't want to digitally manipulate it.

Well, this player does require at least a little bit of manipulation.  Completely flat it sounds pretty much worse than anything else. 
 
I agree that "the sound should be left to the sound engineers" as each record will sound different.  What you're doing the EQ for is the headphones, not the songs.  You just use whatever songs as reference. 
 
 
PS- So I discovered the problem I was talking about earlier with the channels bleeding into each other was in fact a software problem.  When I did the test, I did it using my 4 User presets knowing that it's what I'd ever be using anyway and I also thought that at least one of them had Stereo Enhance "off".  On the one I thought was off, it was actually set to "1".  Even that significantly screwed up the stereo soundstage.  Also, from my experience on IEM's, not paying too much attention to "proper soundstage", I felt as though it actually spread the sound outwards,  so if anything I thought the effect was to push the sound a little further apart, as in, it would actually take from the side with less and pan it more to the left/right.  It does the opposite.  The 3D sound option also screws this up.  It should be called Stereo Degrade instead...  On high quality headphones, it's very noticeably worse.  I have no clue why it's even there.  Thinking about it, why would you wanna even change something like that?  Makes sense for cheaper headphones I guess if it actually worked the way I imagined...

 

[Angelopsaro]

Quote:

 
 
PS- So I discovered the problem I was talking about earlier with the channels bleeding into each other was in fact a software problem.  When I did the test, I did it using my 4 User presets knowing that it's what I'd ever be using anyway and I also thought that at least one of them had Stereo Enhance "off".  On the one I thought was off, it was actually set to "1".  Even that significantly screwed up the stereo soundstage.  Also, from my experience on IEM's, not paying too much attention to "proper soundstage", I felt as though it actually spread the sound outwards,  so if anything I thought the effect was to push the sound a little further apart, as in, it would actually take from the side with less and pan it more to the left/right.  It does the opposite.  The 3D sound option also screws this up.  It should be called Stereo Degrade instead...  On high quality headphones, it's very noticeably worse.  I have no clue why it's even there.  Thinking about it, why would you wanna even change something like that?  Makes sense for cheaper headphones I guess if it actually worked the way I imagined...

 
Check the song mr. Brightside by the Killers. And use the normal preset and the vivas. The channels are mixed. Is this what you are reffering?

 

[Typhoon859]

Quote:

 
Check the song mr. Brightside by the Killers. And use the normal preset and the vivas. The channels are mixed. Is this what you are reffering?

A few pages back on the thread is where we were talking about this.  That's what I was talking about here.

 

[bmiamihk]

I would also include what kind of earphone you using. You can have a so called great player but it will never sound great with a stock (free) earbud nor will it sound that great with a cheapy earphone that looks nice.

 

[doublea71]

There definitely seems to be something to that crosstalk phenomena. I hope it isn't a problem for me when mine arrives - I don't want to feel disappointed right away...that being said, everyone will have different impressions of players and phones due to personal preferences. I have an ipod 5.5 right now and it sounds really good with flac and my GR07s...I think a J3 and customs will sound substantially better, so I'm not too worried.

 

[lostid]

Each individual has own preference for sound like different taste for food. Get the comb (dap and phones) you like and be done with it. I love the ipod video so much ended up having two with both upgraded to 120GB's. Can't be anymore happier about the sound, portability and all the benefits brought by the rockbox. I am looking to get one more ipod video 240GB to back up my music.

 
My J3 has been collecting dust since I bought it.

 

[doublea71]

Quote:

Each individual has own preference for sound like different taste for food. Get the comb (dap and phones) you like and be done with it. I love the ipod video so much ended up having two with both upgraded to 120GB's. Can't be anymore happier about the sound, portability and all the benefits brought by the rockbox. I am looking to get one more ipod video 240GB to back up my music.

 
My J3 has been collecting dust since I bought it.

I see the benefit of having so much space vs. more battery life, so I can't knock anybody who uses an ipod at all. If I had to use an apple product, I'd just buy and amp and I'm sure I'd be plenty happy with it. With the same set of headphones, the difference btw an apple and j3 isn't going to be night and day, unless you're adding an amp to one and not the other.

 

[kyuuketsuki]

Quote:

I see the benefit of having so much space vs. more battery life, so I can't knock anybody who uses an ipod at all. If I had to use an apple product, I'd just buy and amp and I'm sure I'd be plenty happy with it. With the same set of headphones, the difference btw an apple and j3 isn't going to be night and day, unless you're adding an amp to one and not the other.

 
See I have a 5.5g iPod, and the reason I switched, well two reasons is that 1) The HO broke and it was out of warranty. As easy as it would be for me to get the part and fix it myself I didn't want to do it. 2) Battery life started being horrible after about a year. 
 
Now I could get an amp and do a DIYMod on it and it will be fine, but that will make it less portable. And I *know* I will enjoy the sound better with the right amp and headphone combo because I tested my friends DIYMod + Amp set up with her HD25 IIs and it was amazing. It was a bit better than my current set up while EQed, being totally flat. Now I know that if I searched around and had the money to drop, I could get something that would please me even more. But I just don't see the point. I do critical listening at home, my portable is my portable. I don't need it to sound perfect, just above average and have a good battery life. The J3 does this easily. 

 

[lostid]

Quote:

I see the benefit of having so much space vs. more battery life, so I can't knock anybody who uses an ipod at all. If I had to use an apple product, I'd just buy and amp and I'm sure I'd be plenty happy with it. With the same set of headphones, the difference btw an apple and j3 isn't going to be night and day, unless you're adding an amp to one and not the other.

I know the ipod battery does not last as long as the J3's. But I have two ipods and each battery can last 12 hrs. So 24 hrs are a lot for my daily listening. As for amp, no thanks as I want to put the dap in my pocket at any given moment.
 
Another reason I decided to have a pair of 120GB's instead of one 240GB's (cost wise about the same), in addition to 24 hrs battery instead of 12 hrs, is to avoid the scenario when one fails I suddenly have no access to ipod video music.

  By having two ipods the life of the dap is also extended as you don't have to just keep playing one. I like the idea to have spare ipods to back up my music as they are really portable music hard drives with RB. These HDD's are inexpensive anyway.
 
Quote:

 
 my portable is my portable. I don't need it to sound perfect, just above average and have a good battery life.

 
I totally agree on this. Yeah the sound can be further improved, but but .... I am not an audiophile and don't want to get too serious about the portable gears. Once the music starts playing, I just enjoy the music itself and forget about the sound thingy.