HardHeadCase
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I want to get a Cowan D2 or maybe a Cowan IAudio 7 and will be using it with my K701s. Should I use a portable amp or not? Please let me know if you think I need an amp.
Cowan D2 + K701 Portable Amp or No Amp?
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epaludo
Headphoneus Supremus
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Yep, definitely. The K701 needs a lot of juice to be properly driven. An amp is indeed necessary to obtain optimum performance ...
kpeezy
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Is this for portable listening? You're cool with open phones for that?
Edit: Apparently, you think you need a portable amp since you voted that way in your pole........
Edit: Apparently, you think you need a portable amp since you voted that way in your pole........
Chickenman
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whats a cowAn?
HardHeadCase
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Some people on this website are telling me I am wrong about needing an amp for the 701s and so I decided to start a poll.
spacemanspliff
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Not much of a ? really. They are 701s so they will improve with an amp. Just get a mini3 for $100 or so and call it a day.
bubbagump
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My D2 can't really drive my k501s. The only chance you have to driving them enough is with a little love from the equalizer.
Gurra1980
1000+ Head-Fier
Quote:
No one is saying you are wrong, maybe everything is not just black or white. Just different opinions like everything else on this place or in life.
| Originally Posted by HardHeadCase /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some people on this website are telling me I am wrong about needing an amp for the 701s and so I decided to start a poll. |
No one is saying you are wrong, maybe everything is not just black or white. Just different opinions like everything else on this place or in life.
majkel
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Quote:
So let's see if overall impression is dark grey, light grey or just grey.
| Originally Posted by Gurra1980 /img/forum/go_quote.gif No one is saying you are wrong, maybe everything is not just black or white. Just different opinions like everything else on this place or in life. |
So let's see if overall impression is dark grey, light grey or just grey.
HardHeadCase
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I just thought a bunch of opinions would be more useful than a few people arguing back and fourth.
JaZZ
Headphoneus Supremus
You may also want to have a look at the thread in the headphones forum.
I'm the one who has actually heard a comparable combination (with iAudio 7 instead of D2) -- and right now am listening to it again. I wholeheartedly repeat my recommendation to at least try it without an amp. The sound quality is not too far away from the Corda Opera -- its DAC fed by the same MP3s (LAME -V3) from my computer -- to be really enjoyable, the more so if you take size and price into consideration.
Has anybody of the people recommending an amp for the D2 considered the fact that the D2 doesn't have a line out? So the only output you can connect the amp to is the headphone out -- more precisely: the built-in headphone amp. What are you expecting from amplifying a signal which you apparently rate as inferior, according to your sound-quality standards? Can further amplification make it any more «accurate»? In turn opinions criticizing lacking gain or power reserves in view of the achievable volume level, resp. -- which would be my only objection (possibly even invalid due to the D2's higher output power compared to my own reference, the i7) -- are in a dinishing minority.
I've just tried the following combination (for the first time, BTW): iAudio7 --> Corda Opera --> K 701. I'm puzzled about the result. Actually I didn't know what to expect. But I certainly didn't expect the i7 --> K 701 combo to downright outclass the i7 --> Opera --> K 701 combo. Yes, that's the clear verdict of my test. The amp, connected to the headphone out, offers not one single advantage compared to the direct connection, the K 701 on the i7's headphone out sounds clearer, fuller, rounder and cleaner.
-- Post edited. Reason: possibly inadequate supposition. (Sorry for that!) --
.
I'm the one who has actually heard a comparable combination (with iAudio 7 instead of D2) -- and right now am listening to it again. I wholeheartedly repeat my recommendation to at least try it without an amp. The sound quality is not too far away from the Corda Opera -- its DAC fed by the same MP3s (LAME -V3) from my computer -- to be really enjoyable, the more so if you take size and price into consideration.
Has anybody of the people recommending an amp for the D2 considered the fact that the D2 doesn't have a line out? So the only output you can connect the amp to is the headphone out -- more precisely: the built-in headphone amp. What are you expecting from amplifying a signal which you apparently rate as inferior, according to your sound-quality standards? Can further amplification make it any more «accurate»? In turn opinions criticizing lacking gain or power reserves in view of the achievable volume level, resp. -- which would be my only objection (possibly even invalid due to the D2's higher output power compared to my own reference, the i7) -- are in a dinishing minority.
I've just tried the following combination (for the first time, BTW): iAudio7 --> Corda Opera --> K 701. I'm puzzled about the result. Actually I didn't know what to expect. But I certainly didn't expect the i7 --> K 701 combo to downright outclass the i7 --> Opera --> K 701 combo. Yes, that's the clear verdict of my test. The amp, connected to the headphone out, offers not one single advantage compared to the direct connection, the K 701 on the i7's headphone out sounds clearer, fuller, rounder and cleaner.
-- Post edited. Reason: possibly inadequate supposition. (Sorry for that!) --
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facelvega
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Quote:
Funny things can happen when an amplified out is fed into another amp. It definitely changes the behavior of the original signal not to have to drive a transducer-- and this can be both good and bad. Obviously in the case of the output amps built into nearly every dac or preamp on the market, it tends to be good, but with a headphone out, results can vary.
I've had experiences where the sound quality was noticeably, unquestionably improved over the same headphone out by itself, say with my Cowon U2 or TBAAM into a Go-Vibe V6. In both cases, adding in the Go-Vibe brought clarity back to the parts of the signal that were coming apart when they tried to drive a headphone, and the Go-Vibe also added considerable soundstage in the presentation for the U2. However, I've also had cases where double amping was awful, like trying my Hippohifi bloat into a Lunchbox amp: just dreadful results, maybe similar to what you got plugging the D2 into your opera. My point is just that although double-amping can sound awful, it can also sound great with the right two components. After all, the Cmoy and original Headroom amps were built with headphone outs and not line outs in mind.
The D2's output power is quite high, as you say, and when I recently replaced my U2 with a more powerful F2, I came to the conclusion that with my portables, the amp was no longer adding enough to justify its presence. But with a K701? I don't think it helps your point that double amping can be bad to say that the D2 will do a fine enough job driving the headphone. It simply won't. A strong amp that mates well with the D2's line out will improve the K701's sound, or perhaps one could say that the D2 and the K701 are just a bad match in the first place due to the lack of a line out.
| Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif You may also want to have a look at the thread in the headphones forum. I'm the one who has actually heard a comparable combination (with iAudio 7 instead of D2) -- and right now am listening to it again. I wholeheartedly repeat my recommendation to at least try it without an amp. The sound quality is not too far away from the Corda Opera -- its DAC fed by the same MP3s (LAME -V3) from my computer -- to be really enjoyable, the more so if you take size and price into consideration. Has anybody of the people recommending an amp for the D2 considered the fact that the D2 doesn't have a line out? So the only output you can connect the amp to is the headphone out -- more precisely: the built-in headphone amp. What are you expecting from amplifying a signal which you apparently rate as inferior, according to your sound-quality standards? Can further amplification make it any more «accurate»? In turn opinions criticizing lacking gain or power reserves in view of the achievable volume level, resp. -- which would be my only objection (possibly even invalid due to the D2's higher output power compared to my own reference, the i7) -- are in a dinishing majority. |
Funny things can happen when an amplified out is fed into another amp. It definitely changes the behavior of the original signal not to have to drive a transducer-- and this can be both good and bad. Obviously in the case of the output amps built into nearly every dac or preamp on the market, it tends to be good, but with a headphone out, results can vary.
I've had experiences where the sound quality was noticeably, unquestionably improved over the same headphone out by itself, say with my Cowon U2 or TBAAM into a Go-Vibe V6. In both cases, adding in the Go-Vibe brought clarity back to the parts of the signal that were coming apart when they tried to drive a headphone, and the Go-Vibe also added considerable soundstage in the presentation for the U2. However, I've also had cases where double amping was awful, like trying my Hippohifi bloat into a Lunchbox amp: just dreadful results, maybe similar to what you got plugging the D2 into your opera. My point is just that although double-amping can sound awful, it can also sound great with the right two components. After all, the Cmoy and original Headroom amps were built with headphone outs and not line outs in mind.
The D2's output power is quite high, as you say, and when I recently replaced my U2 with a more powerful F2, I came to the conclusion that with my portables, the amp was no longer adding enough to justify its presence. But with a K701? I don't think it helps your point that double amping can be bad to say that the D2 will do a fine enough job driving the headphone. It simply won't. A strong amp that mates well with the D2's line out will improve the K701's sound, or perhaps one could say that the D2 and the K701 are just a bad match in the first place due to the lack of a line out.
JaZZ
Headphoneus Supremus
Quote:
I don't think so. I don't see how a different amp/input section than the Opera/'s can do a better job with amplifying the signal from the i7's/D2's headphone out -- electrically speaking. Furthermore, I have compared the K 701 driven by the i7 with the K 701 driven by the Opera through its DAC, fed by my computer with the same MP3s. There was a quality step in favor of the Opera, but it was small enough to doubt that there's headroom enough for decisive sonic improvement with your supposed optimal (portable) amp for the Cowon player -- in fact it would have to sound better than the Opera, a respected DAC/amp combo, actually an audiophile music center in my book. To be more clear: Considering the different price and device categories you can't claim even more similar sound quality.
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| Originally Posted by facelvega /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...A strong amp that mates well with the D2's line out will improve the K701's sound, or perhaps one could say that the D2 and the K701 are just a bad match in the first place due to the lack of a line out. |
I don't think so. I don't see how a different amp/input section than the Opera/'s can do a better job with amplifying the signal from the i7's/D2's headphone out -- electrically speaking. Furthermore, I have compared the K 701 driven by the i7 with the K 701 driven by the Opera through its DAC, fed by my computer with the same MP3s. There was a quality step in favor of the Opera, but it was small enough to doubt that there's headroom enough for decisive sonic improvement with your supposed optimal (portable) amp for the Cowon player -- in fact it would have to sound better than the Opera, a respected DAC/amp combo, actually an audiophile music center in my book. To be more clear: Considering the different price and device categories you can't claim even more similar sound quality.
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facelvega
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Quote:
In my experience it's perfectly possible that a cheap amp will mate better with a headphone out than will a more expensive one, it seems to be a matter of synergy, and I'm sure an electrical engineer could clearly tell us why some combinations work better than others, but alas it's beyond my expertise to outline the technical explanation.
I'm very surprised that you confirm such good performance from the K701 directly out of your i7. Do I understand correctly that you are really saying it is almost as good as through your Opera? My F2 is rated at a slightly higher output current than your i7 (30mWpc into 16 Ohms vs. 26 for the i7) but is otherwise very similar, and I can definitely hear that it's underpowered for my YH-100 (96dB/V, 150 Ohms, versus 95/62 for the K701) and even a little underpowered on my much more easily-driven Realistic Pro 30 or Koss A250 (110dB/V, 60 ohms for the Koss, don't know offhand for the Realistic). For a headphone like the K701, the insufficiency of the i7's internal amp should be more than subtle, and I'm sorry to have to say that the idea of an i7 performing just one notch below the Opera is absurd, regardless of whether it is from the viewpoint of amplification or d/a conversion, of listener's opinions or of measurable performance, and amounts to misinformation.
| Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think so. I don't see how a different amp/input section than the Opera/'s can do a better job with amplifying the signal from the i7's/D2's headphone out -- electrically speaking. Furthermore, I have compared the K 701 driven by the i7 with the K 701 driven by the Opera through its DAC, fed by my computer with the same MP3s. There was a quality step in favor of the Opera, but it was small enough to doubt that there's headroom enough for decisive sonic improvement with your supposed optimal (portable) amp for the Cowon player -- in fact it would have to sound better than the Opera, a respected DAC/amp combo, actually an audiophile music center in my book. To be more clear: Considering the different price and device categories you can't claim even more similar sound quality. . |
In my experience it's perfectly possible that a cheap amp will mate better with a headphone out than will a more expensive one, it seems to be a matter of synergy, and I'm sure an electrical engineer could clearly tell us why some combinations work better than others, but alas it's beyond my expertise to outline the technical explanation.
I'm very surprised that you confirm such good performance from the K701 directly out of your i7. Do I understand correctly that you are really saying it is almost as good as through your Opera? My F2 is rated at a slightly higher output current than your i7 (30mWpc into 16 Ohms vs. 26 for the i7) but is otherwise very similar, and I can definitely hear that it's underpowered for my YH-100 (96dB/V, 150 Ohms, versus 95/62 for the K701) and even a little underpowered on my much more easily-driven Realistic Pro 30 or Koss A250 (110dB/V, 60 ohms for the Koss, don't know offhand for the Realistic). For a headphone like the K701, the insufficiency of the i7's internal amp should be more than subtle, and I'm sorry to have to say that the idea of an i7 performing just one notch below the Opera is absurd, regardless of whether it is from the viewpoint of amplification or d/a conversion, of listener's opinions or of measurable performance, and amounts to misinformation.
JaZZ
Headphoneus Supremus
Quote:
Thank you! For someone who hasn't tried the combination in question you're quite confident in insulting people.
I'm not saying it is just one notch below the Opera, but it's much closer than I'd expect from a compact portable player. It's certainly less accurate and not quite as audiophile, but there are no glaring faults that I would associate with lack of power, such as lacking dynamics or bass punch or generally thin sound. Its somewhat rounder and smoother characteristic even has a special charm which makes up for the lack of detail, relatively spoken. It would be absurd to expect more from a device like this, with or without double amplification.
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| Originally Posted by facelvega /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...I'm sorry to have to say that the idea of an i7 performing just one notch below the Opera is absurd, regardless of whether it is from the viewpoint of amplification or d/a conversion, of listener's opinions or of measurable performance, and amounts to misinformation. |
Thank you! For someone who hasn't tried the combination in question you're quite confident in insulting people.
I'm not saying it is just one notch below the Opera, but it's much closer than I'd expect from a compact portable player. It's certainly less accurate and not quite as audiophile, but there are no glaring faults that I would associate with lack of power, such as lacking dynamics or bass punch or generally thin sound. Its somewhat rounder and smoother characteristic even has a special charm which makes up for the lack of detail, relatively spoken. It would be absurd to expect more from a device like this, with or without double amplification.
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